M777 ultra-light howitzers to Indian Army

[mavles ihctep]

Guys contract still not signed,no need to celebrate

 

[Chinmoy]

Guys contract still not signed,no need to celebrate

India-US sign Rs 5,000 cr deal for 145 M777 Howitzer guns

http://www.financialexpress.com/ind...45-m777-howitzer-guns-for-indian-army/460737/

“India has today signed the Letter of Acceptance which formalises the contract between India and US for these guns,” PTI sources said.

 

[mayfair]

^^ We have signed the letter of acceptance i.e. we have officially agreed to the US government offer to purchase 145 M777 Howitzers from BAE and then hand them over to us for $737 million. Now the US DoD will formally sign the contract with BAE to supply these guns to Indian army. This process is termed as Foreign Military Sales or Government-to-Government sales.

From our side, things are done.

 

[Chinmoy]

^^ We have signed the letter of acceptance i.e. we have officially agreed to the US government offer to purchase 145 M777 Howitzers from BAE and then hand them over to us for $737 million. Now the US DoD will formally sign the contract with BAE to supply these guns to Indian army. This process is termed as Foreign Military Sales or Government-to-Government sales.

From our side, things are done.

Probably it would be signed formally during Carter's visit this month. Although timeline provided for first two system does match with that of the deal, mid of 2017.

 

[mayfair]

Probably it would be signed formally during Carter's visit this month. Although timeline provided for first two system does match with that of the deal, mid of 2017.

You mean the agreement between US DoD and BAE? Because we have nothing left to sign with US on this, our job is done. Now we await the delivery of the first guns.

I would like to think that Carter visit will focus on signing other bilaterals- one of them alphabet soups like LEMOA, BECA,XYZZZ, whatever. Probably even an agreement on Predator/Guardian (but we've recently contracted Isarel to supply 10 weaponised Herons so less likely).

Obama admin is on its last legs, not sure what they can push at this stage for India. NSG seems unlikely.

 

[India22]

Are you sure M777 can be moved after each shot as Chinese have Artillery locating radars? If we fire from one side their artillery would attack us using radar. I think instead of this buying mobile rocket artillery like this
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/15_cm_Nebelwerfer_41 would be better. First few shots of Howitzer matter most because after this enemy seek cover. But using this type of highly mobile rocket artillery within first few seconds we can unleash volley of fire causing more damage and then immediately move as Chinese have artilery locating radars.

 

[Chinmoy]

Are you sure M777 can be moved after each shot as Chinese have Artillery locating radars? If we fire from one side their artillery would attack us using radar. I think instead of this buying mobile rocket artillery like this
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/15_cm_Nebelwerfer_41 would be better. First few shots of Howitzer matter most because after this enemy seek cover. But using this type of highly mobile rocket artillery within first few seconds we can unleash volley of fire causing more damage and then immediately move as Chinese have artilery locating radars.

These kind of short range rockets too are of no use if you think logically. At an elevation of 45 degree they are going to give you maximum range, that too of 2 km. Means you need to be at border within the range of enemy AMR to fire these. On other hand M777 could give you a minimum range of 24 km. Although you can't shoot and scoot with these short of guns, but in mountainous warfare neither you could shoot and scoot with any small Mortars. As far as WLR are concerned, they can't triangulate your positions with just a single shot. You need to fire a volley of shots for WLR to locate your position, then too the EP would not be 0.

 

[India22]

These kind of short range rockets too are of no use if you think logically. At an elevation of 45 degree they are going to give you maximum range, that too of 2 km. Means you need to be at border within the range of enemy AMR to fire these. On other hand M777 could give you a minimum range of 24 km. Although you can't shoot and scoot with these short of guns, but in mountainous warfare neither you could shoot and scoot with any small Mortars. As far as WLR are concerned, they can't triangulate your positions with just a single shot. You need to fire a volley of shots for WLR to locate your position, then too the EP would not be 0.

Okay but I do think we can use range of this MLRS by using modern technology and rockets. I also read that in case of artillery, first few rounds do most damage by that time enemy becomes alert and seek cover. Now in first 20 seconds M777 can fire roughly 3/4 rounds while MLRS can fire at least 12-16 rockets. MLRS also tend to devastate an area by just one salvo which takes less than one minute too fire. So do you think in this field MLRS is ahead of conventional guns?

 

[WolfPack86]

Indian Army to receive first American Howitzer by June 2017

After a wait of three decades, the Indian Army is set to receive its first Howitzer by June 2017, thanks to a $737-million deal with the US. The government-to-government contract between Washington and New Delhi will facilitate the sale of BAE Systems’ M777 ultra-lightweight Howitzers to the army, which didn’t have any artillery since the purchase of the Bofors guns.

A week before US Secretary of Defence Ashton Carter’s India visit on December 8, the Defence Ministry had signed the Letter of Acceptance to purchase 145 M777 guns through the foreign military sales route. The countdown to the delivery has already begun as BAE Systems is to supply the first one within six months, sources said.

The entire consignment is to be delivered over a period of about 54 months. While the first 25 guns are to be imported in two years, the rest would be assembled at a factory at Faridabad, which Mahindra set up in partnership with BAE Systems.

At half the weight of other 155mm-towed Howitzers, the M777 provides a rapid reaction capability, and is the only battle-proven 155mm ultra-lightweight Howitzer in the world.

For the Indian Army, the guns would be useful while serving on mountainous terrain. Also, since they can be carried by Chinook helicopters, which also India is buying from the US, they can be quickly moved to areas close to the border. Almost a decade ago, the army had proposed purchasing the 155 mm/39 calibre lightweight Howitzers. But even after the ministry approved the M777 purchase and the gun performed well in the trials, the deal was stuck due to price negotiation.
http://defencenews.in/article/Indian-Army-to-receive-first-American-Howitzer-by-June-2017-149469

 

[Chinmoy]

Okay but I do think we can use range of this MLRS by using modern technology and rockets. I also read that in case of artillery, first few rounds do most damage by that time enemy becomes alert and seek cover. Now in first 20 seconds M777 can fire roughly 3/4 rounds while MLRS can fire at least 12-16 rockets. MLRS also tend to devastate an area by just one salvo which takes less than one minute too fire. So do you think in this field MLRS is ahead of conventional guns?

Accuracy is the name of game here. With MBRL like Pinaka or Smerch, you need intensive calculation in between firing to recalibrate them to hit a specific area or point. But with any cannon, its much easier. You can't expect the rocket fired from tube 2 of an MBRL to hit the same spot as that of the one fired from tube 1. But with a cannon, you could hit the same spot as much as you want. That's the reason why India is developing guided Pinaka, and there is Excalibur for M777.
Both MBRL and Howitzers have there unique place in battle field. You can't mix up both of them. MBRL is more of an Area damager, whereas Howitzer is a point damager. When you want sniper firing, you don't call in guy with machine gun.

 

[India22]

Accuracy is the name of game here. With MBRL like Pinaka or Smerch, you need intensive calculation in between firing to recalibrate them to hit a specific area or point. But with any cannon, its much easier. You can't expect the rocket fired from tube 2 of an MBRL to hit the same spot as that of the one fired from tube 1. But with a cannon, you could hit the same spot as much as you want. That's the reason why India is developing guided Pinaka, and there is Excalibur for M777.
Both MBRL and Howitzers have there unique place in battle field. You can't mix up both of them. MBRL is more of an Area damager, whereas Howitzer is a point damager. When you want sniper firing, you don't call in guy with machine gun.

I never said to completely phase out conventional artillery. And why bother about pin point accuracy when you destroy the entire area? You need to readjust your conventional guns because a single conventional gun's firing will not decimate the area but a volley from MLRS can.

In Kargil War, Indian troops fired 250,000 shells, how many of them hit Pakistanis? Meanwhile MLRS in conventional engagement can quickly neutralize an entire area, routing enemy completely and then change position. 2 different philosophies. There is no guarantee that you will hit target with your first round, so you need to recalibrate, in MLRS whether you heat or not, massive 100kg warhead destroys everything by blast impact.

 

[Chinmoy]

I never said to completely phase out conventional artillery. And why bother about pin point accuracy when you destroy the entire area? You need to readjust your conventional guns because a single conventional gun's firing will not decimate the area but a volley from MLRS can.

In Kargil War, Indian troops fired 250,000 shells, how many of them hit Pakistanis? Meanwhile MLRS in conventional engagement can quickly neutralize an entire area, routing enemy completely and then change position. 2 different philosophies. There is no guarantee that you will hit target with your first round, so you need to recalibrate, in MLRS whether you heat or not, massive 100kg warhead destroys everything by blast impact.

What you are saying is true for general purpose. In vast plain of Punjab or in desert of Rajasthan these things are true. But when it comes to mountainous warfare, things are different. Even in Kargil we used Pinaka along with Bofors. How many hit you think Pinaka scored? Why you think we came up with Steep dive Brahmos MkII for mountain warfare? A single 500 kg warhead would have been enough to take out whole area, isn't it?

 

[Adioz]

I never said to completely phase out conventional artillery. And why bother about pin point accuracy when you destroy the entire area? You need to readjust your conventional guns because a single conventional gun's firing will not decimate the area but a volley from MLRS can.

In Kargil War, Indian troops fired 250,000 shells, how many of them hit Pakistanis? Meanwhile MLRS in conventional engagement can quickly neutralize an entire area, routing enemy completely and then change position. 2 different philosophies. There is no guarantee that you will hit target with your first round, so you need to recalibrate, in MLRS whether you heat or not, massive 100kg warhead destroys everything by blast impact.

Why you derailing every artillery thread with the tube vs rocket arty discussion? There is a separate thread for that.

 

[WolfPack86]

BAE Systems starts production of Howitzers for India - Delivers commence in June 2017

BAE Systems is producing ultra-lightweight howitzers for the Indian Army as a result of a Foreign Military Sales deal between the Indian and U.S. governments.

The Department of Defense contact is for a total of 145 M777 gun systems and worth $542 million, the company said.

"We look forward to working with the Indian Army and providing the only battle-proven 155mm ultra-lightweight howitzer in the world," Joe Senftle, vice president and general manager of Weapon Systems at BAE Systems said. "The M777 will give the Indian Army superior artillery capability.

"M777 will remain at the forefront of artillery technology well into the future through the use of technical insertions, long-range precision guided munition developments, and flexible mobility options."

The 155mm howitzer weighs 9,300 pounds and can fire as many as five rounds per minute.

BAE Systems said its work on the contract begins immediately and will be performed by BAE Systems and its suppliers across Britain, the United States and India.

Deliveries of the howitzers are to begin this June.
http://defencenews.in/article/BAE-S...India---Delivers-commence-in-June-2017-249883

 

[Hari Sud]

Tell me more about its spare parts supply. Barrel is Titanium, which reduces the weight. But can other parts be made locally.

 

[mayfair]

Tell me more about its spare parts supply. Barrel is Titanium, which reduces the weight. But can other parts be made locally.

The local partner is Mahindra and after the initial lot that will be flown over from the US, the rest will be "assembled" locally. I do hope they have looked in to the issue of spares and support and that's why it took so long to finalise this deal.

Titanium barrels will have to come straight from US since transfer of tech is prohibited. But I have hopes that somewhere down the line, Bharat Forge can ease themselves in and start servicing and supplying new Titanium barrels.

 

[lcafanboy]

Big guns: First modern 155 mm artillery guns to land in India after the Bofors scandal of 1980s

HIGHLIGHTS

• This will be the first induction of modern 155mm artillery guns by the Army since the 1980s.
• The howitzers will be taken to the Pokhran ranges for testing
• The M-777 guns are primarily meant for the front with China

NEW DELHI: India has now exorcised the ominous Bofors ghost haunting its artillery modernization plans for the last 30 years. In the first modern 155mm artillery guns to be inducted by the Army since the 1980s, two of the 145 M-777 ultra-light howitzers ordered from the US will touch down here on Thursday morning.

Defence sources on Wednesday said the two howitzers, which will come in a chartered aircraft from the UK, will be taken to the Pokhran ranges for testing and "compilation of the firing tables" for subsequent use. "The firing tables, with the guns being tested for different kinds of Indian ammunition with bi-modular charges, will take some time to be formulated," said a source.

The delivery schedule for the air-mobile howitzers, being acquired under the $737 million deal inked with the US in a government-to-government deal, will quicken from March 2019 onwards. "Five guns will then be delivered every month till all 145 are inducted by June 2021. While the first 25 guns will be imported, the rest 120 will be assembled in India with artillery-manufacturer BAE Systems selecting Mahindra as its business partner here," he added.

The arrival of the M-777 guns, which are primarily meant for the front with China, comes soon after the government also inked a Rs 4,366 crore contract with engineering conglomerate L&T for the supply of 100 self-propelled howitzers in collaboration with its South Korean technology partner Hanwha Tech Win. These 155mm/52-calibre tracked guns called K-9 Vajra-T, in turn, are to be delivered within 42 months, as was earlier reported by TOI.
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The 13-lakh strong Army has not inducted a single 155mm artillery gun since the Bofors scandal brought down the Rajiv Gandhi government, and derailed all plans for technology transfer and indigenous manufacture.

Subsequent scandals revolving around other global artillery manufacturers, like South African Denel and Singapore Technology Kinetic's, further punched gaping holes in the Army's long-range, high-volume firepower. Interestingly, the original Swedish Bofors company is now owned by BAE Systems.

The Army has been demanding 155mm/39-calibre ultra-light howitzers like the M-777s, with a strike range from 24 to 40-km depending on the kind of ammunition used, for almost 15 years now as part of the overall plan to build robust conventional deterrence against China.

Weighing just over 4-tonne due to the use of titanium, the M-777 can swiftly be airlifted to high-altitudes areas up to 16,000-feet in Ladakh and Arunachal Pradesh along the 4,057-km Line of Actual Control with China.

The M-777 howitzers will equip the new 17 Mountain Strike Corps, which the Army is raising by cannibalizing its existing reserves, for the China front. With two infantry divisions geared for mountain warfare, and associated artillery, air defence and armoured brigades, the 17 Corps will be fully in place with 90,274 troops by 2021.

http://m.timesofindia.com/india/big...ors-scandal-of-1980s/articleshow/58721807.cms

 

[WolfPack86]

M777 Howtizers in India for trials:biggrin2:

 

[WolfPack86]

M777 Howtizers in India for trials

 

[captscooby81]

For all who were cursing the Muzzle break on the Dhanush Guns in trail firing here is a Great news to digest ..

M777 Howitzer firing trail had accident 10 days ago..Luckily no injuries

Nature of accident : Ammo burst inside barrel