Maharana Pratap of Mewar

Bhadra

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I want to prove nothing more than this,

The law of succession amongst Hindus is very clear


Elder son is the karta in HUF, amongst the nobility more so,

Present incumbent on the throne of Mewar is a usurper.

What troubled water am I playing with? this is a fact
@pkroyal

What I meant is that it is of no consequences.....

Who is the Rana of Mewar does not matter significantly when it is part of Rajsthan and not an independent state.

Otherwise the elder one is quite well educated and fine but was declared insane at the right time..
 
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Bhadra

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It was this coucil, I suppose, which intervened when Rana Pratap was denied throne and was going out of capital. Also, the Pitrahanta son of Kumbha could not enjoy his crown due to this council which never accepted him.
The situation among Rathores of Jodhpur was different with Maldeo ruling with heavy hand.
You call it council or whatever but it is the elders of five sub clans of Sisodia of Mewar like Shakhatawat, Chundawatb etc who have a say in choosing the Maharana.
 

Virendra

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Compromising with enemies who have beheaded your half population and looted your woman temple and wealth.
I will rather go and live in a jungle and fight a life long war against them instead of compromising with them
This has been debated before.
Behavior of Kingdoms and course of history is not just about decisions of some individuals.
You're looking back at history with a hindsight, sitting in a 21st century nation.
This nationalism is not more than 2 centuries old.
Politically and militarily India was a loose colony of States when these invasions tooks place.
State mindedness prevailed, not the nationalism as we see it today.
So the Marathas didn't think twice before raiding a drought hit Rajputana and Rajputs didn't try to save them from Abdali.

As far as alliances are concerned, there were plenty of them and partially succesfull too.
But these were only last minute reactive measures that were never backed with proper research on the enemy and his idelogy.

On the contrary, enemies like Mahmud for example were like this -
"Mahmud of Ghazni had a full fledged department of Secret Intelligence known as 'Diwani-i-Shaghul-i-Ashraf-i-Mamlukat' employing both men and women as spies who travelled in disguise collecting vital secret information for their Sultan"
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...atest-kings-indian-history-75.html#post579737

Regards,
Virendra
 

Pratap

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This has been debated before.
Behavior of Kingdoms and course of history is not just about decisions of some individuals.
You're looking back at history with a hindsight, sitting in a 21st century nation.
This nationalism is not more than 2 centuries old.
Politically and militarily India was a loose colony of States when these invasions tooks place.
State mindedness prevailed, not the nationalism as we see it today.
So the Marathas didn't think twice before raiding a drought hit Rajputana and Rajputs didn't try to save them from Abdali.

As far as alliances are concerned, there were plenty of them and partially succesfull too.
But these were only last minute reactive measures that were never backed with proper research on the enemy and his idelogy.

On the contrary, enemies like Mahmud for example were like this -

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...atest-kings-indian-history-75.html#post579737

Regards,
Virendra
On Mahmud's part, I think that it was possible because of his kingdom being large and he belonged to a religion which is made for aggressive destruction of other religions, so all Muslims of other parts might have acted as spies. The spy system as devised in Kautilya Arthasastra is as complex( accounting for technological backwardness) as modern day world. The text was intact during Rajput era and so I think that Rajput rulers not being able to use their spies effectively was more due to their being petty states rather than lack of strategic alertness.
How would Chauhans collect information about Ghurids and their moves in Afghanistan?
Krishnadevaraya of Tuluva dynasty did employ spies who provided him details of Gajapati kingdom .
Mahmud's victories were more due to his vast number of troops ,excellent armoury and fanatic zeal of Turks than spying. Mahmud could gain 20,000 freebooters , could any Hindu king have been able to be in such position?
 

Virendra

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As far as the question of Mewar's resistance is concerned. It worked because of many factors, not just the stubborn patriotism of Pratap and his kin.
Unlike Amber located at north east corner of Rajputana (closest to Delhi-Agra), Mewar was a State in south Rajasthan and had natural defense in the mountains and forests of Aravali. The range attains its prime there and degenerates going north east.
A part of Mewar also consisted of fertile plains. (It was this part that went to Mughals and where Pratap banned his people from growing crops as it would obviously empower the enemy).
Mewar though became a question of prestige for Akbar, it wasn't otherwise as important & practical a strategic objective for Mughals as :
a) having foothold in Ajmer (central Rajputana) where Aravali gave a gap away for Mughals to carve the desired highway to Arabian sea ports.
b) thereby driving a wedge and bifurcating Rajputana into two parts, for eating it later piece by piece.

Aurangzeb's timing of jaziya imposition right after Jaswant Singh's death; interference in Marwar succession; consequent war with them - inform us of what was of more practical importance to Mughals.
Having said that, all this doesn't belittle the courage & character of Mewaris for what they managed with fewer resources.

Regards,
Virendra
 

Pratap

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State mindedness prevailed, not the nationalism as we see it today.
I agree though we should note that state mindedness also is a form of mini nationalism. The problem was that our political system was too tribal to form strong centralized states. Even Vijaynagar suffered from this . A system based on clans rather than unflinching loyalty a dynastic state was doom of Indian civilization.
 

Pratap

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As far as the question of Mewar's resistance is concerned. It worked because of many factors, not just the stubborn patriotism of Pratap and his kin.
Unlike Amber located at north east corner of Rajputana (closest to Delhi-Agra), Mewar was a State in south Rajasthan and had natural defense in the mountains and forests of Aravali. The range attains its prime there and degenerates going north east.
A part of Mewar also consisted of fertile plains. (It was this part that went to Mughals and where Pratap banned his people from growing crops as it would obviously empower the enemy).
Mewar though became a question of prestige for Akbar, it wasn't otherwise as important & practical a strategic objective for Mughals as :
a) having foothold in Ajmer (central Rajputana) where Aravali gave a gap away for Mughals to carve the desired highway to Arabian sea ports.
b) thereby driving a wedge and bifurcating Rajputana into two parts, for eating it later piece by piece.

Aurangzeb's timing of jaziya imposition right after Jaswant Singh's death; interference in Marwar succession; consequent war with them - inform us of what was of more practical importance to Mughals.
Having said that, all this doesn't belittle the courage & character of Mewaris for what they managed with fewer resources.

Regards,
Virendra
Great post and I agree completely though I would still rank Mewar higher than any state in Rajasthan. There is no state in entire world which faced largest empires for centuries and Mewar's soil is " Bana hai Apne Satitva ki raksharth Jwala ki dhadhakati lapto me apne ko Bhasmibhoot kardene wali Veeranganao se". Which state in world history( forget about India) fought with empires one after another, for centuries, suffered immense losses and yet preserved its honour? Slave dynasty, Khiljis, Lodis, Tughlaqs and Mughals were one of richest empires in world( after Chinese ) and all of them were resisted by that state.
 

Virendra

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On Mahmud's part, I think that it was possible because of his kingdom being large and he belonged to a religion which is made for aggressive destruction of other religions, so all Muslims of other parts might have acted as spies. The spy system as devised in Kautilya Arthasastra is as complex( accounting for technological backwardness) as modern day world. The text was intact during Rajput era and so I think that Rajput rulers not being able to use their spies effectively was more due to their being petty states rather than lack of strategic alertness.
Having a small state doesn't mean one could be excused from being aware of surroundings or being agile and scouting out.
If it is a small state, have fewer spies. But you ought to have them and use them.
Rajput Kingdoms of north west show no signs of operational spy networks. Was is not important for them to understand radical Islam back then, like you and I do and elaborate so easily today? But how could they do it. They weren't in the practice of actively studying enemies and strangers.

How would Chauhans collect information about Ghurids and their moves in Afghanistan?
The same way Ghurids did for Chauhans. Didn't the two share borders after all. You have to do it. If you don't, you're doomed.

Krishnadevaraya of Tuluva dynasty did employ spies who provided him details of Gajapati kingdom .
May be. VijayNagar was down south.
I'm not saying nobody did it at all. But this was certainly a poor performing area, more so for the Kingdoms in north west.
A fragmented periphery isn't much better then no periphery.
Mahmud's victories were more due to his vast number of troops ,excellent armoury and fanatic zeal of Turks than spying. Mahmud could gain 20,000 freebooters , could any Hindu king have been able to be in such position?
Again, I haven't credited all the success of all the invaders to only the spying. There are factors that contribute and this was one of them. We didn't do it as fine as them.
Now to the numbers. Indian Kingdoms raised huge armies by alliances to fight against Mahmud. Numbers were not a big issue.
Yes the zeal was one factor and Mahmud was a brilliant General, just like Babur. He knew when to fight, where to fight, when to flee, what route to take for attack, what route for retreat etc.

Regards,
Virendra
 

Bhadra

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As far as the question of Mewar's resistance is concerned. It worked because of many factors, not just the stubborn patriotism of Pratap and his kin.
Unlike Amber located at north east corner of Rajputana (closest to Delhi-Agra), Mewar was a State in south Rajasthan and had natural defense in the mountains and forests of Aravali. The range attains its prime there and degenerates going north east.
A part of Mewar also consisted of fertile plains. (It was this part that went to Mughals and where Pratap banned his people from growing crops as it would obviously empower the enemy).
Mewar though became a question of prestige for Akbar, it wasn't otherwise as important & practical a strategic objective for Mughals as :
a) having foothold in Ajmer (central Rajputana) where Aravali gave a gap away for Mughals to carve the desired highway to Arabian sea ports.
b) thereby driving a wedge and bifurcating Rajputana into two parts, for eating it later piece by piece.

Aurangzeb's timing of jaziya imposition right after Jaswant Singh's death; interference in Marwar succession; consequent war with them - inform us of what was of more practical importance to Mughals.
Having said that, all this doesn't belittle the courage & character of Mewaris for what they managed with fewer resources.

Regards,
Virendra

I fully agree with your assessment.

Akbar had nothing much to gain by capturing Mewar except for assuaging his ego mauled by a defiant Rajput. The Carvan route to the ports of Sindh had been secured by subjugating, Jaipur, then Jodhpur (seeker being part of it) then Bikaner and finally Jiasalmer which controlled the Carvan route around Ramgarh - Islamgarh. Multan and Sindh alredy being secured.

Mewar was no where influencing the rich revenue and profitable trade with Arabs. They could have never interfered with it. Mewar was also not much of revenue value as plains of Mewar were limited. Had it not been difficult places like Jaswant Garh and the formidable Kumbalgarh jungles and mountains,, the fight could have been lost. In fact the rich jain Marwaries and Bania of Saddadi (which remained safe due to Rana - and what a place it is even today with every one in Mumbay) and in part Bikaner had to finance the Ranas most of the time.

Rana's life was always that of deprivation, privation and struggle and unlike present day Rana, he was not even moderately rich. His last days nursing his wound were in fact horrible. That is what inspired the entire Mewaries to fight back.
 

shinoj

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Look all your Rationilising Apart, If Rana Pratap had a bigger Army and Resources and if the Indian Kings of those era were not in habbit of backstabbing each other they would have easily kicked out the Mughals for Good. Man to Man not only the Khatriyas or the Rajputs were braver than the Mughals they also had War Ethics.

In Simple Mans Word

Prithvi or a Rana >>>>>>>>>>> Mughals...
 

Virendra

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I agree though we should note that state mindedness also is a form of mini nationalism.
In a way Yes. Without it, how would the various medieval States resist centuries of invasions.
The problem was that our political system was too tribal to form strong centralized states. Even Vijaynagar suffered from this . A system based on clans rather than unflinching loyalty a dynastic state was doom of Indian civilization.
Perhaps it is the diversity. If you look back, pan India centralized Imperial rulers have been so few in the entire history of ours.
But then how did our ancestors survive with their culture intact?
Answer is the other side of that same decentralized system we were criticizing
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...atest-kings-indian-history-77.html#post633028
When the centralized polity ended up in north, the martial clans of kshatriya lineage adjusted to the new season and formed their own small clan based states.
Multiple power centers meant that though an invasive power can penetrate the weak periphery and sweep in, it would have to fight battles with many powers on many fronts. The moment you suppress at one point, the other would rise back in resistance.
The constant toggling of forts' control between native powers and Turks is an ideal example of this see-saw.
So despite of all its zeal, military might and terror strikes, the invader fails to achieve a complete victory.

Great post and I agree completely though I would still rank Mewar higher than any state in Rajasthan. There is no state in entire world which faced largest empires for centuries and Mewar's soil is " Bana hai Apne Satitva ki raksharth Jwala ki dhadhakati lapto me apne ko Bhasmibhoot kardene wali Veeranganao se". Which state in world history( forget about India) fought with empires one after another, for centuries, suffered immense losses and yet preserved its honour? Slave dynasty, Khiljis, Lodis, Tughlaqs and Mughals were one of richest empires in world( after Chinese ) and all of them were resisted by that state.
Symbolically the state of Mewar was regarded as head only, even by rulers of Jaipur and Marwar.
This was formally acknowledged as one of the resolutions in a meeting all these rulers had after Maratha incursions in Rajputana.
It makes sense because Mewari rulers led Rajputs against Arabs, Turks and Mughals
Look all your Rationilising Apart, If Rana Pratap had a bigger Army and Resources and if the Indian Kings of those era were not in habbit of backstabbing each other they would have easily kicked out the Mughals for Good. Man to Man not only the Khatriyas or the Rajputs were braver than the Mughals they also had War Ethics.
In Simple Mans Word
Prithvi or a Rana >>>>>>>>>>> Mughals...
It might relate well to note here (for the part highlighted above) that historians like Abu Bin Muhammed Habibullah accept that in individual close combat "Rajput surpassed the Turks".
Sadly, wars aren't always won by sheer bravery, but sometimes at chess boards.
About the infighting, it isn't the forte of Indian rulers exclusively, Infighting was the norm all around in medieval age. We just didn't handle that well.
Even at the places from where invaders like Ghazni and Ghori came - every opportunity of sabbotage, revolt & fratricide was utilized.
Many times the campaigns in India were abandoned half way because of an SOS back home.
By the way, we're still not far off from the infighting habits. Have you heard of MNS, Ram Sene and Telangana disputes?
 

shinoj

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Look Mughals were not great startegist as such or atleast they did not win much due to their superior Stategism. They won because they cheated a lot.

Right from Ghauri who cheated Prithvi to the likes of the Current Pakistani Army who will do any tactic like attacking when there is a Official peace Time or beheading Soldiers and so on.

Add to that Backstabbing from the Indian Kings like Jaychand who backstabbed Poor Prithvi and so on helped Mughals in India.

Now dont go on this rubbishness about Mughal Bravery. Bravery is fighting for your rights, building your own Nation, Building your own Culture, Not attacking the woman and children, not imposing their own thinking over others.

The Mughal Dogs displayed none. They were known to cheat and conspire. and thats what they did.Talk about Mughals being brace . :superlol:
 

Pratap

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@Virendra

Having a small state doesn't mean one could be excused from being aware of surroundings or being agile and scouting out.
If it is a small state, have fewer spies. But you ought to have them and use them.

Small states tend to have narrow outlook and mainly are concerned with their own rivals of India(in our case) rather than an Islamic marauder. The idea that if small states then less but equally efficient number of spies is flawed in sense that we are not talking about mere presence or absence of spies rather their effectiveness. So it was not that Rajputs could not have thought of spies(Arthasastra was there and so the idea must be there) but how much they fared against Muslim spies of Ghurids. It just did not require you to send some scouts but rather that a well established spy network is there which can recruit spies, can persuade them to risk their life, can employ them for every season so moves, counter moves, feigned tactical retreats all were noticed by them. My view is that since Muslim empires were larger, they had benefit of economy of scale and principle of specialization.
They had wide networks and trade contacts enabling them to get first hand account of every area and major routes( even now many MNCs are also used as info gathering bodies) and so in this area( as in others) it was not lack of spies rather complexity and speciality of them.
Muslim geographers wrote about Japan, I do not think that Indians did same. It was not because Indians were stupid, rather lack of centralized states meant we had less merchants in sea and so less records of far flung areas.


Rajput Kingdoms of north west show no signs of operational spy networks. Was is not important for them to understand radical Islam back then, like you and I do and elaborate so easily today? But how could they do it. They weren't in the practice of actively studying enemies and strangers

We have very few records( in some cases we do not know even when a certain king died) so it is evident that they would speak less about operational spy network. I agree that inference shows such a thing but again , it was lack of standing army which nullified anything. Even if spy reported arrival of ghazis, it took time for Rajputs to group their feudal levies.
Spies could not have helped in understanding radical Islam( I hope you do not buy that there is even a moderate Islam). This was job of our intellectuals and they failed horribly. These intellectuals were debating on Nava Nyaya but had no time to pick up Quran and see what it had for them.
After somnath was sacked, its head priest was allowing construction of mosque in Veraval with his blessings. Did it need spy to understand Islam?
It was due to Hindus being materialist( like they are now) and secular( in real terms as use of religion for politics is an alien idea apart from rituals) which explains their failure. People interpret others in their own image( I have often heard that muslims do not eat pork because pig is one of deities from normal hindus) and so this failure.

This failure is common to all non Abrahmic societies except Chinese. The Roman pagans could never understand the real threat of Christianity, they saw it as just another revolt against them, Berbers of NAfrica saw Muslims as yet another marauding force and so on.


The same way Ghurids did for Chauhans. Didn't the two share borders after all. You have to do it. If you don't, you're doomed

I have already explained it but please note that Sufi literature( authentic not modern day apologistic) mentions that they were there in heartland of Chahman kingdom. Did we have hindu monks acting as fifth coloumn in Ghor? Why Pak has more agents in India than India has in Pak?
Ideology does play important role. US in 1940s was having spies from Soviets, Soviets never suffered anything such as that.


I'm not saying nobody did it at all. But this was certainly a poor performing area, more so for the Kingdoms in north west.
A fragmented periphery isn't much better then no periphery
I do not want to be basher of my own ancestors but we performed poorly because of tribal structure of our polity not because we had no insight

Again, I haven't credited all the success of all the invaders to only the spying. There are factors that contribute and this was one of them. We didn't do it as fine as them.

We did not do as fine as them but because we lacked good states not that we were fools. If Burma loses against Thailand, it will be because of its less efficient state not because Burmese leaders do not have ideas

Now to the numbers. Indian Kingdoms raised huge armies by alliances to fight against Mahmud. Numbers were not a big issue
They did not. I doubt that alliance of all North Indian kings took place to help Jaipal as this evidence comes from Ferishta and not from other contemporaries of Mahmud. Ferishta has presented entire episode as one between Kufr and Islam and so he invented that all Hindus united but still they were defeated thus showing that one ghazi is equal to 10 Kaffirs.
Numbers were not that big issues when gap is not much but do you really think that Mahmud when he marched against Somnath was outnumbered by Solankis? It is almost impossible as he had 30,000 cavalry as well as freebooters and it is impossible for a tiny kingdom like Gujarat to match him by putting 50,000 men. Muslim authors have exaggerated numbers which are often ridiculous. Ottomans had just 1,50,000 troops in early sixteenth century and we are told that Rana Sanga who was ruling over smaller area( by many times) brought more than one lakh soldiers against Babur.

I am telling you a formula, if you know population of a region, take out 1 percent and you will get number of soldiers( not peasants armed at times of crisis) and by this benchmark, Mewar could not have put 1 lakh against Babur. The reason why we were defeated was because we did not outnumber muslims often. When we did,other factors operated

Yes the zeal was one factor and Mahmud was a brilliant General, just like Babur. He knew when to fight, where to fight, when to flee, what route to take for attack, what route for retreat etc

Mahmud was many times better than Babur who was a loser in his own homeland. Babur could not hold his own against Shaibani Khan an Uzbek, who himself was thrashed by Safavids who ruled Persia. Mahmud on other hand ruled from Caspian Sea to Lahore and easily defeated most of Islamic superpowers of that area.
He destroyed Samanids( Tajik dynasty) and also defeated Karakhanids who were noted as fierce warriors. If you ask any MidEastern about Tughril Beg, he would sing great glories( if he is Sunni) and the man captured Baghdad but same Tughril was thrashed by Ghazanavi and in the battle his Seljuk( this tribe changed character of Anatolia) turks were simply smashed. So long as Mahmud was alive, Seljuks did not dare attack Ghazanavids again.

Mahmud could defeat Hindu Sahis because Hindu Sahis were most unlucky to get such a great general as him as their deadly rival.
 
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sam80

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Time Changes powers changes , People rise from nothing , Mughal ruled india from 12th to 16th century , Hindu Marathas Destroyed Mughal Empire in 16-17th Century. British Destroyed Marathas and other Hindu Powers then Gandhi Destroyed British .

Last Days of Aurangzeb was worst Period of his life , He lost Everything in war with Marathas.


The Famous Indologist Stanley Wolpert writes ..........

the conquest of the Deccan Marathas, to which, Aurangzeb devoted the last 26 years of his life, was in many ways a Pyrrhic victory, costing an estimated hundred thousand lives a year during its last decade of futile chess game warfare. The expense in gold and rupees can hardly be accurately estimated. Aurangzeb's encampment was like a moving capital – a city of tents 30 miles in circumference, with some 250 bazaars, with a 1⁄2 million camp followers, 50,000 camels and 30,000 elephants, all of whom had to be fed, stripped the Deccan of any and all of its surplus grain and wealth ... Not only famine but bubonic plague arose ... Even Aurangzeb, had ceased to understand the purpose of it all by the time he was nearing 90 ... "I came alone and I go as a stranger. I do not know who I am, nor what I have been doing," the dying old man confessed to his son, Azam, in February 1707.



Aurangzeb witnessed bitter fights among his sons in his last days. Alone, lost, depressed, bankrupt, far away from home, he died on 3 March 1707. Thus ended a prolonged and gruelling period in history of India. The Mughal kingdom fragmented and disintegrated soon after, paving the way for the Maratha Empire to become the dominant power in India

The final Maratha counter offensive gathered momentum in North. Tarabai proved to be a valiant leader once again. One after another Mughal provinces fell in north. They were not in position to defend as the royal treasuries had been sucked dry and no armies were left in town. In 1705, two Maratha army factions crossed Narmada. One under leadership of Nemaji Shinde hit as deep North as Bhopal. Second under the leadership of Khanderao Dabhade struck Bharoch and West. Dabhade with his eight thousand men,attacked and defeated Mahomed khan's forces numbering almost fourteen thousand.[9] This left entire Gujarat coast wide open for Marathas. They immediately tightened their grip on Mughal supply chains. By 1705 end, Marathas had penetrated Mughal possession of Central India and Gujarat. Nemaji Shinde defeated Mughals on the Malwa plateau. In 1706, Mughals started retreating from Maratha dominions.

 
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Pratap

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@Virendra

Symbolically the state of Mewar was regarded as head only, even by rulers of Jaipur and Marwar.
This was formally acknowledged as one of the resolutions in a meeting all these rulers had after Maratha incursions in Rajputana.
It makes sense because Mewari rulers led Rajputs against Arabs, Turks and Mughals
Thanks for agreeing here. Jehangir himself mentioned that Rana Amar Singh 's superiority was acknowledged by all Rajputs.
 
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Pratap

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Perhaps it is the diversity. If you look back, pan India centralized Imperial rulers have been so few in the entire history of ours.
But then how did our ancestors survive with their culture intact?
Because of superiority of culture. Our culture was the only pre modern culture to spread without arms. Sanskrit and Prakrit inscriptions and texts have been found in places as west as Turkmenistan, places as east as Japan, as north as Aksu in Xinjiang and as south as Java. Also, a culture that is based on intensive sedentary agriculture and has a strong patriarchal society can withstand any crisis. UP , Bihar and Gujarat have so few muslims is because just like Greece, by the time Muslims arrived, we were a culture strongly bound by our religion and customs and had a stable family system.
Aurobindo Ghosh credited our survival to unflinching monogamous instinct of savarna women ( I know I will be ridiculed as a narrow minded obscurantist). Also, we have lost 1.2 million square Km and some 500 million people directly and 150 million people indirectly to Islam along with thousands of precious art specimens so while we survived Islamic storm , we also suffered horribly.
Military resistance ensured that in some parts, muslim numbers remain low.

When the centralized polity ended up in north, the martial clans of kshatriya lineage adjusted to the new season and formed their own small clan based states.
They did what was best that they could but still, clan based systems are no match for strong Imperial governments like Mauryas who defeated Seleucus Nekator and it was Nandas who put fear in minds of Macedonian barbarians. The clan based states of Punjab fell one after another before Greeks though giving a tough fight.

Multiple power centers meant that though an invasive power can penetrate the weak periphery and sweep in, it would have to fight battles with many powers on many fronts. The moment you suppress at one point, the other would rise back in resistance.
But single power centre meant that the barbarians could have been repulsed as soon as they appeared. Byzantine empire was very loosely held in NAfrica and Arabs captured N Africa easily but to capture Anatolia which was core area and centralized, Arabs made attacks after attacks and failed. It were Turks led by Seljuk tribe( the same were defeated by Ghazanavi) who completed the task.

The constant toggling of forts' control between native powers and Turks is an ideal example of this see-saw.
So despite of all its zeal, military might and terror strikes, the invader fails to achieve a complete victory
Centralized rule does not mean army at one place rather that it has huge ability to mobilize resources. The Chinese who were centralized gave toughest resistance to Mongols at their prime when whole world collapsed against Mongols. When North China was overrun, Song dynasty resisted in same manner as Rajputs and there were heroic defenses of forts. When one city fell, imperial army moved to another. Centralized rule has all benefits of decentralized system but also can put up more men at battlefield with superior martial prowess.

I am in no way downplaying resistance only saying that if entire Rajputana was centralized under Kumbha, it could have overcome both Gujarat and Malwa completely and destroyed their existence.
 
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shinoj

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Because of superiority of culture. Our culture was the only pre modern culture to spread without arms. Sanskrit and Prakrit inscriptions and texts have been found in places as west as Turkmenistan, places as east as Japan, as north as Aksu in Xinjiang and as south as Java. Also, a culture that is based on intensive sedentary agriculture and has a strong patriarchal society can withstand any crisis. UP , Bihar and Gujarat have so few muslims is because just like Greece, by the time Muslims arrived, we were a culture strongly bound by our religion and customs and had a stable family system.
Aurobindo Ghosh credited our survival to unflinching monogamous instinct of savarna women ( I know I will be ridiculed as a narrow minded obscurantist). Also, we have lost 1.2 million square Km and some 500 million people directly and 150 million people indirectly to Islam along with thousands of precious art specimens so while we survived Islamic storm , we also suffered horribly.
Military resistance ensured that in some parts, muslim numbers remain low.



They did what was best that they could but still, clan based systems are no match for strong Imperial governments like Mauryas who defeated Seleucus Nekator and it was Nandas who put fear in minds of Macedonian barbarians. The clan based states of Punjab fell one after another before Greeks though giving a tough fight.



But single power centre meant that the barbarians could have been repulsed as soon as they appeared. Byzantine empire was very loosely held in NAfrica and Arabs captured N Africa easily but to capture Anatolia which was core area and centralized, Arabs made attacks after attacks and failed. It were Turks led by Seljuk tribe( the same were defeated by Ghazanavi) who completed the task.



Centralized rule does not mean army at one place rather that it has huge ability to mobilize resources. The Chinese who were centralized gave toughest resistance to Mongols at their prime when whole world collapsed against Mongols. When North China was overrun, Song dynasty resisted in same manner as Rajputs and there were heroic defenses of forts. When one city fell, imperial army moved to another. Centralized rule has all benefits of decentralized system but also can put up more men at battlefield with superior martial prowess.

I am in no way downplaying resistance only saying that if entire Rajputana was centralized under Kumbha, it could have overcome both Gujarat and Malwa completely and destroyed their existence.

Look I respect your views in general but your views about patriarchal society is stronger is nonsense, kerala is a matriachial society and I cannot tell you enough about its contribution to indian culture and world in general
 
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Pratap

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Look I respect your views in general but your views about patriarchal society is stronger is nonsense, kerala is a matriachial society and I cannot tell you enough about its contribution to indian culture and world in general
Kerala was matriarchal but among non brahmans and non kshatriyas. Nayars were very matriarchal. Tell me their "contribution" to India before arrival of Brahmins in Kerala. All kings of kerala followed patriarchal culture and so their fighting prowess can not be credited to matriarchy. The idea that matriarchy is good is nothing but westernization of our youths who have been mentally attacked by feminazis.
Chinese, Greeks, Indians , Persians all were patriarchal. Patriarchal system is marked by

1. Inheritance passed to son from father
2. Men can be polygamous but women can not
3. Chastity of women is greatly prized and is made a symbol of honor unlike in matriarchal culture where there is no such boundation.
 

Peter

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Kerala was matriarchal but among non brahmans and non kshatriyas. Nayars were very matriarchal. Tell me their "contribution" to India before arrival of Brahmins in Kerala. All kings of kerala followed patriarchal culture and so their fighting prowess can not be credited to matriarchy. The idea that matriarchy is good is nothing but westernization of our youths who have been mentally attacked by feminazis.
Chinese, Greeks, Indians , Persians all were patriarchal. Patriarchal system is marked by

1. Inheritance passed to son from father
2. Men can be polygamous but women can not
3. Chastity of women is greatly prized and is made a symbol of honor unlike in matriarchal culture where there is no such boundation.
Also pre Renaissance Europe was patriarchal.Most cultures were patriarchal before 1500`s.
 

Pratap

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Also pre Renaissance Europe was patriarchal.Most cultures were patriarchal before 1500`s.
Not before 1500s but till 1900 all cultures with writing and statehood were patriarchal. Matriarchal culture is outright primitiveness. I will open a thread where I will demolish nonsense of " liberalism " in ancient India sooner or later.
It is patriarchal culture which can give us such great souls like Kalyani or Shanti of famous novel Anandmath written by Bankim Chandra( I hope you have read that novel)
 

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