Lockheed Martin to pitch F-35 for our Indigenous aircraft carrier

[abirbec04]

Dude.....you are confusing the Yanks for Indians. There are very few US defense projects that are white elephants.
Even the ones that were canned by the Pentagon like the V22 Osprey are still supported by the comanders on the field.
Your comments are over the top.

There is a reason why every 5th gen fighter look like the F-35 and F-22.
As for price and delays, etc......every major new aircraft program has been delayed and the price escalates.

If the other fighters perform anything like this one then God save us .......... this is the V22 Osprey you were talking about?

 

[SHASH2K2]

There are many factors why F35 is not going to come to Indian navy in near future.
1. earliest possible induction of F35 can be in 2020 and thats too far away to leave our Aircraft carriers without any planes.
2. Without Cismoa or Beca we will be getting a stealth bomb truck and nothing else will be state of the art. F35 without its advance avionics and sub systems will be useless.
3. Indian navy donot have aggressive doctrine. Their goal is to protect our assets in sea and for that we donot need bomb truck like F35 which have limited AOA capability. For any aggressive attack on Either Pakistan or China it will be IAF that will be doing the job.
4. We need to wait and watch the development of PAK FA and it will be wise to use similar 5th generation platforms for Navy and IAF .

 

[abirbec04]

Nonetheless I also do support one squadron of F-35 just to scare the heck out of our neighbors. Even without the sensors and advanced avionics it would be a strong deterrent as our adversaries won't be sure what the exact specs would be put on board. It doesn't even have to be onboard the ships, just station one squadron at INS Hansa and see the fun.

Mig-29K is nevertheless a very capable aircraft. I don't think India erred in choosing Mig-29 for its carriers.

 

[Rahul Singh]

No it wont be, the trick is to make sure the plane performs to the performance you need out of it.

So the F-35 yes, if it satisfies the requirements that IN envisions for it.

People saying we should buy F-35s as it surpass all the future needs. And my answer was "What good is F-35 if it not the F-35 NATO". Adding on, why should Navy buy F-35C if it will be inferior to NATO and relatively less tactically superior to threats on cards it wins hands down because people are using NATO F-35's features? But nevertheless if Navy finds it fulfilling all the needs then who cares. But is it the case? I think not.

The F-35 is still a plane designed from the get go to have radar signature management as a priority, will be heads and shoulders above a 4th generation plane in that regard.

It was also built from the start to have modern electronics (along with the power, space and cooling they take), instead of them being a mid life add on.

Design will do less if you don't get the proper materials for airframe and i don't see US selling F-35 to Navy with same materials and full spectrum of know how to maintain it. Do take in consideration that F-35 is not as stealthy as F-22 and when its stealthy features are further reduced the jet can end up standing marginally superior to present 4.5++ generation fighters. And this doesn't supports the idea of successfully tackling the threats by fielding less but overwhelmingly superior fighters against those 4th generation fighters.

 

[kuku]

IN doesn't have a hostile doctrine because we have not given them any offensive weapons, they are quite adventurous though, remember the 71 attacks, they figured out that the missiles will lock on to ships or in worst case will lock on to the biggest metal objects (fuel dumps) and sent a bunch of little missile boats, that was some true grit, especially with such small boats that had no protection if a PAF plane did detect them, the carrier strikes on Bangladesh were another swashbuckling example, they did that knowing full well that their planes were of a previous generation and even the limited assets PAF had in Bangladesh could run circles around IN planes.

Remember we do not need US communications equipment unless we plan on communicating with US and NATO networks, and you can risk a ban after a war has happened for such a limited purchase, remember even the bans after the nuclear explosions lasted a couple of years.

 

[kuku]

People saying we should buy F-35s as it surpass all the future needs. And my answer was "What good is F-35 if it not the F-35 NATO". Adding on, why should Navy buy F-35C if it will be inferior to NATO and relatively less tactically superior to threats on cards it wins hands down because people are using NATO F-35's features? But nevertheless if Navy finds it fulfilling all the needs then who cares. But is it the case? I think not.

Design will do less if you don't get the proper materials for airframe and i don't see US selling F-35 to Navy with same materials and full spectrum of know how to maintain it. Do take in consideration that F-35 is not as stealthy as F-22 and when its stealthy features are further reduced the jet can end up standing marginally superior to present 4.5++ generation fighters. And this doesn't supports the idea of successfully tackling the threats by fielding less but overwhelmingly superior fighters against those 4th generation fighters.

We do not know that it is not satisfying the needs of the Indian Navy, so if they buy we have to assume that it does satisfy them.

Let me give you an example, the P-8I, Indian Navy needed a LRMP aircraft, and it knew what it wanted, after surveying the market the US option came up as the best available option based on the minimum performance promised by the US supplier, it wont be as good as the USN P-8 planes, especially in the electronics warfare and intelligence, however it will be what the Navy needs.

Marginally superior at speeds more than that of sound in air, and with missiles with ranges up to 150kms is a huge huge advantage. Further more the 4.5 gen planes have features to reduce radar return as a addition to the design, they will never be in the same figures as the fifth generation planes.

On the oceans fielding a higher number of planes than the opponent is a bit impossible if we have limited carriers, so every plane counts, and should have as much technological edge as possible, its not easy to replace the naval planes and pilots either.

 

[Crusader53]

No thank you. If they give us F-35 (for Navy), Pakistan will demand SuperHornet for its Air-Force, and that will be a very tough adversary against our Su-30 MKI/MMRCA fleet of Air Force.

Navy pilots are loving the MiG-29K. It's very affordable, and suits our neighbourhood best. The farthest we should be willing to go with carrier aircraft is Su-33.

F-35 for navy is both a waste of money, and gives Pakistan a free ride to its next best aircraft.

Sorry, you logic hardly makes sense. First the US is not going to sell the Super Hornet to Pakistan. (its lucky to get F-16's) Plus, the F-35C is vast superior to a any 4.5 Generation Fighter.


As a matter of fact the best that Pakistan will have in the next 10-15 years would be a small number of F-16's and J-10's. Which, the F-35C could take on with ease.

 

[Crusader53]

Agree on that point, in real warfare Indian navy has to phase all these forces simultaneously and hence must have greater capability as well as technological superiority. In any case of confrontation with Pak & chinese forces PAF, PLAF, PAN, PLAN all these forces would be major challenge hence F-35 is a good option for indian navy but I would prefer to have multiple navy fighters rather than going just for one type that is indian navy may have LCAN, F-35, Mig-29K so that all these can be used effectively against any threat.

Indian is never going to match China plane for plane nor can the US for that matter. So, it has to top them with vastly superior types. Which, is the main problem with the Mig-29K. As Indian can't afford to be as good or even slightly better than the PLAAF/PLAN.

So, while the Mig-29K is adequate for the next 10 years. After that it will have to be replaced. Which, explains why the Indian Navy has already placed a RFI on a New Fighter.

Also, I see no problem with the Mig-29K being sold secondhand or even passed onto the IAF. Remember, the MMRCA won't replace every fighter in the IAF Inventory. Plus, let's not forget the the current upgarded Mig-29's will need to be retired around that time. Clearly, the Mig-29K's could replace them for at least another ten years. Until the MCA comes on like........

 

[Crusader53]

As a war fighting plane, a single squadron of F-35 C (catapult launching plane) will be in my opinion more effective for the Indian Navy than more squadrons of MiG-29K or F-18 super hornet, or rafale.

The reason is that the plane is developed by companies who have a lot of experience in designing planes which operate from aircraft carriers (very harsh ocean environment), and the primary role of our naval planes will be of fleet defence and limited strike, we will not be in a financial and geo political position to engage in hostilities far away from our nation in the foreseeable future.

The F-35 provides us with a plane that has high end electronics with radar signature management as a design priority, it will be ideal for fleet defence from incoming threats, it will also be a very good reconnaissance platform as it is able to degrade the performance of any early warning ship or land based radar (by its stealth along) and is quite a good electronic intelligence collecting assset (another design priority), and it can attack those radars along with many other limited targets from sea without giving away its position. Its size and engine fit in nicely into the small-medium carriers we are planning.

The F-35B version has the added burden of maintainability of the vertical lift mechanism which will require more man hours, however it will be able to perform from a lot of the currently planned ships, INS Vik. and IAC-1. It will also be a evolution of the current naval aviation tradition, which i think will make the navy understand the plane much better.

The problem is the time-line, INS Vik and IAC-1 will come out at times when the planes will not be around for purchase and a aircraft carrier without the aircrafts is just a large ship with lots of helicopters, a waste of money, so the Mig-29s have to be purchased, and once they are we can not retire them pre maturly as every rupee we spend on them is through a lot of careful consideration.

If possible i am still in favour of purchasing the F-35Cs for IAC-2 along with the required modifications done on the ship.

The F-35 does not need a lot of its thrust in the all internal weapons carrying stealth mode as there are limited external stores, hence i think it will have the thrust to take off from a ski jump and land with the arrested recovery mechanism, so even when the IAC-2 is in the docks getting repaired the F-35s will be able to perform from the IAC-1 or INS-Vik.

A single squadron will give the Navy the capacity to tremendously increase its capacity, the sheer investment required by our foes to counter them will be worth it.

I do not think the MiG-29K is not a good plane, i think if it performs well i the ocean atmosphere and is has a good availability rate, it will be very potent over the ocean performing as a fleet air defence plane, it has a good thrust to weight ratio, guided by early warning radars it can move very fast to shoot at any threat that the fleet might face, it has a wide variety of long ranged (up to 300 kms) anti shipping missiles to fire at any opposition fleet well outside their anti air measures.

However on strike missions it has the disadvantage of being a plane with radar signature management measures as an addition to the design as opposed to a design requirement, so it will be detected by enemy air and land based early warning radars and will have to fight its way to the target, which is a trouble as the small-medium aircraft carriers we have will have limited number of planes. Still with their induction we have ensured that nations like Pakistan have to burn more money and increase their air defence capability over the sea.

Personally, my bet is the Indian Navy will select the F-35C and operate them from all of her Carriers. Yet, as they come online. Indian will of course operate them as mixed Air Wings until enough can be aquired to replace all of the Mig-29K Squadrons.


BTW I don't see the N-LCA being replaced. As they will be very useful in the Advance Training Role.

 

[Crusader53]

Are the people here in feeling that F-35s which may be supplied to Bharat will be same to those supplied to NATO? People should very well consider that Bharat is neither an ally of US nor it is in any military treaty with US. At no point of time without signing those humiliating agreements Bharat is going to get NATO comparable F-35s. And what good is F-35 if it is not as capable as of NATO and comes with all those strings and headache giving twists?

If, the Indian Navy does aquire the F-35C. It will get the same model as the US and the JSF Partners. Remember, India doesn't have to accept anything it doesn't want. Of course the F-35's will have to be built in the US or at least for the forseeable future. As License Production is off the table at this early stage.

 

[Crusader53]

Dude.....you are confusing the Yanks for Indians. There are very few US defense projects that are white elephants.
Even the ones that were canned by the Pentagon like the V22 Osprey are still supported by the comanders on the field.
Your comments are over the top.

There is a reason why every 5th gen fighter look like the F-35 and F-22.
As for price and delays, etc......every major new aircraft program has been delayed and the price escalates.

As I've said over and over. The F-35 is doing extremely well compare to most Modern Fighter Programs. Which, many seem to forget??? Regardless, even such troubled programs like the A-400 and V-22. Eventually, work out there problems and become very successful long term.

 

[Crusader53]

If the other fighters perform anything like this one then God save us .......... this is the V22 Osprey you were talking about?

Sorry, no pain no gain! You often have to stretch the envelope and take risks! If, you want to provide a superior product! (Which, saves lives and wins wars!)


BTW While the V-22 had it's fair share of problems and unfortunately some lives were lost. It is a truely revolutionary design. That no other aircraft is a similar role can very come close to matching! It is now in service and doing extremely well.:emot100:

 

[Crusader53]

There are many factors why F35 is not going to come to Indian navy in near future.
1. earliest possible induction of F35 can be in 2020 and thats too far away to leave our Aircraft carriers without any planes.
2. Without Cismoa or Beca we will be getting a stealth bomb truck and nothing else will be state of the art. F35 without its advance avionics and sub systems will be useless.
3. Indian navy donot have aggressive doctrine. Their goal is to protect our assets in sea and for that we donot need bomb truck like F35 which have limited AOA capability. For any aggressive attack on Either Pakistan or China it will be IAF that will be doing the job.
4. We need to wait and watch the development of PAK FA and it will be wise to use similar 5th generation platforms for Navy and IAF .

Sorry, any aircraft selected by the Indian Navy will not likely enter service before 2020. Which, is less than ten years off. Also, the F-35 is not a bomb truck with limted AOA Capabilities. It's a Strike Fighter that is vastly Superior to anything currently or project to fly in the next 2-3 Decades.

 

[Crusader53]

People saying we should buy F-35s as it surpass all the future needs. And my answer was "What good is F-35 if it not the F-35 NATO". Adding on, why should Navy buy F-35C if it will be inferior to NATO and relatively less tactically superior to threats on cards it wins hands down because people are using NATO F-35's features? But nevertheless if Navy finds it fulfilling all the needs then who cares. But is it the case? I think not.

Design will do less if you don't get the proper materials for airframe and i don't see US selling F-35 to Navy with same materials and full spectrum of know how to maintain it. Do take in consideration that F-35 is not as stealthy as F-22 and when its stealthy features are further reduced the jet can end up standing marginally superior to present 4.5++ generation fighters. And this doesn't supports the idea of successfully tackling the threats by fielding less but overwhelmingly superior fighters against those 4th generation fighters.

You are making a great deal of assumptions. Which, are being influenced by your bias toward the US. One that is not supported by the Indian Government, Air Force, or Navy. IMO

 

[civfanatic]

If I may ask, why do you care so much about whether or not the Indian Navy inducts F-35s??

A passing interest is fine, but the majority of your 350+ posts are on the topic of F-35s. Surely you must have a reason?

 

[Rahul Singh]

You are making a great deal of assumptions. Which, are being influenced by your bias toward the US. One that is not supported by the Indian Government, Air Force, or Navy. IMO

And these assumption are based on what we read and watch in day to day life. Do i need to put them together? I think not, many of us are quite aware of real face of US in Indo-US partnership. Anyway thanks for your judgement. My bias is towards US but it is true only in the sense that peoples like you find to hard to except the fact the your country doesn't employ weapon sell just for money but as a part of foreign diplomacy with their own definition.

If I may ask, why do you care so much about whether or not the Indian Navy inducts F-35s??

A passing interest is fine, but the majority of your 350+ posts are on the topic of F-35s. Surely you must have a reason?

He is actually lobbying for F-35 like his country which want to make F-35 equally popular by selling it to as many country as they can.

 

[Crusader53]

If I may ask, why do you care so much about whether or not the Indian Navy inducts F-35s??

A passing interest is fine, but the majority of your 350+ posts are on the topic of F-35s. Surely you must have a reason?

Because it is clearly the best option available..

 

[Crusader53]

And these assumption are based on what we read and watch in day to day life. Do i need to put them together? I think not, many of us are quite aware of real face of US in Indo-US partnership. Anyway thanks for your judgement. My bias is towards US but it is true only in the sense that peoples like you find to hard to except the fact the your country doesn't employ weapon sell just for money but as a part of foreign diplomacy with their own definition.


He is actually lobbying for F-35 like his country which want to make F-35 equally popular by selling it to as many country as they can.

So, I should lobby for a less capable aircraft. That will kill Indian Pilots and make the country vulnerable to its enemies???:angry_10:


I think not.......

 

[sesha_maruthi27]

I think crusader is forcefully saying that F-35 is the best. What happend to the world class tag of the F-35, is it being just propagated that F-35 will be the most advanced jet fighter in the world. If it is so,why would U.S. allow INDIA to get its hand on F-35.

 

[Rahul Singh]

So, I should lobby for a less capable aircraft. That will kill Indian Pilots and make the country vulnerable to its enemies???:angry_10:


I think not.......

As Fluffy as boiled rice! If you actually care about Indian pilots then why not start lobbying for X-47B now onwards?