M4 Rifles for Army SF Units

[sayareakd]

MOD is under pressure of lobby from within army and outside to get uncle's weapons. Plus stupid way to promote weapon, rifle that kill Osama, what next bullet that kill Osama are for sale to India ? Helicopter that used in raid to kill Osama, list can go on.

 

[sayareakd]

If they want something good with money and weight as no consideration then they should go for South Korea's new assault rifle K-11.

I am not sure if SK has offered it to anyone.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

@ Kunal, can you compare both M4 and X 95, not just the parameters and th specs, but why technically and practically it is good according to you.

Sure:

Weight: 3.1 kg
Length: (840 mm) (stock extended)
Barrel length: (370 mm)

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Weight:2.98 Kg
Overall Length :590 mm
Barrel Length: 330 mm

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But most Importantly reliability of TAR series of Rifles:

MUD TEST:



I recommend people to watch these vids:


You just dont have this in M4..
Only its second to a AK regarding reliability..

 

[ALBY]

but kunal sir....there are many tv prog where even isreali army units are seen using M4 rather than T-21... cant be that useless..??!! plus is it possible HK416 was not for sale...??

Are the tavors,M4s and hk416s the only high class rifles available in the market today?there are vast variety of arms available .if paras wanted no more of bullpups then there are much renowned weapons out there matching or much better than M4s like the SiG552,AK10x series,Fn scar,cz805s,beryl commando etc. And every time army goes for a weapon I hears 4 or 5 brands in the race
For getting selected. But here i read only India is gonna import M4s from USA.previous year it was Mha was awarding contracts to berettas and IMI which produces X95s with out any global tender. Same is the case of importing Akms from Bulgaria where we could get better Ak103s at a reduced price.
It could be argumented that it is better than getting struck in red tape just as in case of other military deals.But here we ahould remember that M4s had a bad reputation of getting jammed in the dust storm and mud.So that's why rangers and seals are switching over to Hk416s which are improved versions of M4s. There were reports of problems from astan and Iraq about these problems.
Coming to the validity of vedios showcasing the arms most of them are just posted just for weapons promotion. There is another vedio in youtube comparing M4 and ak74 by a western journalist and a georgian officer in Georgia.the M4 is fitted with all accessories available in market including an ACOG scope and Ak had none.As usual the Ak74 losed because hitting a taget with a weapon
Without a scope is much hard than the one with scope.If you go through any tavor promoting vedio you will feel that its yhe best one.
PS:if hks are not for sale how could it end up with polish special forces?America is just finding buyers for their surplus M4 stocks in our army with the help of MOD just like it sold many of the surplus M16s and M4s to Iraq Afghanistan,Georgia etc in the past.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

If you go through any tavor promoting vedio you will feel that its yhe best one.

There are difference between bluff and real..

Not just that anyone said you have to believe, But judge yourself..

 

[Immanuel]

Bin Laden was most likely killed by the Colt C901 or even a SCAR. HK indeed is used by Delta units but I heard they brought in the new Colt since it was found to be extremly impressive. But one will never know since different weapons were at play and Seal teams have the choice of picking the weapons for each mission.

M-4 is a good rifle and M-4 is a very loosely used term and everything from Sig 556, Bushmaster's AR-15s, HK's etc fall in this category. All these are manufactured in the US by the different manufacturers and I wouldn't be surpriced what we finally get is not the Colt version. Bushmaster ARs come in various caliber options of 5.56, 6.8 spc and 7.26. The latest M-4s ordered for the US army are Remington R-4s these are better variants to the colt versions.

 

[Immanuel]

M4 Torture Test Promo - YouTube!

Looking at this video, this Daniel Defence M-4 might just be better than anything out there in terms of reliability and ruggedness. These are the latest variants. It might just be the most reliable ever made. This is freaking impressive.

 

[Bhadra]

The video shows just dip and take out. The oiling of the machine will prevent mudding and watering. The beauty lies when the rifle is underground or in the water for a month taken out and starts firing.

AK can do that... and only AK can do that. That is how terrorist dump their weapons when not needed for months, just take out when required and it still fires...

the video is a humbug advertisement...

 

[Spindrift]

Would they be getting it in 5.56 or 6.8?
Personally, i feel as it is for SF then it would be prudent to get it in 6.8.

 

[Ray]

Is M 14 rifle really a good rifle?

 

[ALBY]

There are difference between bluff and real..

Not just that anyone said you have to believe, But judge yourself..

I just told what I saw in the vedio showing ak74 and M4. I just quoted tavor as an example only. But my point was that even if the M4 which is gonna get selected is not the infamous colt but rather developed HK416 or diemacao c7,there were much better options available just like Sigs,G36, ak10X series etc.
Btw I didn't find the logic behind switching over from 7.62 round to 5.56 round in Para SF.I knew that 5.56 weapons are accurate,light,long ranged
etc.But on the other side they lack stopping power plus Ak grade reliability. Plus SF units are not expected to engage enemies at a distance more than 100 or more of it.Its the general infantry which engages in >150mts range and that too in conventional battles in plains and deserts,Sf whether engaged in CT ops inside nation or behind enemy lines are not expected to shoot across "two nations".At a distance less than 150mts Aks and VZs are quite accurate if fired in semi or 2/3 round bursts which all the SF around globe are trained to do with even small caliber ,recoil less weapons like MP5s.
Plus VZ58 is a very light weapon like M4 with high stopping power. What ever be the advts say no weapon chamberes for 5.56 will work great in dust ,mud,water or snow as a typical Akm will . Instead of importing M4s SF could have imported the SOCOM kits made by arsenal USA to use in Aks and Vzs.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

I just told what I saw in the vedio showing ak74 and M4. I just quoted tavor as an example only. But my point was that even if the M4 which is gonna get selected is not the infamous colt but rather developed HK416 or diemacao c7,there were much better options available just like Sigs,G36, ak10X series etc.

That is why i said difference between reality and hoax, One need to decide based on his experience,AKM are Outstanding Rifle, But TAR have its reasons, Main reason PARA got TAR-21 coz its bull-pup deign, But barrel of AR rifle, PARA forces carry compact weapons so does other Equipments, you can also see there Helmets are no regular issue like in Infantry..

Plus SF units are not expected to engage enemies at a distance more than 100 or more of it.Its the general infantry which engages in >150mts range and that too in conventional battles in plains and deserts

No, SF also use dedicated Sniper Units, Wont be using that if they are only limited to CQB ? SF are trained to face any challenge in any terrain at any range..

AK are good against CT ops and CQB, But in a regular battle or small conflicts like Kargil, Punjab, Rajasthan and other range is needed..

 

[Kunal Biswas]

I have seen AK versus M16 /M4 those are for entertainment..

 

[ALBY]

That is why i said difference between reality and hoax, One need to decide based on his experience,AKM are Outstanding Rifle, But TAR have its reasons, Main reason PARA got TAR-21 coz its bull-pup deign, But barrel of AR rifle, PARA forces carry compact weapons so does other Equipments, you can also see there Helmets are no regular issue like in Infantry..

Did I ever opposed selection of tavors but switching over to 5.56 rifles as Standard weapons considering SF now days engage more in CT ops in dense forests of NE and J&K .
Tavors are excellent weapons with fine balnce and are reportedly less problamatic compared to other bullpups like L85 .
But there is no reason for M4s import considering more reliable were available.

No, SF also use dedicated Sniper Units, Wont be using that if they are only limited to CQB ? SF are trained to face any challenge in any terrain at any range..

Come on dude ....you knew that now days almost all the work undertaken by SF are of CT ops type or behind enemy lines type which are of shot distanced and surprise typed ones where M43 is good for many reasons. For long range ones why couldn't just import more tavors instead of M4s if SF is so fond of tavors?

AK are good against CT ops and CQB, But in a regular battle or small conflicts like Kargil, Punjab, Rajasthan and other range is needed..

Ps:in kargil 9th PARAs had used VZs instead of INSAS. Plus army need to do a silenced work which couldn't be done with Uzis then Aks are better options than M4s considering the performance. This deal is more in the interest of colt and Mod than the interest of SF.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

but switching over to 5.56 rifles as Standard weapons.

But there is no reason for M4s import considering more reliable were available.

you knew that now days almost all the work undertaken by SF are of CT ops type, ones where M43 is good for many reasons. For long range ones why couldn't just import more tavors instead of M4s if SF is so fond of tavors?

Ps:in kargil 9th PARAs had used VZs instead of INSAS. Plus army need to do a silenced work which couldn't be done with Uzis then Aks are better options than M4s considering the performance. This deal is more in the interest of colt and Mod than the interest of SF.

There are no good bull-pups Which chamber`s M43, besides many would argue why need another AK when one have VZ-58, Though PARA still have VZ-58 & AKM, In many occasion saw them with both, One is service other is captured, But TAR-21 is liked coz its accurate ( Less Shots & Very stable in suppressive fire )

US lobby at MOD..

VZ-58 was lighter than AKM and reliable as AKM compare to INSAS, And INSAS had many faults during that time..

 

[ALBY]

There are no good bull-pups Which chamber`s M43, besides many would argue why need another AK when one have VZ-58, Though PARA still have VZ-58 & AKM, In many occasion saw them with both, One is service other is captured, But TAR-21 is liked coz its accurate ( Less Shots & Very stable in suppressive fire )

US lobby at MOD..

VZ-58 was lighter than AKM and reliable as AKM compare to INSAS, And INSAS had many faults during that time..

Kunal what about the ammunition to be used in the M4s which is gonna to be inducted?are they compatible with Indian 5.56 ammo perfectly or the deal includes ammunition also as we did in case of galil snipers? What about the performance of M4s chambered for 6.8mm which is operational in some SWAT units?Although I watched its performance compared with G36 in the program world's deadliest warrior in which the later losed,am not completely buying it as it was a commercial program.

 

[Immanuel]

The video shows just dip and take out. The oiling of the machine will prevent mudding and watering. The beauty lies when the rifle is underground or in the water for a month taken out and starts firing.

AK can do that... and only AK can do that. That is how terrorist dump their weapons when not needed for months, just take out when required and it still fires...

the video is a humbug advertisement...

I would like the AK to survive an explosive device and we'll see how it compares to this M-4, this one certainly beats many rifles out there in sheer ruggedness. Everything needs marketing to sell, not a bad Ad in 12 minutes. Whether you dip it in water for a moment or leave it there for a month has little added value. Practically in daily use our soldiers are certainly not going to leave it in water or mud for months. We fortunately don't operate using terrorist tactics. We still have the capability of fighting a respectable war.

Don't get me wrong the AK is great weapon, I have myself fired it many a time, it is one of my favorites but it isn't the only reliable rifle out there. Now whether our soldiers use the AK or any other rifle for that matter, daily quick cleaning is standard procedure, even with the AK.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Kunal what about the ammunition to be used in the M4s which is gonna to be inducted?are they compatible with Indian 5.56 ammo perfectly or the deal includes ammunition also as we did in case of galil snipers? What about the performance of M4s chambered for 6.8mm which is operational in some SWAT units?Although I watched its performance compared with G36 in the program world's deadliest warrior in which the later losed,am not completely buying it as it was a commercial program.

Same Ammo used in INSAS,TAR, OFB ammo is same as NATO ammo no change, AFAIK Galil use OFB 7.62nato same used in FN-MAG..

6.8mm is in RFI for FINSAS Rifle, And have potential..

TV commercials are good in TV..

 

[ALBY]

Same Ammo used in INSAS,TAR, OFB ammo is same as NATO ammo no change, AFAIK Galil use OFB 7.62nato same used in FN-MAG..

6.8mm is in RFI for FINSAS Rifle, And have potential..

TV commercials are good in TV..

I asked coz it was evident from some of your earlier posts the 5.56 ammunition used by NATO forces and that one manufactured by OFB is having changes in operational capabilities just like the 7.62 x39 ones produced in Russia and erstwhile Yugoslavia.
Btw as part of deal some 1.7 lack rounds of snipergrade ammunition for galatz was imported along rifle .the ofb made 7.62 will be compatible with galatz but Israeli ones are sniper grade.

 

[Bhadra]

Water resistance QR is must for bearing the monsoon season operations and jungle operations, operations in the NE where it rains practically all the months, for salty water amphibious operations, canal crossings etc

Good quality greasing and oiling will ensure the weapon will fire after being in water for more than ten minutes. The running parts must run smoothly and lesser these are the better. That is why direct gas action weapons are more rugged.M-4 are piston action.