Maiden tests of air-launched BrahMos from November

[Anupu]

A Letter to @Gessler​

Ok, you are right. I know Brahmos can’t be launched at its full speed and first it falls freely for some moments. Thus, it can’t attain mach 5+ speed any way. But I was talking about those missiles which boost immediately after release, like Astra. Assume Astra releases from MKI by its own speed at mach 2 (max speed mach 4). Then it will obviously fly initially at mach 2++ (because of simple science)! Potential energy transform to Kinetic energy by speed of fighter as well as from missile booster. If one says that a missile flies only at its own speed, then it is a plain violation of Physics law. You said missile can’t exceed its max speed. It is right, but in a different way. I explain it to you in a hypothetical (funny) way.



Let GOD (yes, the Almighty) hold a Brahmos-NG in his hand and the missile has started boosting. When he will throw it (like we throw a stone), then imagine what will happen? Will Brahmos move forward at mere mach 3 speed? Answer is a big NO. NG would disintegrate totally and ultimately would get into dust because of the sheer lightning speed at which GOD threw it (it was boosting while throwing). It will attain speed of light for just a nano-second before completely disappearing into dust in the air. Remember top speed is mach 3.5; then how could it move forward at such high (unreal) velocity?!! Answer – Kinematic energy.



Now MKI is not GOD. You are right when you say Brahmos first detach itself from aircraft, then its ramjet takes off. But if we consider Astra like missiles, they will receive the extra speed post-release though the momentum could lost after 3-4 seconds and then it will travel purely by its own speed. Our area faced power cut-off for long 7 hours and just now, electricity has come. That’s why commenting so late. I know you will completely dismiss my theory; but consider for a moment (Atleast the GOD part). You would understand what I wanted to convey you yesterday.

Yours sincerely

Superdefender
​

Regular DFI Member​

Dude, see what is throwing, it is rate of change of momentum, or force, that needs acceleration. The aircraft is not in much acceleration at the point when it launches a missile. Now let's assume it is at 1.5 M and hence the initial velocity of Brahmos missile is 1.5 M. Now the engine will kick in after a time but even then let's assume it kicks in on the same moment. The missile will gain velocity due to the ramjet engine on board, but the ramjet has a maximum topspeed of say 3M. Eventually brahmos will stabalize on it.

If MKI was to accelerate very quickly and then launch a say hypothetical scramjet missile, it can hypothetically it can take speeds up to 5-7M because the scramjet engine has the capacity to reach those speeds, I think something like that is what zircon/ Brahmos II ALCM will do. Even in the case of Brahmos II I think the missile will be launched from a cruising speed probably with a rocket booster.

 

[Superdefender]

@Anupu, that's what I tried to write in my previous post (before the letter). Read that before commenting. Missile will first accelerate, gaining net speed of fighter and its own booster; but after some meters it will stabilize at its max. speed. But this principle does not apply to missiles like Brahmos. What Gessler was saying that even if missile engine boosts at the same time as of releasing from aircraft, its speed will not exceed its max speed. How is that possible? It is just rape of Science law!!

 

[aerokan]

Brahmos fired from MKI is a bad example to make your arguments in this case.. Use Nirbhay (don't say nirbhaya pls) on MKI as example to prove your points.. Carry on [emoji5] [emoji5]

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[Superdefender]

Brahmos fired from MKI is a bad example to make your arguments in this case.. Use Nirbhay (don't say nirbhaya pls) on MKI as example to prove your points.. Carry on [emoji5] [emoji5]

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I already posted before that this principle was not applicable to Brahmos in last two posts!! Why are you guys not reading posts before commenting?

 

[Superdefender]

Brahmos fired from MKI is a bad example to make your arguments in this case.. Use Nirbhay (don't say nirbhaya pls) on MKI as example to prove your points.. Carry on [emoji5] [emoji5]

Sent from my 6045I using Tapatalk

I already posted before that this principle was not applicable to Brahmos in last two posts!! Why are you guys not reading posts before commenting?

 

[aerokan]

I already posted before that this principle was not applicable to Brahmos in last two posts!! Why are you guys not reading posts before commenting?

My comment is not specifically for you only.. Why use the same brahmos example if you don't think it is a good one? I don't see either side of the argument explaining what happens when a nirbhay missile is fired from MKI whether it will be 1.5M+0.8M or simply 0.8M which would have clearly concluded the argument. Anyways, ignore my rant and continue with your discussions

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[Anupu]

I already posted before that this principle was not applicable to Brahmos in last two posts!! Why are you guys not reading posts before commenting?

Because you were not very clear, I apologize for not being able to understand your argument, all I wanted to say was that Brahmos with a ramjet engine can't go beyond 3M because the ramjet engine needs to slow they air down to sub-sonic speeds for combustion.

 

[Gessler]

A Letter to @Gessler​

Ok, you are right. I know Brahmos can’t be launched at its full speed and first it falls freely for some moments. Thus, it can’t attain mach 5+ speed any way. But I was talking about those missiles which boost immediately after release, like Astra. Assume Astra releases from MKI by its own speed at mach 2 (max speed mach 4). Then it will obviously fly initially at mach 2++ (because of simple science)! Potential energy transform to Kinetic energy by speed of fighter as well as from missile booster. If one says that a missile flies only at its own speed, then it is a plain violation of Physics law. You said missile can’t exceed its max speed. It is right, but in a different way. I explain it to you in a hypothetical (funny) way.



Let GOD (yes, the Almighty) hold a Brahmos-NG in his hand and the missile has started boosting. When he will throw it (like we throw a stone), then imagine what will happen? Will Brahmos move forward at mere mach 3 speed? Answer is a big NO. NG would disintegrate totally and ultimately would get into dust because of the sheer lightning speed at which GOD threw it (it was boosting while throwing). It will attain speed of light for just a nano-second before completely disappearing into dust in the air. Remember top speed is mach 3.5; then how could it move forward at such high (unreal) velocity?!! Answer – Kinematic energy.



Now MKI is not GOD. You are right when you say Brahmos first detach itself from aircraft, then its ramjet takes off. But if we consider Astra like missiles, they will receive the extra speed post-release though the momentum could lost after 3-4 seconds and then it will travel purely by its own speed. Our area faced power cut-off for long 7 hours and just now, electricity has come. That’s why commenting so late. I know you will completely dismiss my theory; but consider for a moment (Atleast the GOD part). You would understand what I wanted to convey you yesterday.

Yours sincerely

Superdefender
​

Regular DFI Member​

I didn't read all of it, but I'm damn sure I stepped in only when you said BrahMos-NG could achieve Mach 5+. I just showed you how that's not possible, regardless of the speed of MKI. The limiting factor is the missile's own engine - the Ramjet will fail to properly combust if airspeed is so much higher than specified limit. Thus, even if hypothetically the missile is dropped at Mach 2 (an impossibility in itself), the limitations of the missile's Ramjet will prevent it from accelerating any further than it's specified limits.

I suggest you read my first line in Post #11332 to understand how BrahMos and AAMs are fundamentally different in the area of propulsion. One is air-breathing, which means the speed & compression of the air entering the inlet needs to be within certain parameters if the engine is to combust properly.

Most types of AAMs on the other hand, while being under propulsion only for a short period of time, can make use of direct transfer of velocity as the thrust is provided by a rocket motor which can function regardless of airspeed and without need of any air inlet.

 

[harsh]

I didn't read all of it, but I'm damn sure I stepped in only when you said BrahMos-NG could achieve Mach 5+. I just showed you how that's not possible, regardless of the speed of MKI. The limiting factor is the missile's own engine - the Ramjet will fail to properly combust if airspeed is so much higher than specified limit. Thus, even if hypothetically the missile is dropped at Mach 2 (an impossibility in itself), the limitations of the missile's Ramjet will prevent it from accelerating any further than it's specified limits.

I suggest you read my first line in Post #11332 to understand how BrahMos and AAMs are fundamentally different in the area of propulsion. One is air-breathing, which means the speed & compression of the air entering the inlet needs to be within certain parameters if the engine is to combust properly.

Most types of AAMs on the other hand, while being under propulsion only for a short period of time, can make use of direct transfer of velocity as the thrust is provided by a rocket motor which can function regardless of airspeed and without need of any air inlet.

Brother brahmos NG is still in development phase. I don't know its ramjet capability but from your post I am sure you know something which is top secret.
Well obviously max speed can not be achieved In beginning but in somewhere in flight path. Now engine starting is decided by programme and the height at which aircraft is flying. Kinetic energy can't be disappeared unless something is resisting it.
Speed of missile is dependent on design I agree but who says that the design is same for air launch brahmos and ground based brahmos.
There are changes. Less fuel in air launch. Minus booster and extra stabilisation is there. Come on why do think ramjet is cannot go beyond mach 3.
I am quoting from wiki here.
Ramjets work most efficiently at supersonic speeds around Mach 3 (2,284 mph; 3,675 km/h). This type of engine can operate up to speeds of Mach 6 (4,567 mph; 7,350 km/h).

So ramjet can go to mach 6 though it is not as efficient in burning fuel but it can in favourable conditions.

 

[Anupu]

Brother brahmos NG is still in development phase. I don't know its ramjet capability but from your post I am sure you know something which is top secret.
Well obviously max speed can not be achieved In beginning but in somewhere in flight path. Now engine starting is decided by programme and the height at which aircraft is flying. Kinetic energy can't be disappeared unless something is resisting it.
Speed of missile is dependent on design I agree but who says that the design is same for air launch brahmos and ground based brahmos.
There are changes. Less fuel in air launch. Minus booster and extra stabilisation is there. Come on why do think ramjet is cannot go beyond mach 3.
I am quoting from wiki here.
Ramjets work most efficiently at supersonic speeds around Mach 3 (2,284 mph; 3,675 km/h). This type of engine can operate up to speeds of Mach 6 (4,567 mph; 7,350 km/h).

So ramjet can go to mach 6 though it is not as efficient in burning fuel but it can in favourable conditions.

Ramjet can only go till 3M because it needs the air to decelerate to sub-sonic speeds inside it to cause combustion. A ramjet that can work on higher speeds of air-inflow would be called a "Scramjet". That is something that is tough to do that is why it is under development. And that is why you don't see ramjet powered missiles to go above 3 M. Zircon/ Brahmos II will probably sport such a engine.

 

[harsh]

Ramjet can only go till 3M because it needs the air to decelerate to sub-sonic speeds inside it to cause combustion. A ramjet that can work on higher speeds of air-inflow would be called a "Scramjet". That is something that is tough to do that is why it is under development. And that is why you don't see ramjet powered missiles to go above 3 M. Zircon/ Brahmos II will probably sport such a engine.

Man I quoted Wikipedia here u can read if you have any link to support yours then you are welcome

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramjet

You are second after gessler to make such a statement and want to prove Wikipedia wrong but ok give me a link.

 

[Gessler]

Brother brahmos NG is still in development phase. I don't know its ramjet capability but from your post I am sure you know something which is top secret.
Well obviously max speed can not be achieved In beginning but in somewhere in flight path. Now engine starting is decided by programme and the height at which aircraft is flying. Kinetic energy can't be disappeared unless something is resisting it.
Speed of missile is dependent on design I agree but who says that the design is same for air launch brahmos and ground based brahmos.
There are changes. Less fuel in air launch. Minus booster and extra stabilisation is there. Come on why do think ramjet is cannot go beyond mach 3.

There already is an air-launched Yakhont called Kh-61 which is pretty much the same as the current version of ALCM BrahMos-A. Please look it up and see if you find any changes in the Ramjet or specified speed limit between the ground and air-launched versions. You won't find any because they're the same. The only changes are made with the intention of making the missile 'airworthy'; like modifying the nose cap, the control surfaces if required, etc. so that it can fit under a plane.

Secondly, I never said it cannot go beyond X speed. BrahMos-A has a max of 2.8 to 3.0 Mach while the upcoming BrahMos-NG has upto 3.5 Mach, thanks to new Ramjet engine (as compared to older BrahMos; but this will be common across all variants of NG, not specific to ALCM version).

All I said was that if a Ramjet is designed to allow a maximum airspeed of 2.8M or so, going much further than that is impossible even if the launch aircraft released the missile at it's own max speed of 2M. Because the engine limits the airspeed to within the parameters where it can properly function.

I am quoting from wiki here.
Ramjets work most efficiently at supersonic speeds around Mach 3 (2,284 mph; 3,675 km/h). This type of engine can operate up to speeds of Mach 6 (4,567 mph; 7,350 km/h).

'Ramjets' is too vague a word. It's like generalizing all turbofan engines as the same. There are different thresholds for each Ramjet engine and are specific to the conditions where it can operate.

Bottomline is, if the ground-launched Ramjet is limited to 2.8M, in no feasible way can you make the same Ramjet go to 5M just because the missile is dropped from air. If you're gonna bring up the aspect of release velocity, lemme tell you that to the Ramjet, it hardly makes a difference - even the ground-launched version leaves the missile with enough velocity and airspeed to start the Ramjet.

So ramjet can go to mach 6 though it is not as efficient in burning fuel but it can in favourable conditions.

I'm sorry but the Ramjet is the same across all variants of existing BrahMos, with minor tuning differences. If the ALCM can reach 5 or 6 Mach, it means the GLCM/AShM can also reach the same speeds. Can they? Even in a hi-hi flight profile? No. The maximum given speed is 2.8 to 3 Mach and it will be the same across all variants.

When the actual air-launch takes place - you will have conclusive evidence and hopefully then you can all shut up.

 

[Gessler]

Ramjet can only go till 3M because it needs the air to decelerate to sub-sonic speeds inside it to cause combustion. A ramjet that can work on higher speeds of air-inflow would be called a "Scramjet". That is something that is tough to do that is why it is under development. And that is why you don't see ramjet powered missiles to go above 3 M. Zircon/ Brahmos II will probably sport such a engine.

No, dude. Ramjets can indeed go upto 5 or 6 Mach, if they're actually designed & certified for that threshold (the BrahMos/Yakhont Ramjet is not).

Scramjet is an entirely different type of engine. The major difference is that a Scramjet has no moving parts and it can sustain speeds well upto 15 Mach or more, again depending on design & specified threshold.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

Everyone has upgraded their missile many times to reduce weight & increase speed & range, can we make another variant of Brahmos with a range like Exocet such that we can use it on Mig29K in large numbers & we don't have to import AL AShMs.

Mini Brahmos with 1 Ton lower weight and 20% higher speed with same declared range is already in making.

 

[Gessler]

Mini Brahmos with 1 Ton lower weight and 20% higher speed with same declared range is already in making.

Yes, that's the BrahMos-NG. It was previously known as BrahMos-Mini.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

When

Yes, that's the BrahMos-NG. It was previously known as BrahMos-Mini.

When does Mini Brahmos come in? Any Idea?

This Missile has a lot more utility. It is suitable as an unmatched sand off weapon and a very suitable submarine fire anti ship missile. It can kill any ship just with its Kinetic energy.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

Ramjet can only go till 3M because it needs the air to decelerate to sub-sonic speeds inside it to cause combustion. A ramjet that can work on higher speeds of air-inflow would be called a "Scramjet". That is something that is tough to do that is why it is under development. And that is why you don't see ramjet powered missiles to go above 3 M. Zircon/ Brahmos II will probably sport such a engine.

Brahmos NG is remjet powered and Its speed is Mach 3.5. Brahmos NG with Ramjet planned for higher speed also. It is proposed to be taken at mach 5.0.

 

[Gessler]

When


When does Mini Brahmos come in? Any Idea?

This Missile has a lot more utility. It is suitable as an unmatched sand off weapon and a very suitable submarine fire anti ship missile. It can kill any ship just with its Kinetic energy.

I'm not sure about induction dates but we should definitely see many test-firings within the end of this decade.

It's principle uses are likely to be the ALCM and SLCM versions.

 

[Gessler]

Brahmos NG is remjet powered and Its speed is Mach 3.5. Brahmos NG with Ramjet planned for higher speed also. It is proposed to be taken at mach 5.0.

Erm....nope. M3.5 is about as fast as BrahMos-NG will go.

After this, all R&D regarding Ramjet cruise missiles will be severely curtailed - limited to electronic enhancements at most. Because after this, the BrahMos-II with the Scramjet will come in both ALCM and ground-launched versions, with ship-based variants also available.

It is said that even the proposed Ramjet-powered LRCM (600-1000km range at max 3.2 mach) has been put on the back burner and maybe even cancelled because of the emergence of BrahMos-II proof of concept in Russian scramjet developments.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

Erm....nope. M3.5 is about as fast as BrahMos-NG will go.

After this, all R&D regarding Ramjet cruise missiles will be severely curtailed - limited to electronic enhancements at most. Because after this, the BrahMos-II with the Scramjet will come in both ALCM and ground-launched versions, with ship-based variants also available.

It is said that even the proposed Ramjet-powered LRCM (600-1000km range at max 3.2 mach) has been put on the back burner and maybe even cancelled because of the emergence of BrahMos-II proof of concept in Russian scramjet developments.

Yes LRCM was proposed to be tested in 2014. Do not know what happened since then. Do you have any idea of Multi target missile which was planned to be tested in 2014? It was a missile with small glide bomb type of small warhead which shall glide to the target after release from mother missile.