Lockheed Martin Unveils First New F-16 For Pakistan

[Known_Unknown]

This is the US game. Sell arms to both sides and then wait and see the destruction unfold. Merchants of death-no more, no less.

They want us to stand by and watch while they sell advanced fighters to an enemy which has repeatedly attacked India and still makes petty excuses to avoid bringing the perpetrators of the Mumbai massacre to justice.

They tell us to not worry as this will not "significantly alter" the balance of power in the region, and yet they get their panties in a twist when Venezuela orders Russian jets for their airforce.

Let us hope that the MMRCA order does not go to the Americans, and that our partnership with the Russians develops by leaps and bounds for the mutual benefit of both our nations. At least neither the USSR nor Russia has ever given our enemies weapons to kill our soldiers with.

 

[dineshchaturvedi]

Guys do not underestimate your enemy. When we are buying so much for our defence Pakistan will need to do their part. We are surely going to be better then them in future.

 

[Known_Unknown]

^^^ Not if the US continues to supply them advanced weapons. The point is not to maintain just enough superiority in men and armaments to repel their attacks, but to have enough to attack them first and defeat them in a war scenario that remains below the nuclear threshold.

But our leaders and politicians are too "pacifist" to wage war. It took these leaders 24 years to conduct the second round of nuke tests after the first one. And that too, only because China and France were conducting their last round of tests just then, and we were too scared to go it alone.

I have absolutely zero faith in the Indian polity, in their ability to make strategic decisions taking into account a long term view of Indian interests. When so many of them have pending criminal cases against them for murder, rape, kidnapping, extortion etc, who are we kidding when we clap our hands in self-congratulatory glee after reading the slightest bit of news about India's "transition to superpower status?"

Sorry for the off topic rant. But it seems to me recently that we have a civilizational flaw-that we always tend to bend over according to the idiom of "turn the other cheek". (

 

[StealthSniper]

For my part I don't really trust the Americans from day one and I think they always have a agenda or plan to acheive when they are friendly with another country. Anyways I think that these new F-16 fighters for Pakistan are good air systems and we definitely should not be getting the F-16 or the F-18 for our MMRCA. If all goes well our upgraded MIG-29's should be very comparable to these F-16's and hopefully our Rafale or MIG 35 will be technologically ahead electronically and number wise.

 

[ahmedsid]

Oh man, don't sound like those e-morons of ..... Obiviously, we will have something to counter those newest F-16's, but it doesn't mean that we should go on counting our stength with our incoming assets. Those new F-16 has their own stength and we have ours, but it doesn't obiviate the overall threat posed by these new F-16 till our incoming upgrade and MRCA.

I dont know where I sounded like an emoron, do let me in on it, I just stated a fact. Until all the PAF F16s undergo MLU, and they get hold of all the Blk52, which will be around 2012 minimum, I dont see them anymuch a threat than they are now and I did no wrong by counting our incoming strength, because by 2012 we will also have some upgrades done and more MKIs. I did not count the incoming strength as of now. I counted it when the PAF will be a threat, and that will be around 2012 minimum! Not now.

PAF is a potent fighting force, and they are trained well too, I am in no way discounting them, they have tactics up their sleeves to counter their obvious lack of modern technology. But I dont know how far they will succeed in case of hostility. But yes, these F16s do add a punch, but none to get too worried about, simply because these are not "Cutting Edge".

 

[Known_Unknown]

But yes, these F16s do add a punch, but none to get too worried about, simply because these are not "Cutting Edge".

We should be always worried whenever our enemy gets something that narrows the gap between our own and their defence capabilities. When Kargil happened, one of the main reasons that the PAF hid inside its towns and cities and never challenged the IAF who struck the intruders at will was because of the IAF's BVR capabilities.

Now that edge has been lost. What will happen now when the next Kargil happens?

 

[ahmedsid]

We should be always worried whenever our enemy gets something that narrows the gap between our own and their defence capabilities. When Kargil happened, one of the main reasons that the PAF hid inside its towns and cities and never challenged the IAF who struck the intruders at will was because of the IAF's BVR capabilities.

Now that edge has been lost. What will happen now when the next Kargil happens?

PAF did not hide around during Kargil, they stayed in their part of the LOC. They were regularly doing AP missions near the border and yes they did have a spare parts crunch due to sanctions. We did lock onto them I have read, and yes they lacked BVR then and Now to an extent.

These F16s are not a game changer until and unless they are inducted in numbers, again I repeat, and that will be 2012-13. By that time we too will be two steps higher than what we are now. I am not thumping on our incoming strengths, just telling you all that they planes are not F22s, or Su35s. They are a potent Fighting platform all right, but lets not forget our strengths while counting theirs.

 

[qsaark]

We should be always worried whenever our enemy gets something that narrows the gap between our own and their defence capabilities. When Kargil happened, one of the main reasons that the PAF hid inside its towns and cities and never challenged the IAF who struck the intruders at will was because of the IAF's BVR capabilities.

Now that edge has been lost. What will happen now when the next Kargil happens?

No, the reason the PAF never challenged the IAF was because IAF was operating within the Indian airspace. There have been several ‘lock on’ claimed by both the sides during the Kargil conflict yet they did not materialize as the two air forces remained within their respective airspaces.

BVR is not the end of the world otherwise US/Europe/Israel/China and Russia would have ceased manufacturing WVR AAMs. The WVR AAMs they are making are not for the export market exclusively and also carried by their own front line fighters.

As far as the ‘edge’ is concerned, there is no Aircraft (and is not going to be in foreseeable future) in the PAF’s inventory that comes close to the MKI. What makes the MKI so lethal (in addition to various other features) is its ability to carry over 10 AAMs in various combinations that can be fired in multiple rounds hence will leave little to no chance for the enemy fighter to escape unharmed.

 

[kaykay]

PAF did not hide around during Kargil, they stayed in their part of the LOC. They were regularly doing AP missions near the border and yes they did have a spare parts crunch due to sanctions. We did lock onto them I have read, and yes they lacked BVR then and Now to an extent.

These F16s are not a game changer until and unless they are inducted in numbers, again I repeat, and that will be 2012-13. By that time we too will be two steps higher than what we are now. I am not thumping on our incoming strengths, just telling you all that they planes are not F22s, or Su35s. They are a potent Fighting platform all right, but lets not forget our strengths while counting theirs.

Agreed....but please would anyone tell me if those f-16s are coming with bvr package or just planes only.:icon_salut:

 

[qsaark]

Agreed....but please would anyone tell me if those f-16s are coming with bvr package or just planes only.:icon_salut:

They are coming with AMRAAM-C5. I have read on some Pakistani fora that at least 100 AMRAAM-C5 are already delivered, though I doubt this information personally.

 

[Known_Unknown]

No, the reason the PAF never challenged the IAF was because IAF was operating within the Indian airspace.

Is it? For your kind information, the Indian Army was also operating within Indian territory, but the PA obviously never thought that to be a hurdle for sending your NLI troops into Indian territory.

In any case, your claim is incorrect.....according to your own PAF officers.

While the photo-recce missions typically did not involve deliberate border violations, there were a total of 37 ‘technical violations’ (which emanate as a consequence of kinks and bends in the geographical boundaries). Typically, these averaged to a depth of five nautical miles, except on one occasion when the IAF fighters apparently ‘cocked-a-snoot’ at the PAF and came in 13 miles deep.

In a war situation, especially one that your Army started, even a single such "technical violation" would have provided the excuse for PAF to attack IAF assets. Unless, they were incapable of doing so or feared heavy reprisals.

Short of starting an all-out war, PAF looked at some saner options that could put some wind in the sails after doldrums had been hit. Air Marshal Najeeb Akhtar, the Air Officer Commanding of Air Defence Command was co-opted by the Air Staff to sift the possibilities. Audacious and innovative in equal parts, Air Marshal Najeeb, who had an excellent knowledge about own and enemy’s Air Defence Ground Environment (ADGE), focused on fighter sweep as a possible option. To prevent the mission from being seen as an escalatory step in the already charged atmosphere, PAF had to lure Indian fighters into own territory, ie Azad Kashmir or Northern Areas. That done, a number of issues had to be tackled. What if the enemy aircraft were hit in own territory but fell across, providing a pretext to India as a doubly aggrieved party? What if one of our own aircraft fell, no matter if the exchange was one-to-one (or better)? Finally, even if we were able to pull off a surprise, would it not be a one-off incident, with the IAF wisening up in quick time? The over-arching consideration was the BVR missile capability of IAF fighters which unfavourably impinged on the mission success probability. The conclusion was that a replication of the famous four-Vampire rout of 1st September 1965 by two Sabres might not be possible. A fighter sweep thus came to be a non-starter.

Here for the full article:

PAF in Kargil : A PAF warrior speaks out Pak Tea House

 

[Sabir]

Since 1999 the gap between IAF and PAF has been widened and it will continue widenning in caming days. Only BVR capability can not close this gap for PAF. Whatever little knowledge I have about aircrafts, I believe PAF is shifting to a more defensive mode as light weight F-16 or JF-17 can not be used for arial attack depth in Indian teritorry. There is no reason to think that PAF will unnecessarily bring the trouble by shooting at Indian aircrafts. This year Pakistan media claimed about intrusion of Su-30 MKI in Pakistan air space. PAF , I think felt it prudent not to chase them with F-16.

 

[AJSINGH]

we should not worry about F-16 in PAF , we have way better fighters anyway ( MKI and MMRCA SOON) , our worry should be China

 

[qsaark]

Is it? For your kind information, the Indian Army was also operating within Indian territory, but the PA obviously never thought that to be a hurdle for sending your NLI troops into Indian territory.

In any case, your claim is incorrect.....according to your own PAF officers.

Obviously Pakistan Army’s interpretation of Pakistani territory was different than the one of the PAF’s during the Kargil conflict. PAF was flying CAPs but only to make sure that the IAF was not entering in the Pakistan’s airspace and not attacking the Pakistani troops on the western side of the LOC. This was obviously to keep the conflicted limited.

The fact remains that the IAF did not enter in the Pakistani airspace and did not attempt to attack on Pakistani troops and assets on the western side of the LOC. If the IAF was so invincible due the so-called BVR capability and PAF was so impotent due to the lack of the same, IAF would have attacked on the supply convoys/depots on the other side of the LOC.

In a war situation, especially one that your Army started, even a single such "technical violation" would have provided the excuse for PAF to attack IAF assets. Unless, they were incapable of doing so or feared heavy reprisals.

I don’t think so. It is more about containing the conflict and less about tolerance of such ‘technical violations’. Again, had the IAF had attacked on Pakistani troops or the assets on the western side of the LOC and PAF sat idle than I would accept your theory of ‘incapable of doing’.

Lastly, the debate will be more enjoyable if you try not you use the word ‘YOUR’ so repeatedly. It was not me sitting in the GHQ who had planned the Kargil misadventure nor the folks sitting in the GHQ had the approval or consent of millions of Pakistanis. You want to show your disgust towards the Pakistan’s armed forces due to obvious reasons is understandable but not showing respect towards the common Pakistanis is not doing you any good.

 

[ppgj]

Obviously Pakistan Army’s interpretation of Pakistani territory was different than the one of the PAF’s during the Kargil conflict. PAF was flying CAPs but only to make sure that the IAF was not entering in the Pakistan’s airspace and not attacking the Pakistani troops on the western side of the LOC. This was obviously to keep the conflicted limited.

agree with you. infact their is an interesting account of it by tufail keizer in his blog- Aeronaut

Aeronaut: Kargil Conflict and Pakistan Air Force

The fact remains that the IAF did not enter in the Pakistani airspace and did not attempt to attack on Pakistani troops and assets on the western side of the LOC. If the IAF was so invincible due the so-called BVR capability and PAF was so impotent due to the lack of the same, IAF would have attacked on the supply convoys/depots on the other side of the LOC.

don't know if IAF was invincible but definitely they had the upper hand. IAF wanted just as IA to cross LOC. but the political leadership at that time did not allow that.

 

[ZOOM]

I dont know where I sounded like an emoron, do let me in on it, I just stated a fact. Until all the PAF F16s undergo MLU, and they get hold of all the Blk52, which will be around 2012 minimum, I dont see them anymuch a threat than they are now and I did no wrong by counting our incoming strength, because by 2012 we will also have some upgrades done and more MKIs. I did not count the incoming strength as of now. I counted it when the PAF will be a threat, and that will be around 2012 minimum! Not now.

You did count incoming stength, that is the reason why you said upgrade on MKI by 2012 and addition of Rafale and Mig-35 in your previous post. Just because we have MKI, it doesn't mean that we will scramble our MKI to counter F-16s. We already have all other jets like BVR and EW equipped Mig-21 Bison, Mig-29 and Mirage-2000 to take care of F-16 Block 52. I was bringing this current inventory into question against newest addition of F-16 Block 52 even in small number. It is highly unlikely that we will send MKI over Pakistani airspace rather we would send all other BVR equipped jets, since MKI is equipped for truly long range strikes regardless of its cuttting edge.

 

[mattster]

Oh Boy...I Guess Chinese reverse engineers are going to be busy now ??

Oh Boy.....now that Uncle Sam has sold Pak the the Block 52 F-16 - the Chinese boys are going to have an APG-68 radar on their hands soon and every other spare part.

That will keep them busy for another decade !!

 

[ZOOM]

No, the reason the PAF never challenged the IAF was because IAF was operating within the Indian airspace. There have been several ‘lock on’ claimed by both the sides during the Kargil conflict yet they did not materialize as the two air forces remained within their respective airspaces.

If we consider past battles especially that of 1965 war, then certainly PAF challenged IAF in its own airspace, because then PAF had some much better US made Jets then its Indian counterparts.

BVR is not the end of the world otherwise US/Europe/Israel/China and Russia would have ceased manufacturing WVR AAMs. The WVR AAMs they are making are not for the export market exclusively and also carried by their own front line fighters.

As far as the ‘edge’ is concerned, there is no Aircraft (and is not going to be in foreseeable future) in the PAF’s inventory that comes close to the MKI. What makes the MKI so lethal (in addition to various other features) is its ability to carry over 10 AAMs in various combinations that can be fired in multiple rounds hence will leave little to no chance for the enemy fighter to escape unharmed.

There is a contridication in your both the paragraph. Because first you said, if BVR was end of the world then all other advance countries have rather prefer to cease WVR, but in a second paragraph, you said there is nothing in PAF inventory that can comes close to MKI. If we believe your second paragraph then with the addition of MKI in IAF, it will be the end of the world because MKI itself become formidable because of its BVR weapons.

And yes, other then MKI, there is nothing anything in PAF as of now that can comes close to Mig-29s, Mirage-2000 and Mig-21 Bison with BVR.

 

[ZOOM]

Obviously Pakistan Army’s interpretation of Pakistani territory was different than the one of the PAF’s during the Kargil conflict.

Please tell us what was all those different interpretation was all about?

PAF was flying CAPs but only to make sure that the IAF was not entering in the Pakistan’s airspace and not attacking the Pakistani troops on the western side of the LOC. This was obviously to keep the conflicted limited.

The fact remains that the IAF did not enter in the Pakistani airspace and did not attempt to attack on Pakistani troops and assets on the western side of the LOC.

If this was the case then why does Pakistan always rant about shooting down of lone Mig-21 which violated Pakistani airspace?

If the IAF was so invincible due the so-called BVR capability and PAF was so impotent due to the lack of the same, IAF would have attacked on the supply convoys/depots on the other side of the LOC.

Of course, you we can always have the liberty of considering IAF as a Invincible due to so called BVR capability as far as Mig-29 lock on two F-16s and its subsequent break off from engagement to unlock that Mig-29 Lock on. It only proves that, despite being on CAP, those F-16 were truly vulnerable despite loitering in its own airspace.

and yes not to forget, So you wholeheartdly accept that Pakistan was lying all along during Kargil conflict of not supporting any Mujjahiddin? and it had given whole support to all those occupying Indian Peaks.

 

[ppgj]

Please tell us what was all those different interpretation was all about?

zoom,
qsaark is right in a way. PAF, of all the wings of pak armed forces, is the most pragmatic and realist driven force and to my mind are the best too. in all previous wars with india, it has always been the PA which has been the culprit.
have posted a link in my previous post. it is by a PAF man. it is worhty read.