LCA TEJAS MK1 & MK1A: News and Discussion

[ersakthivel]

Going through the full rigour of developing LCA, MCA and AMCA coupled with an indigenous engine for these aircrafts will place Indian Aerospace capabilities as area of Missiles(IGMDP) and Space Launch vehicles. I have been watching this space keenly since I was in class 8, and at that time talk that we are developing LCA felt like we were working on B2 (pardon me for this comparison but that was the most advanced plane for me at the time). 20 yrs. later we can now talk about developing MCA and AMCA. This is a huge success in itself that we can dream for more.

I would be glad if we even take 20 more years and finally catchup with Big Boys. We can do it now with a favorable Govt. at helm and younger minds at work in our laboratories. I feel this is the inflecting point in Indian Aerospace history. I am going to bookmark this video as I did for the first flight of LCA. Thank you Shakthivel Sir for doing this video.

Video is by @bennedose
Only comments r mine

 

[IndianHawk]

That happened due to disintegration of USSR you can check the availability rate of Mig 29 UPG and the cost of upgrade too that Russians charged and compare it with what western platform upgrade cost us.

It is Mig 29k of IN which are facing issues of maintenance as Russia specifically brought naval version of them for Vik. They inducted them too for Russian Navy I think.

Who doesn't loot the customer anyway... What do you think French did with Mirage upgrade or High cost of their equipments?

Russian don't include lifecycle costs in contracts and we didn't used to sign performance based logistics agreement before.

But now things are changing.

You pay one way or other . Either you pay upfront or backwards. If you want high availability high maintainability and high performance at the end western aircrafts beat Russian aircraft .

 

[IndianHawk]

It's not coming on mk1 . It will take a decade to get it done right anyway.

Brahmos NG isn't coming before mid 2020's The current air launched Brahmos is putting lots of strain on Sukhoi and the plan is to use Brahmos NG instead of the current one.

There is no need either to arm mk1 with Brahmos like heavy missile which will take a heavy toll on its airframe.

They will play the role of interceptor/patrol with their BVR capability armed with Derby ER and ASRAAM.

It is mk2 for which these updates are intended who will be doing strike role.

Bramhos Ng will come for lca mk1/mk1a. It's already in planning . That's why mid pylons are strengthened to 1500kg. No point debating about it.

Similarly 40+ su 30 have been strengthened to carry 2500kg bramhos air and will serve full term with this capability.

Also nirbhay air is in development as I posted earlier and now @porky_kicker has again posted images.

 

[Flying Dagger]

Russian don't include lifecycle costs in contracts and we didn't used to sign performance based logistics agreement before.

But now things are changing.

You pay one way or other . Either you pay upfront or backwards. If you want high availability high maintainability and high performance at the end western aircrafts beat Russian aircraft .

They don't include what ? Lol pay for what you want you'll get it. What Russians give no one else does.

As I said before The availability rate of Russian mig 29 UPG is very high in IAF your sources if any are wrong. Infact it is so rugged that can operate in rough airbases and war like situation without much care.

If one wish to score a point then
European jets have a dismal availability rate just take a look at availability rate of typhoon of German airforce.

In short It depends on the customer too.

Bramhos Ng will come for lca mk1/mk1a. It's already in planning . That's why mid pylons are strengthened to 1500kg. No point debating about it.

Similarly 40+ su 30 have been strengthened to carry 2500kg bramhos air and will serve full term with this capability.

Also nirbhay air is in development as I posted earlier and now @porky_kicker has again posted images.

Brahmos NG is intended for Sukhoi first so that it can carry more than one missile.

Brahmos NG will come in mid 20s and will get into Sukhoi first. Mk1 aren't getting it it's not worth the cost as they will be upgraded by the time Brahmos become preferred weapons choice. Mk1a have chance but theyll be used in interceptor role by IAF anyway. By the time it is certified and inducted we will have mk2 which IAF will use to arm 2 NG. As they are supposed to take the role of strike fighter.


2. Nirbhay: Thanks I am aware Nirbhay air is also in development.

 

[ersakthivel]

They don't include what ? Lol pay for what you want you'll get it. What Russians give no one else does.

As I said before The availability rate of Russian mig 29 UPG is very high in IAF your sources if any are wrong. Infact it is so rugged that can operate in rough airbases and war like situation without much care.

If one wish to score a point then
European jets have a dismal availability rate just take a look at availability rate of typhoon of German airforce.

In short It depends on the customer too.





Brahmos NG is intended for Sukhoi first so that it can carry more than one missile.

Brahmos NG will come in mid 20s and will get into Sukhoi first. Mk1 aren't getting it it's not worth the cost as they will be upgraded by the time Brahmos become preferred weapons choice. Mk1a have chance but theyll be used in interceptor role by IAF anyway. By the time it is certified and inducted we will have mk2 which IAF will use to arm 2 NG. As they are supposed to take the role of strike fighter.


2. Nirbhay: Thanks I am aware Nirbhay air is also in development.

Availability rates hv no relationship with ruggedness.

Its mostly about quality , reliability, & availability of spares on time & also depends on the quality& reliability of the fighter


Ordnance carrying capacity of mk1A & mk1 will be similar.Mostly they will hv similar stores release software, to be executed by same mission computer

If brahmos NG fits in a single pylon of naval mig29 (which it should)
Then all tejas version will carry it is my opinion.

At least one teja mk1 or mk1A pylon will be suitable fr itsitweight

There is no question of cost effective ness.

In fact the air launched BRAHMOS integration with SU 30 MKI was done by HAL at shoe string budget

 

[Flying Dagger]

Availability rates hv no relationship with ruggedness.

Its mostly about quality , reliability, & availability of spares on time & also depends on the quality& reliability of the fighter


Ordnance carrying capacity of mk1A & mk1 will be similar.Mostly they will hv similar stores release software, to be executed by same mission computer

If brahmos NG fits in a single pylon of naval mig29 (which it should)
Then all tejas version will carry it is my opinion.

At least one teja mk1 or mk1A pylon will be suitable fr itsitweight

There is no question of cost effective ness.

In fact the air launched BRAHMOS integration with SU 30 MKI was done by HAL at shoe string budget

Thanks for your input but ruggedness to be able to operate in a rough airstrip is key in war like scenario specially in the forward airbases.

And absolutely right If we maintain good enough spare supply the availability rate will be high that's for sure .

Anyway let those missile develop and inducted first and will see how IAF utilise them.

 

[Aaj ka hero]

Anybody have news about INDIA HYPERSONIC development or brahmos-2 or HSTDV no news of these weapons since that test of HSTDV.
Becuase since words such as "we must remain at forefront in developing high speed missiles like brahmos", it's look like we are no where in development of next stage brahmos missile.
And regarding russia we need this country, look they have got the tech and ACCORDING TO ME they are A REACTIONARY POWER like India unlike Chinese and Americans or paki bastards.
If we can't develop hypersonic fast there is no wrong in joint development but NO NEWS OF BRAHMOS-2 hypersonic development has surfaced look like ANOTHER AIR.
Heck not even a test.
THIS WEAPON IS OF NATIONAL IMPORTANCE somebody in twitter point it to our mitroooon PM who loves Gandhi and ninda turtle.

 

[Flying Dagger]

Anybody have news about INDIA HYPERSONIC development or brahmos-2 or HSTDV no news of these weapons since that test of HSTDV.
Becuase since words such as "we must remain at forefront in developing high speed missiles like brahmos", it's look like we are no where in development of next stage brahmos missile.
And regarding russia we need this country, look they have got the tech and ACCORDING TO ME IS A REACTIONARY POWER like India unlike Chinese and Americans or paki bastards.
If we can't develop hypersonic fast there is no wrong in joint development but NO NEWS OF BRAHMOS-2 hypersonic development has surfaced look like ANOTHER AIR.

It is work on progress we will get it . Russia already have them so we will get them soon. MTCR membership have removed any curtain we needed to draw to hide it anyway. Recently we tested 450 km range Brahmos.

A hypersonic air launched missile will make things tough for AMDS around the world . China is getting them too.

And yes Russia is still a powerful nation which have a lot to offer to us.

 

[Defcon 1]

Anybody have news about INDIA HYPERSONIC development or brahmos-2 or HSTDV no news of these weapons since that test of HSTDV.
Becuase since words such as "we must remain at forefront in developing high speed missiles like brahmos", it's look like we are no where in development of next stage brahmos missile.
And regarding russia we need this country, look they have got the tech and ACCORDING TO ME they are A REACTIONARY POWER like India unlike Chinese and Americans or paki bastards.
If we can't develop hypersonic fast there is no wrong in joint development but NO NEWS OF BRAHMOS-2 hypersonic development has surfaced look like ANOTHER AIR.
Heck not even a test.
THIS WEAPON IS OF NATIONAL IMPORTANCE somebody in twitter point it to our mitroooon PM who loves Gandhi and ninda turtle.

Brahmos 2 would just be indianised zircon. So not much research is actually needed. Zircon is yet to be inducted in Russian armed forces. Once it is proven there, the missile will come to India. And anyways there is no pressing need. Its been 18 years since brahmos was first tested and neither Pakistanis nor Chinese have any countermeasures against it yet.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

The development of every indigenous systems by Defense Research and Development Organization (DRDO) has been delayed, which should not come as much of a surprise given the history of DRDO’s tendency to over-promise and under-deliver.

Other projects succeed after delay this one started off very nicely but failed in testing phase and couldn't get IOC or FOC.

 

[ersakthivel]

Thanks for your input but ruggedness to be able to operate in a rough airstrip is key in war like scenario specially in the forward airbases.

And absolutely right If we maintain good enough spare supply the availability rate will be high that's for sure .

Anyway let those missile develop and inducted first and will see how IAF utilise them.

Many thanks.
Brahmos NG development will be preceded by IAF ASQR Specs ,

regarding missile weight , pylon strength needed, which air crafts will carry it etc, etc,

Then only DRDO will develop it.

It's not like let's develop the missile & then see, which fighter can carry it process.

Pretty damn sure IAF wont leave out tejas (400 of its many version will fly fr next 30 yrs).


Because IAF has explicitly special ified tejas to be multi role from start itself,

In fact it's the perfecting of all roles, air to air, ground strike who h delayed its development
So no doubt on tat count

 

[IndianHawk]

They don't include what ? Lol pay for what you want you'll get it. What Russians give no one else does

Read about Vikram Aditya and mig29k purchase fiasco and you might learn how Russian operate.

Regarding bramhos Ng I don't even know why are you debating we'll operate 123 mk1a as all mk1 will be upgraded . IAF will arm them with whatever it has in arsenal.

 

[Flying Dagger]

Many thanks.
Brahmos NG development will be preceded by IAF ASQR Specs ,

regarding missile weight , pylon strength needed, which air crafts will carry it etc, etc,

Then only DRDO will develop it.

It's not like let's develop the missile & then see, which fighter can carry it process.

Pretty damn sure IAF wont leave out tejas (400 of its many version will fly fr next 30 yrs).


Because IAF has explicitly special ified tejas to be multi role from start itself,

In fact it's the perfecting of all roles, air to air, ground strike who h delayed its development
So no doubt on tat count

Ohh that's ok you are welcome

 

[Flying Dagger]

Read about Vikram Aditya and mig29k purchase fiasco and you might learn how Russian operate.

Regarding bramhos Ng I don't even know why are you debating we'll operate 123 mk1a as all mk1 will be upgraded . IAF will arm them with whatever it has in arsenal.

Why should I read about it ? You get what you pay.

Between as I said your Mig 29 UPG bashing is childish IAF consider Mig 29 UPG in high regards and will be getting some more of it.

By end of next decade we will see where NG ends up . It is you who is dragging it. I have already said what i think

But one jet that is getting Brahmos A is IAF's RUSSIAN Sukhoi.

 

[Kharavela]

Read about VikramAditya and mig29k purchase fiasco and you might learn how Russian operate.

India made a huge mistake not being opportunist while USSR was disintegrating. Like a true friend India ordered huge quantities of defence equipments while China opted to employ Soviet Scientists & Engineers en-masse. Soviet brains made China self reliant whereas India still importing every damn equipment.

Coming back to INS Vikramaditya aka Admiral Gorshkov, below is the link for Russian fans:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/INS_Vikramaditya
I am presenting some excerpts:

Baku entered service in 1987, and was renamed Admiral Gorshkov in 1991, but was deactivated in 1996 because she was too expensive to operate on a post-Cold War budget. This attracted the attention of India, which was looking for a way to expand its carrier aviation capabilities. On 20 January 2004, after years of negotiations, Russia and India signed a deal for the sale of the ship. The ship would be free, while India would pay US$800 million for the upgrade and refit of the ship, as well as an additional US$1 billion for the aircraft and weapons systems.

The issue with the delays was compounded by ongoing cost overruns, leading to high-level diplomatic exchanges. India finally agreed to pay an additional US$1.2 billion for the project, more than doubling the original cost.

In July 2008, it was reported that Russia wanted to increase the price by US$2 bn, blaming unexpected cost overruns on the deteriorated condition of the ship and citing a "market price" for a new carrier of US$3–4 bn. India has paid US$400 million as of November 2008. However, Russia even threatened to scrap the deal altogether if India did not pay the amount.In December 2008, government sources in India stated that the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) had finally decided in favour of purchasing Admiral Gorshkov as the best option available. The Comptroller and Auditor General of India (CAG) criticised the fact that Vikramaditya would be a second-hand warship with a limited life-span, which would be 60% costlier than a new one, and there was a risk of further delay in its delivery.

On 8 December 2009, it was reported that India and Russia ended the stalemate over Admiral Gorshkov price deal by agreeing on a price of US$2.2 billion. Moscow was asking for US$2.9 billion for the aircraft carrier, nearly three times the price that was originally agreed between the two sides in 2004. On the other hand, New Delhi wanted the price to be scaled back to US$2.1 billion. Both governments finalised the price of Admiral Gorshkov at US$2.35 billion on 10 March, a day ahead of Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin's two-day visit to India.

In April 2010, a scandal over the project emerged when it was announced that a senior Indian Navy officer had probably been blackmailed in order to influence the negotiations over the cost of Admiral Gorshkov to India. Commodore Sukhjinder Singh had been a senior figure supervising the refit of the carrier, working as the principal director for the project. He was discharged from service due to this incident.

Sent from my ASUS_X00TD using Tapatalk

 

[IndianHawk]

Why should I read about it ? You get what you pay.

Between as I said your Mig 29 UPG bashing is childish IAF consider Mig 29 UPG in high regards and will be getting some more of it.

By end of next decade we will see where NG ends up . It is you who is dragging it. I have already said what i think

But one jet that is getting Brahmos A is IAF's RUSSIAN Sukhoi.

We paid what Russia demanded then Russia demanded three times more for same deal and still delayed the whole thing.

When did I bash mig29 upg?? I pointed out problems with the way Russia deals with spares. About NG plan to integrate it into lca is done deal. You can chose to ignore it. Doesn't change the fact .

 

[IndianHawk]

India made a huge mistake not being opportunist while USSR was disintegrating. Like a true friend India ordered huge quantities of defence equipments while China opted to employ Soviet Scientists & Engineers en-masse. Soviet brains made China self reliant whereas India still importing every damn equipment.

Coming back to INS Vikramaditya aka Admiral Gorshkov, below is the link for Russian fans:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/INS_Vikramaditya
I am presenting some excerpts:










Sent from my ASUS_X00TD using Tapatalk

True. Hopefully we have learned from the fiasco of Vikad and mig29k and refused to fund half baked su57.

Getting out of fgfa was a genius move and now iaf is fully committed to AMCA. Gladdenes my heart.

 

[Assassin 2.0]

One fun question what can be the lowest RCS level which tejas mk1a can achieve after applying RAM. (radar absorbing material).



the 4G F-15 has an RCS of 25m2, not very impressive and bigger than the older Russian MIG fighters. The 4G F16 has an RCS of 5m2, better but still not great. The 4.5G F/A-18 Hornet Navy fighter jet has an RCS of 1m2, about the same as the Russian SU-34/35 and the Chinese J-20. The 5G F-35 has an RCS of 0.005m2, about the size of a golf ball.

 

[Flying Dagger]

One fun question what can be the lowest RCS level which tejas mk1a can achieve after applying RAM. (radar absorbing material).



the 4G F-15 has an RCS of 25m2, not very impressive and bigger than the older Russian MIG fighters. The 4G F16 has an RCS of 5m2, better but still not great. The 4.5G F/A-18 Hornet Navy fighter jet has an RCS of 1m2, about the same as the Russian SU-34/35 and the Chinese J-20. The 5G F-35 has an RCS of 0.005m2, about the size of a golf ball.

And weapons hanging down its bay drop tanks?

May be 2-3 m2 ? If we get to apply good quality RAM.

 

[Flying Dagger]

many claims of Tejas possessing some degree of stealth. Tejas has a Radar Cross Section of 0.5 meter square ( public available figure ) which is among the lowest in 4th Generation Fighter Class.

What if mission is conducted without drop tanks as our adversaries are pretty close. And yes weapons hanging on the bay.

The only statement i remember was that it has RCS of 1/3rd of a light fighter jet and that was made more than a decade ago.

There is no official statement or any other info other than fanboys using the word composite and stealth repeatedly. It will be closer to Gripen .