'Make in India' for 90 medium combat jets

Srinivas_K

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Yes, there was sanction from the West, but Russia didn't join them. You were still free to use their products, but you just choose not to.



No, if we remove the sanction time (1998-2006), it was still 22 years and LCA hasn't got its FOC yet.
Let's see others:
F15 (1965-1976): 9 years
Su27 (1969-1985): 16 years
F22 (1986-2005): 19 years
Typhoon (1983-2003): 20 years
Rafale (1983-2001): 18 years
J10 (1988-2005): 17 years

SO, the closest one was Typhoon which was the product of multinational cooperation.
Actually, it is quite normal to take so long for any country to develop her first jet. The only problem is Indian scientists keep overstating their capability and understating the difficulty.
why 17 years for a copied Lavi project i.e J10??

India was under sanctions for almost 6 to 7 years. LCA is flying and is ready to be inducted so the times lines are fine.

considering LCA is the first of its kind to India and Indian guys have to design it from the scratch.
 

Srinivas_K

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.

I smell the Russian coming with the MiG 1.44, they were going to Display the Aircraft in next Air show, with an huge announcement


.

That evolved into J20 which is underpowered, less maneuverable and some kind of bomber.
 

Screambowl

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That evolved into J20 which is underpowered, less maneuverable and some kind of bomber.
true,
because Russia won't supply them best of the power plants and China is also struggling to develop their own engine.
 

manutdfan

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Old wine in a new bottle :biggrin2:
Very true. For all I know the winner has already been decide. Yes, it's the Dassault Rafale again. Then why are we giving the French a second chance?

This new tender might just be a very cleverly disguised arm twisting tactic by the Indian govt. It's the same MRCA deal but with the new 'Make in India' tagline, clearly a signal of intent to Dassault that in this case the power lies with the buyer, a nation of 1.2 billion people with bargaining & heckling in their DNA. Basically what the Indian govt. wants the French to do is to open a parallel assembly line in India which they are understandably reluctant to do as it means loss of French jobs, sharing of sensitive technology (given the price is right) and perhaps most importantly, loss of future lucrative after-sales spares/parts & support contracts wherein the actual long-term income is generated. Hell our jets have been crashing incessantly for the last 3 decades we can certainly wait out a few more can't we...and if not the French there's plenty of others to choose from.

Just consider the numbers, the old MRCA tender was worth US$20 billion that was won by a French company with a market cap of US$12-15 billion in which the French govt. has a considerable stake. My point- if we can buy out Dassault itself then why should we settle for only 126 fighters that too at such prohibitive costs and terms? In the current economic scenario of slow growth, financial austerity and huge budget cuts the MRCA is the lifeblood of not only the French aviation industry but the French economy as well. Hence this deal has to be made on our terms. If not this year then certainly in the next couple of years they'll come around.

A lot of bold claims isn't it? Well there's a very good example to substantiate it- the Sukhoi 30MKI. Before the gargantuan IAF order the Russian aviation industry was on the brink of extinction. It was only after the Indian order did the world market wake up to the fantastic possibilities offered by this jet. True the PLAAF had ordered it before us and that too in large quantities but it was the cold war era Su-27 in Soviet PVO configuration (75 purchased & 250+ reversed engineered illegally as Shenyang J-11). It was still a very limited fighter in terms of capability and not many nations took note of it.
The IAF on the other hand, rather than buying jets pre-configured for Soviet/Russia specific missions, tailored it to such an extent that the resultant aircraft turned out to be one of the best fighters in the world second only to the F-22 (in the heavy-class fighters).
In a domino effect, multiple variants of the Su-30 were sold to a dozen countries subsequently- China, Malaysia, Algeria, Indonesia, Vietnam, Venezuela etc. The Russian Air Force itself is now acquiring two different variants- M2 (based on the Chinese MKK) & SM (based on the IAF MKI) after being thoroughly impressed by its capabilities. It's heartening to know that the Malaysian & Algerian variants (MKM & MKA) were heavily inspired by our MKI variant. In fact, the IAF also provides them with pilot training & aircraft maintenance. So basically:
1) We brought back the Russian military-industrial complex from the dead and ensured its survival for the next couple of decades till it's traditional customer- the Russian Air Force returned to shape. Most importantly, it put the Russians back on the world map again and restored their own govt's confidence in it's defense industry to a significant extent.
2) The MKI was a result of IAF/ DRDO/ HAL ingenuity. Till date we are the only airforce in the world that is familiar with the best of both worlds- NATO as well as Russian fighters/tactics/personnel and this clearly reflects in the MKI design. Without this variant the true potential of the Su-30 platform would never have been realised.
3) It provided the Russians with funds to further develop the platform into the Su-34 interdiction/ strike fighter & the Su-35 dedicated air superiority variant which are also being offered for export besides being simultaneously inducted into the RuAF. Basically India & China have together paid for the modernisation of the RuAF. The 5th gen PAK FA/ FGFA owes a lot to this deal particularly Sukhoi which is it's lead contractor

India currently the world's biggest arms importer is by default also the most influential trend-setter in the defense market which is clear from the above example. Many people might find it hard to believe and they'll definitely point out that ' we're beggars not choosers '. I don't blame them for having that mentality. But I ask them to consider the present world scenario: we are in the 21st century in a tripolar world where capitalism is the dominant economic system and we have seen something in the MRCA competition that our cold-war/ non-alignment era ancestors could never have imagined in their wildest dreams- vicious Competition among the world's top defense contractors. Rule of thumb- free market competition invariably ends up benefiting the buyers. I guess this is something the Indian defense establishment has come to realise during the course of the MRCA tender (damn 15 years in all :frusty:) and I'm glad that we didn't succumb to the whims and fancies of some teeny tiny West European nation :yo:

The French have already benefited a lot even without selling India a single aircraft. The very act of selecting the Rafale as the preferred bidder in the MRCA tender in January 2011 coupled with the subsequent performance of the jets in the 2011 Libyan Civil War breathed fresh life into the parent company Dassault who had struggled to secure a single export order till then. Buoyed by the fact that it's aircraft was the clear-cut winner in a surprisingly fair & transparent IAF evaluation process subject to MoD cost evaluations (this is the stage where all the disputes arose), the Rafale suddenly turned into a very attractive and marketable proposition overnight. Dassault then went on the aggressive and started reclaiming lost market share from the Eurofighter Typhoon & Saab Gripen. Till date the Rafale has confirmed sales in Egypt, Qatar & UAE with possible orders from Kuwait (subject to UAE & Qatar procurement) , Malaysia (they generally buy what the IAF buys), Finland (it's basically Rafale vs Gripen) & Canada.
The Canadian case is particularly interesting as it being a traditional American ally had committed to purchasing 65 F-35 Lightning II to replace its F-18 Hornet inventory but it lead to a huge political controversy in 2011 and subsequently the order was canceled in 2012. As of 2014 Dassault and Boeing were in the race to provide a replacement with Dassault offering Canada full ToT (second nation after India). Though the Canadian F-35 procurement and the Indian MRCA deal are completely different programs what is interesting is the timeline and how the events unfolded. I think forum readers are intelligent enough to read between the lines. It is clear that without the confidence of bagging the Indian deal, Dassault would not have made such an aggressive push in the American backyard.
So even before buying the 36 fighters in April 2015 the Indian MRCA has invariably given the Dassault brand a huge worldwide marketing boost. Hence, India as the buyer needs to dictate the terms & conditions of sale else the French stand to lose...a lot!

Rounding up, I feel that the French are one of our most bankable and reliable partners; besides the Russians and Israelis; and it's approach to aircraft development and production is markedly different and unique compared to the American and British industries. The Rafale is indeed a good choice depending upon which aircraft it intends to replace and this is where the confusion arises again. I'll take that up in another post and thanks for tolerating me so far.
 

Srinivas_K

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Nice post !

Since India is a big buyer, we should also aim for local manufacturing and exporting our jets to other countries.

Very true. For all I know the winner has already been decide. Yes, it's the Dassault Rafale again. Then why are we giving the French a second chance?

This new tender might just be a very cleverly disguised arm twisting tactic by the Indian govt. It's the same MRCA deal but with the new 'Make in India' tagline, clearly a signal of intent to Dassault that in this case the power lies with the buyer, a nation of 1.2 billion people with bargaining & heckling in their DNA. Basically what the Indian govt. wants the French to do is to open a parallel assembly line in India which they are understandably reluctant to do as it means loss of French jobs, sharing of sensitive technology (given the price is right) and perhaps most importantly, loss of future lucrative after-sales spares/parts & support contracts wherein the actual long-term income is generated. Hell our jets have been crashing incessantly for the last 3 decades we can certainly wait out a few more can't we...and if not the French there's plenty of others to choose from.

Just consider the numbers, the old MRCA tender was worth US$20 billion that was won by a French company with a market cap of US$12-15 billion in which the French govt. has a considerable stake. My point- if we can buy out Dassault itself then why should we settle for only 126 fighters that too at such prohibitive costs and terms? In the current economic scenario of slow growth, financial austerity and huge budget cuts the MRCA is the lifeblood of not only the French aviation industry but the French economy as well. Hence this deal has to be made on our terms. If not this year then certainly in the next couple of years they'll come around.

A lot of bold claims isn't it? Well there's a very good example to substantiate it- the Sukhoi 30MKI. Before the gargantuan IAF order the Russian aviation industry was on the brink of extinction. It was only after the Indian order did the world market wake up to the fantastic possibilities offered by this jet. True the PLAAF had ordered it before us and that too in large quantities but it was the cold war era Su-27 in Soviet PVO configuration (75 purchased & 250+ reversed engineered illegally as Shenyang J-11). It was still a very limited fighter in terms of capability and not many nations took note of it.
The IAF on the other hand, rather than buying jets pre-configured for Soviet/Russia specific missions, tailored it to such an extent that the resultant aircraft turned out to be one of the best fighters in the world second only to the F-22 (in the heavy-class fighters).
In a domino effect, multiple variants of the Su-30 were sold to a dozen countries subsequently- China, Malaysia, Algeria, Indonesia, Vietnam, Venezuela etc. The Russian Air Force itself is now acquiring two different variants- M2 (based on the Chinese MKK) & SM (based on the IAF MKI) after being thoroughly impressed by its capabilities. It's heartening to know that the Malaysian & Algerian variants (MKM & MKA) were heavily inspired by our MKI variant. In fact, the IAF also provides them with pilot training & aircraft maintenance. So basically:
1) We brought back the Russian military-industrial complex from the dead and ensured its survival for the next couple of decades till it's traditional customer- the Russian Air Force returned to shape. Most importantly, it put the Russians back on the world map again and restored their own govt's confidence in it's defense industry to a significant extent.
2) The MKI was a result of IAF/ DRDO/ HAL ingenuity. Till date we are the only airforce in the world that is familiar with the best of both worlds- NATO as well as Russian fighters/tactics/personnel and this clearly reflects in the MKI design. Without this variant the true potential of the Su-30 platform would never have been realised.
3) It provided the Russians with funds to further develop the platform into the Su-34 interdiction/ strike fighter & the Su-35 dedicated air superiority variant which are also being offered for export besides being simultaneously inducted into the RuAF. Basically India & China have together paid for the modernisation of the RuAF. The 5th gen PAK FA/ FGFA owes a lot to this deal particularly Sukhoi which is it's lead contractor

India currently the world's biggest arms importer is by default also the most influential trend-setter in the defense market which is clear from the above example. Many people might find it hard to believe and they'll definitely point out that ' we're beggars not choosers '. I don't blame them for having that mentality. But I ask them to consider the present world scenario: we are in the 21st century in a tripolar world where capitalism is the dominant economic system and we have seen something in the MRCA competition that our cold-war/ non-alignment era ancestors could never have imagined in their wildest dreams- vicious Competition among the world's top defense contractors. Rule of thumb- free market competition invariably ends up benefiting the buyers. I guess this is something the Indian defense establishment has come to realise during the course of the MRCA tender (damn 15 years in all :frusty:) and I'm glad that we didn't succumb to the whims and fancies of some teeny tiny West European nation :yo:

The French have already benefited a lot even without selling India a single aircraft. The very act of selecting the Rafale as the preferred bidder in the MRCA tender in January 2011 coupled with the subsequent performance of the jets in the 2011 Libyan Civil War breathed fresh life into the parent company Dassault who had struggled to secure a single export order till then. Buoyed by the fact that it's aircraft was the clear-cut winner in a surprisingly fair & transparent IAF evaluation process subject to MoD cost evaluations (this is the stage where all the disputes arose), the Rafale suddenly turned into a very attractive and marketable proposition overnight. Dassault then went on the aggressive and started reclaiming lost market share from the Eurofighter Typhoon & Saab Gripen. Till date the Rafale has confirmed sales in Egypt, Qatar & UAE with possible orders from Kuwait (subject to UAE & Qatar procurement) , Malaysia (they generally buy what the IAF buys), Finland (it's basically Rafale vs Gripen) & Canada.
The Canadian case is particularly interesting as it being a traditional American ally had committed to purchasing 65 F-35 Lightning II to replace its F-18 Hornet inventory but it lead to a huge political controversy in 2011 and subsequently the order was canceled in 2012. As of 2014 Dassault and Boeing were in the race to provide a replacement with Dassault offering Canada full ToT (second nation after India). Though the Canadian F-35 procurement and the Indian MRCA deal are completely different programs what is interesting is the timeline and how the events unfolded. I think forum readers are intelligent enough to read between the lines. It is clear that without the confidence of bagging the Indian deal, Dassault would not have made such an aggressive push in the American backyard.
So even before buying the 36 fighters in April 2015 the Indian MRCA has invariably given the Dassault brand a huge worldwide marketing boost. Hence, India as the buyer needs to dictate the terms & conditions of sale else the French stand to lose...a lot!

Rounding up, I feel that the French are one of our most bankable and reliable partners; besides the Russians and Israelis; and it's approach to aircraft development and production is markedly different and unique compared to the American and British industries. The Rafale is indeed a good choice depending upon which aircraft it intends to replace and this is where the confusion arises again. I'll take that up in another post and thanks for tolerating me so far.
 

manutdfan

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Nice post !

Since India is a big buyer, we should also aim for local manufacturing and exporting our jets to other countries.
Totally agree @Srinivas_K and this is what the French actually fear- that India might turn into a huge and comparatively cheaper manufacturing and maintenance hub for African/ Asian customers thus usurping the parent company.

A good example would be Maruti-Suzuki. Since their partnership began in the 1980s India has become not only Suzuki's biggest market but also it's biggest manufacturing, exporting and R&D hub. And the icing on the cake, Maruti is now officially bigger than Suzuki and who knows in the next 30 years as the Japanese economy keeps on contracting Maruti might end up buying Suzuki. I realise that this ventures into fanciful jingoistic thinking but there is a precedent is right in front of us.
 

manutdfan

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The real war scenario is difficult to predict, India is waging a defensive warfare with lot of reserves.

India is also investing a lot of money on manpads, airdefense systems.

Once Tejas is ready for induction, I think IAF will fast track its induction in numbers. Tejas MK2 is a game changer for sure.
I would also like to add that initial versions of the Tejas might be disappointing for our IAF pilots and might not have the fancy AESA radars or the ubiquitous stealth capabilities or the exotic long-range BVR missiles that most of today's military enthusiasts seem to highly crave over basic performance parameters like agility, maneuverability and other raw flight characteristics; but that doesn't mean that the MoD should submit itself to the whims and fancies of a dissatisfied and finicky IAF and go shopping for foreign fighters again.

It happened once with the HF-24 Marut it should not happen with the LCA/ Tejas again. With time as the aircraft and the technology matures and our industrial base also becomes more familiar with the nuances of designing and producing a 4th gen fighter, later revised versions would definitely be up to the mark if not worse.

The beauty of Tejas lies in the fact that it'll be a sprightly 4+ gen fighter (considering they sort out the engine problems on schedule) which will be able to take advantage of economies of scale and hence would be produced on a massive scale. Here I would like to quote Mr. Parikkar " For every Rafale we can buy 2 Su-30MKIs or 5 LCA/ Tejas ". Not to to mention it's low lifecycle costs in addition to initial low procurement costs.

The Russians have a saying 'Quantity has a Quality all of its own'. Just google 'Sherman vs Tiger' and one might realise just how correct the Russians are.
 

sabari

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I would prefer tajes mark 1 enhansed with few more capablites with westan and Israil technology .it might not to multy role perfectly.but still it cn be a bomber .till tajes mark 2 enters services. Because tajes mark 1 will have some good things which could be utilize.
 

sabari

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Ada should start work on twin tail and radder which is needed for increasing performance and stealth capabilities.
 

manutdfan

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I would prefer tajes mark 1 enhansed with few more capablites with westan and Israil technology .it might not to multy role perfectly.but still it cn be a bomber .till tajes mark 2 enters services. Because tajes mark 1 will have some good things which could be utilize.
Good point but I beg you not to call it a bomber. Have a good look at the Tejas and then have a good hard look at it's nearest competitor the PAF JF-17 and then consider my argument that the Tejas will be a competent if not born dogfighter. I have something called an eye test. If it's streamlined and all pleasing on the eyes it's definitely a dofighter and if it's a bit harsh or bulky or curved in the wrong places then it'll always have other roles to fill. For instance, MiG-21 & MiG-29. Both look terrific and both are damn good fighters. Take the MiG-23 designed as a long range fighter/ interceptor and intended to replace the MiG-21 but looked all wrong right from the beginning and ultimately ended up becoming an attack aircraft. In my book the LCA/ Tejas gives me enough of the right vibes.

Also multi-role is too overrated. What's the point of having all the fancy air-to-ground gadgets when you can't accomplish your primary task and that is beating your enemy in the air? It adds unnecessary weight to an air superiority dogfighter while at the same time turns it into a bomber which the pilots hate. Also pilots earlier being trained for air-to-air missions will now have to additionally train for air-to-ground missions. End result- Jack of all trades but Master of None. Ground attack is always best performed by specifically designed attack aircraft like the MiG-27, Su-22 or Su-25.
One of the major technical reasons why the F-16IN lost the MRCA competitions was it's weight. The F-16E/F models look plain ugly and bulky compared to the earlier C/D models. In it's quest to become an enhanced medium range all fulfilling multi-role fighter it ended up becoming unnecessarily heavy. Consequently, the F-16IN could not perform the IAF's minimum reqd sustained turn rate of 24 or 26 deg/sec (correction needed). Alas, the West's most potent and iconic dogfighter had lost it's bite.

The Tejas by extensively using composites is now officially the lightest 4th gen combat jet in the world and that's one half of the puzzle solved. The other half of the puzzle is the availability of the American GE F414 engines. Only then will the Tejas have the necessary thrust/weight ratio, max sustained and instantaneous turn rates; and high alpha performance (basic performance parameters, I'm no aerospace engineer) to become a potent dogfighter. Emphasis should also be placed on-
1) AESA radars with Low Probability of Intercept and Active Cancellation capability
2) Enhancing the BVR envelope and combat capability
3) IRST from the Russians and it's further development
4) HMS with an even higher off-boresight WVR missile capability
 

manutdfan

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Ada should start work on twin tail and radder which is needed for increasing performance and stealth capabilities.
Stealth yes but I don't think that it should be done at the cost of agility/ maneuverability. But stealth would be more prominent in the 5th gen HAL AMCA.
 

Srinivas_K

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I agree on your views but F16 is an ultimate dogfighter, during the evaluation tests in early 1980's it out performed Jaguar in ground attacking role as well.

The conformal and other new gadgets might have made this fighter heavy and less turn rate, But when configured correctly and supported by AWACs and air to air refulellers. F16 is still a potent platform.

India needs a fighter which comes under the category of ultimate dog fighter. Since things at the chinese front are not looking good.



Good point but I beg you not to call it a bomber. Have a good look at the Tejas and then have a good hard look at it's nearest competitor the PAF JF-17 and then consider my argument that the Tejas will be a competent if not born dogfighter. I have something called an eye test. If it's streamlined and all pleasing on the eyes it's definitely a dofighter and if it's a bit harsh or bulky or curved in the wrong places then it'll always have other roles to fill. For instance, MiG-21 & MiG-29. Both look terrific and both are damn good fighters. Take the MiG-23 designed as a long range fighter/ interceptor and intended to replace the MiG-21 but looked all wrong right from the beginning and ultimately ended up becoming an attack aircraft. In my book the LCA/ Tejas gives me enough of the right vibes.

Also multi-role is too overrated. What's the point of having all the fancy air-to-ground gadgets when you can't accomplish your primary task and that is beating your enemy in the air? It adds unnecessary weight to an air superiority dogfighter while at the same time turns it into a bomber which the pilots hate. Also pilots earlier being trained for air-to-air missions will now have to additionally train for air-to-ground missions. End result- Jack of all trades but Master of None. Ground attack is always best performed by specifically designed attack aircraft like the MiG-27, Su-22 or Su-25.
One of the major technical reasons why the F-16IN lost the MRCA competitions was it's weight. The F-16E/F models look plain ugly and bulky compared to the earlier C/D models. In it's quest to become an enhanced medium range all fulfilling multi-role fighter it ended up becoming unnecessarily heavy. Consequently, the F-16IN could not perform the IAF's minimum reqd sustained turn rate of 24 or 26 deg/sec (correction needed). Alas, the West's most potent and iconic dogfighter had lost it's bite.

The Tejas by extensively using composites is now officially the lightest 4th gen combat jet in the world and that's one half of the puzzle solved. The other half of the puzzle is the availability of the American GE F414 engines. Only then will the Tejas have the necessary thrust/weight ratio, max sustained and instantaneous turn rates; and high alpha performance (basic performance parameters, I'm no aerospace engineer) to become a potent dogfighter. Emphasis should also be placed on-
1) AESA radars with Low Probability of Intercept and Active Cancellation capability
2) Enhancing the BVR envelope and combat capability
3) IRST from the Russians and it's further development
4) HMS with an even higher off-boresight WVR missile capability
 

manutdfan

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I agree on your views but F16 is an ultimate dogfighter, during the evaluation tests in early 1980's it out performed Jaguar in ground attacking role as well.

The conformal and other new gadgets might have made this fighter heavy and less turn rate, But when configured correctly and supported by AWACs and air to air refulellers. F16 is still a potent platform.

India needs a fighter which comes under the category of ultimate dog fighter. Since things at the chinese front are not looking good.
Agreed. Just need to shed the extra flab.
 

jaci_zenfone2

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Why are they playing with IAF?

They are buying many types of aircrafts and making it difficult to maintain them.

At the same time killing domestic projects, the middle men who benefit from foreign defense deals are also playing their part in crippling Indian Armed forces, they are successful in the past decades.
Domestic programs and JVs' and many tenders to buy a fighter jets .... seems not a good idea.

If France refuses for Tot they should also scrap the 36 Rafale jets tender and go for other aircrafts.
I think they are floating the tender
Why are they playing with IAF?

They are buying many types of aircrafts and making it difficult to maintain them.

At the same time killing domestic projects, the middle men who benefit from foreign defense deals are also playing their part in crippling Indian Armed forces, they are successful in the past decades.
Domestic programs and JVs' and many tenders to buy a fighter jets .... seems not a good idea.

If France refuses for Tot they should also scrap the 36 Rafale jets tender and go for other aircrafts.
they are doing this because
Why are they playing with IAF?

They are buying many types of aircrafts and making it difficult to maintain them.

At the same time killing domestic projects, the middle men who benefit from foreign defense deals are also playing their part in crippling Indian Armed forces, they are successful in the past decades.
Domestic programs and JVs' and many tenders to buy a fighter jets .... seems not a good idea.

If France refuses for Tot they should also scrap the 36 Rafale jets tender and go for other aircrafts.
I think they are doing this because they want a better deal from france.Maybe there are going to be certain changes in RFI.Maybe we get a lesser price for rafale.
 

no smoking

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why 17 years for a copied Lavi project i.e J10??
Yes, right, if you see J10 as a copy of Lavi, then Tejas could be called as a copy of Mirage 2000 by the same standard.

India was under sanctions for almost 6 to 7 years. LCA is flying and is ready to be inducted so the times lines are fine.
First I already deduct 8 years "sanction period" for LCA;
Second, LCA is not ready yet.

considering LCA is the first of its kind to India and Indian guys have to design it from the scratch.
I understand that.
The question is why Indian scientists kept giving wrong deadline for almost 15 years?
It clearly show there is something wrong, either their statement of the progress, or their estimation about their capabilities.
 

Pulkit

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Yes, right, if you see J10 as a copy of Lavi, then Tejas could be called as a copy of Mirage 2000 by the same standard.
.
Kindly elaborate on the similarities you see in LCA Tejas and Mirage.
We did not rework on an old design we started from scratch.
First I already deduct 8 years "sanction period" for LCA;
Second, LCA is not ready yet.
.
What is the average development period for an fighter aircraft for developed countries?

.
I understand that.
The question is why Indian scientists kept giving wrong deadline for almost 15 years?
It clearly show there is something wrong, either their statement of the progress, or their estimation about their capabilities.
I will agree with you here but ....
1)we never had the structure to design aircraft we still do not.
2)No manpower(Trained) was available.
3)As you said sanctions
4)Variation in requirements by the sole buyer(IAF).
5)Bad project management
6)No will or desire
7)Foreign Lobby
8)Love for foran A/C for kickbacks


If a technology is to be demonstrated in 5 years and it crosses 5 and is there in 6th or 7th you cannot go around and change it.

Manohar Parrikar sir has also commented on it saying that Requirements must not be comic book style i.e. fictional.


Edit: Just read that you already mentioned the timelines of various countries....
1)They have been developing these A/C for decades now and they still take Decades to make a new one.
2)We jumped to 4th Gen aircraft After Marut I believe 4.5
3)Fly by wire and other techs are unique
4)They have the infrastructure in place and more than one organization working on development
5)They already have buyers to there products which helps them fund it better
6)Average design period is 19-20 Years for a fighter aircraft we did it in Say 22-25 We will have FOC by 2016(Hope they do not miss deadline of 2016).

Which is definitely not a bad time span.




remember they are called developed countries and we are Developing Still we are able to design one of our own.(Engine not ours yet for this but we have a engine of our own also)
 
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Srinivas_K

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Yes, right, if you see J10 as a copy of Lavi, then Tejas could be called as a copy of Mirage 2000 by the same standard.



First I already deduct 8 years "sanction period" for LCA;
Second, LCA is not ready yet.



I understand that.
The question is why Indian scientists kept giving wrong deadline for almost 15 years?
It clearly show there is something wrong, either their statement of the progress, or their estimation about their capabilities.
There is lot of difference between Mirage and LCA, all delta winged aircraft are not evolved from Mirages.
 

PaliwalWarrior

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if MMRCA asked for 108 planes to be mfg in india

what is so special about 90 being Made in Inida ?

it is just another marketing gimmick of modi

and it will allow all to come and bid with revised prices that is dasault will quote new prices with egypt prices as benchmark

stupid move

if MMRCA had to be cancelled the alternative should have been

buy more Su30 MKI and induct more Tejas Mk1 and double up efforts on Tejas Mk2 & AMCA
 

3The Crossbow

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if MMRCA asked for 108 planes to be mfg in india

what is so special about 90 being Made in Inida ?

it is just another marketing gimmick of modi

and it will allow all to come and bid with revised prices that is dasault will quote new prices with egypt prices as benchmark

stupid move

if MMRCA had to be cancelled the alternative should have been

buy more Su30 MKI and induct more Tejas Mk1 and double up efforts on Tejas Mk2 & AMCA
there is no gimmick they are not going to buy more rafale . wait for the indo-russo pact on fgfa things will be clear.

we cannot afford rafale for now.. even these 36 were bought to maintain diplomatic ties and not attract a mockery from int arms suppliers.

at most you will see one more squad of rafale adding to 36 nothing more nothing less.
 

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