LCA TEJAS MK1 & MK1A: News and Discussion

[Lancer]

Tejas FOC MK2 is the equivalent of Gripen E.

Can we also accuse SAAB of stupid project management, that has led to " HUGE DELAY" on its part,

Which delayed the induction of Gripen E to Swedish airforce?

HAL projects like HTT 40, etc were all poorly managed is a fact known to all.

The reason is all the design talent if HAL was stripped off to form ADA in the 80s.

So you cant expect expect rocket science from HAL.

And indian pvt sector couldn't give completion to Maruti's Alto, till a couple of years back.

Too much to expect them to spend billions in R&D fruitfully to develop something as cutting edge as tejas.




It was the stubborn resistance of IAF to ADA-HAL proposal of asking fr funds frm govt to set up a dedicated production line to develop tejas PVs ,that sealed the fate of the project,long with US sanctions after N test.

This led Abdul kalam mediating & getting sanction for torturously long development rout of ,Two TDs, and more PVs , LSPs



from HAL's dinosaur era jaguar production line ,
at a galactic phase as a hobby horse.

Because HAL had no financial stakes & an engineering contractor only,
So why do you expect them to channel funds, infra & man power to develop a complex, green field cutting edge tejas, which has no end in sight?

Now all that is past.

Question is why IAF can't order 40 odd FOC Tejas mk1s, without waiting fr mk1 A completion.

Because more orders give financial feasibility that will spur HAL to bolster production capacity, & faster delivery

These things are self perpetuating cycles; nobody puts funds in projects or agencies/departments that have been disappointing in the past or cannot give any serious guarantee of return.

Part of the blame also goes on the Govts which let HAL exist in the form its in, rather than introducing some sort of competition (either multiple such companies owned by the state, or preferably private companies - say what you want, but capitalism forces pvt companies to always find a way).

The tangent on what to expect of HAL is irrelevant; as we have seen, HAL is little more than a screwdriver technology hub, and they can't even get that right; the MiG's and even newer, cutting edge Sukhois they put together frequently fall apart due to what has explicitly been mentioned as poor workmanship, not to mention them cutting corners and costs on parts and occasionally even engines.

As for the current situation; the IAF is already strained for funds, if it wants ~120 more Rafales. And there's no extra money sitting around to buy newly built fighters that won't even be capable without further upgrades (also means that for the money IAF spends, they have that many fewer fighters available). The best idea is to secure a larger commitment from them for MK1A's in the future, and then get at least one private company to open up a second LCA line.

 

[Aaj ka hero]

IAF top brass before manohar parrikar became defence minister did everything in their capacity to finish off tejas., Intentionally or unintentionally is something debatable.

By the end of FSED phase2 itself, Tejas qualified R73 E, with HMDS cueing.

IAF could hv asked ADA to qualify derby, & inducted it straight away, as a pure air to air interceptor

replacing those 100s of obsolete mig21s, rather than insisting on finishing the whole gamut of air to ground roles in totality,

Instead retired chair marshals of IAF were bluffing all kind of stupid stuff on tejas ,

like mig21++ ,
three legged cheetah,
Late Combat Aircraft,
Last chance aircraft, in cohort with import lobby dalals, who double up as defence journos & mil aviation experts in India,


Point to note is these senile gents hv never stepped inside the cockpit of a proper 4.5th gen fly by wire, RSS fighter.

Never managed a lawn mower project in their life,

Never understood the fact that the phased of validating of & Fly by wire software is a time consuming process.

All IAF test pilots who ran the decade long flight testing , consistently rated teja mk1, above mirage in all aspects of close combat agility.

They knew well top speed at service ceiling is an irrelevant concept (ever heard a single french air force gent discrediting rafale because it had lower top speed than mirage2000?)

Test pilots knew even mirage didn't hv the deadly HMDS-R73E CCM & Derby combo.

No serving IAF chief ever contradicted these senile chair marshals in pubic.

Never supported the project by ordering 60 pure air to air tejas versions to replace obsolete migs.

Infact they were all playing with India's defence preparedness & life of young IAF pilots ,


by continuing to let mig21 fly, even after a proven much better tejas has arrived.

Their tom foolery was exposed by PAF retaliatory action after balakot.

If Abhinandhan's capture clips were not on social media,

he wowld hv met the same fate of Capt Saurav Khalia

It was these clips & strong resolve of the modi govt to hit back if he was not released, which secured his release.


Just think if better sense prevailed in 2010, & if IAF had ordered 60 tejasaste pure air to air tejas in 2010 itself aka mk1A type SOP,

PAF would hv eaten humble pea on Operation Swift Retort.Tejas would hv done way better than the migs ,

with its class leading ITR &modern counter measures , it would hv given a much better account of the talent of IAF pilots.

But IAF top brass had other plans,

They kept dreaming on the bank breaking 160 odd MRCA, which they knew no govt had the money to buy,

KEPT changing the goal post fr ADA, delaying tejas induciion,

& Led IAF to a pathetic situation, where half their fleet is flying fossils.

They didn't even get su 30MKI & MIG 29 TO Srinagar base to counter PAF Swift retort, sent Abhi on mig 21,

couldn't establish proper procedure that could hv saved the life of the Mi 17 crew that day.

A miserable failure of leadership.

In any other country a few top officers of air force would hv been sent home by now.


Ok. Past is past.

Cut to the present,

Instead of spending an year over mk1A price,

why they haven't given additional 40 odd tejas mk1 FOC orders.

Don't they know mil aviation is not a road side fast food stall ,

where you can get 5 plates of pizza & 4 plates of burger within half an hour?

Why fool the nation, by claiming we ordered 20 tejas ten years before, but it hasn't been delivered ten years later,etc.

Aircraft production line needs continuous orders fr stabilized production & financial feasibility,

Which set of tier1, tier 2 vendors will keep twiddling their thumbs after setting up a ten fighter per year production capacity ,

& wait fr eons , so that IAF stops writing their endless list of new items to be added to FOC?

Didn't IAF TOP brass knew that 100 S of F35 S are flying in USAF without even IOC?

Didn't they know the gripen A,B, C,D,E route & rafale F1,2,3,4 route of development?

You must blast this on bhadauria sir twitter handle as well as modiji handle because ninda turtle (I don't know what he can do) but some SOLID WORDS of yours should be heard on Twitter this post of yours is TO THE POINT.

 

[Flying Dagger]

How come you are so certain that Nirbhay won't come to LCA ?

Air launched nirbhay weight and features will be same as land / sea launcher nirbhay ?

View attachment 39149

View attachment 39150

View attachment 39151

View attachment 39152

If a uber expensive brahmos Ng is planned for LCA , do you seriously think that a low cost stand off high subsonic air launched Nirbhay will be missing from LCA future inventory ?

That's the beauty of domestically developed weapon systems , you can scale it up or down to suit your platforms and your needs

It's not coming on mk1 . It will take a decade to get it done right anyway.

Brahmos NG isn't coming before mid 2020's The current air launched Brahmos is putting lots of strain on Sukhoi and the plan is to use Brahmos NG instead of the current one.

There is no need either to arm mk1 with Brahmos like heavy missile which will take a heavy toll on its airframe.

They will play the role of interceptor/patrol with their BVR capability armed with Derby ER and ASRAAM.

It is mk2 for which these updates are intended who will be doing strike role.

 

[ersakthivel]

You must blast this on bhadauria sir twitter handle as well as modiji handle because ninda turtle (I don't know what he can do) but some SOLID WORDS of yours should be heard on Twitter this post of yours is TO THE POINT.

I hv made (a 16 tweet)twitter thread of all the points , I hv posted here ,


With a heading
,"countering the fraudulent narrative of advocating the junking of Texjs mk2"

And posted it right under manmohan Bahadur's tweet, which took DRDO to task fr announcing ambitious time line fr mk2
With hash tags
#Tejas_LCA
#TejasMK2
I HV NOT RECEIVED ANY REPLY

 

[Bleh]

Can anybody see a lots of space behind pilot? This can be used for putting additional fuel. This space will not be required to carry oxygen once the OBOG comes in.

That would hinder the ejection seat probably. If they want to fit more fuel in the IAF's Mark1 platform, then they can go they naval Tejas way... Use the twin-seater jet & use the extra room for fuel (my leisure time edits).

 

[ersakthivel]

I hv posted my rebuttals below this tweet as well

 

[ersakthivel]

It's not coming on mk1 . It will take a decade to get it done right anyway.

Brahmos NG isn't coming before mid 2020's The current air launched Brahmos is putting lots of strain on Sukhoi and the plan is to use Brahmos NG instead of the current one.

There is no need either to arm mk1 with Brahmos like heavy missile which will take a heavy toll on its airframe.

They will play the role of interceptor/patrol with their BVR capability armed with Derby ER and ASRAAM.

It is mk2 for which these updates are intended who will be doing strike role.

If brahmos NG IS made light enough to fit in naval mig29 pylon,
It automatically fits in one of tejasmk1's heavier pylon.

 

[Flying Dagger]

IAF has told HAL to deliver 40 first and if there is some delay they'll order more FOC . I read that some time back.

If IAF had allowed HAL to go for say 100 IOC/ FOC they would have never took the pain to come up with mk1a. They have already promised to deliver 24 mk1a every year that means we can put 3 squadrons with 16 jets every two year.

What we all need to do is now become the marketing personnel of Tejas . Stop calling it light combat aircraft.

Always point out range of Derby ER and intended ASRAAM along with Astra missile as it's weapon system.

Brahmos NG is a good marketing tool too.

Elta 2052 AESA radar to be updated with UTTAM AESA later.

I think these point are enough for general consumption .

Keep HAL in check with asking about delivery time and mk1a upgrade.

I mean look at the French we all know their product aren't better than Americans but they market it too well and make sure they extract more price for it.

 

[ersakthivel]

I hv replied to Yusuf's tweet as well,,
,:biggrin2::bounce:

 

[Bleh]

IAF has told HAL to deliver 40 first and if there is some delay they'll order more FOC . I read that some time back.

If IAF had allowed HAL to go for say 100 IOC/ FOC they would have never took the pain to come up with mk1a. They have already promised to deliver 24 mk1a every year that means we can put 3 squadrons with 16 jets every two year.

What we all need to do is now become the marketing personnel of Tejas . Stop calling it light combat aircraft.

Always point out range of Derby ER and intended ASRAAM along with Astra missile as it's weapon system.

Brahmos NG is a good marketing tool too.

Elta 2052 AESA radar to be updated with UTTAM AESA later.

I think these point are enough for general consumption .

Keep HAL in check with asking about delivery time and mk1a upgrade.

I mean look at the French we all know their product aren't better than Americans but they market it too well and make sure they extract more price for it.

What's your opinion on the idea of creating Mark1A based on the older Mark2 preliminary design... with F-414 engine & elongated fuselage?
Surely not MWF, but higher performance & payload than existing Mark1/A platform.

 

[Flying Dagger]

I hv replied to Yusuf's tweet as well,,
,:biggrin2::bounce:

One of the reason I want the third carrier to be delayed till mid 30s . That will guarantee N AMCA getting in perhaps both the carrier.


Between why the sudden criticism for mk2 ?

Ohh wait Yes it has finished chances of Rafale or similar jet to be inducted in big number.

 

[ersakthivel]

This 20 tweet thread summarizes all i hv posted here in the past couple of days.

All factual details,

I replied with this tweet to all who cast aspertion on tejas mk2 & derided tejas mk1 time line.

No one can rebut it with any authority,

Every one is keeping quiet.

Use twitter hash tags to counter pripagapro against tejas

No use in restricting ourselves to threads like this in remote corners of social media.

I was surprised at sudden stream of criticism coming from all quarters ,

just days after nation's attention focussed on tejas program,
Just aftera Rajnath singh took a tejas flight.

 

[Flying Dagger]

What's your opinion on the idea of creating Mark1A based on the older Mark2 preliminary design... with F-414 engine & elongated fuselage?
Surely not MWF, but higher performance & payload than existing Mark1/A platform.
View attachment 39159

I had the same thought brother that should have already happened . But it will be tough for HAL to do alone now and will take time. There are limited human resources and need to be allocated judiciously.

So mk1a is best intermediate solution. May be if we can upgrade them later with f414 while mk2 get enhanced one.

Anyway in a2a role current available thrust will be enough for mk1a to perform all its duty.

 

[ersakthivel]

What's your opinion on the idea of creating Mark1A based on the older Mark2 preliminary design... with F-414 engine & elongated fuselage?
Surely not MWF, but higher performance & payload than existing Mark1/A platform.
View attachment 39159

Not useful

Any airframe modification will lead to a few years of fly by wire revalidation trials,
By the time a bit bigger mk1 A arrives ,

mk2 would hv arrived in testing phase,

ADA is shrewd in designing the mk2 , just at the same spec level of Gripen E or NG,

So that import lobby will hv no room to crib like,
Mk2 has
this range,
that combat load,
this endurance,
That tech weapon
Than Gripen.


Then where is the time needed fr an in between mk1A

With ASEA , Astra & other bells & whistles MK1A is more than enough fr IAF forward bases

 

[ersakthivel]

This is Shiv Aroor's words on Tejas,
BASED ON INPUT FROM IAF PILOTS OF FLYING DAGGERS,

From the horse's mouth,

Enough to shut the shop of legion of trolls , who bite tejas every day

What is Tejas’ status?

“As you probably know, the Tejas began squadron service a few years ago, and the Flying Daggers squadron that flies it is breaking the jets in quite gamely. For all the anticipation and bad blood over years of delays, the squadron has been very pleasantly surprised with the jet. I spent some time with the squadron pilots when I did a back-seat sortie in a Tejas in February. HAL is currently trying to ramp up production to meet the initial order of 40 on the Mk.1. An order for 83 the improved Mk.1A is in the wings, though an actual specimen will likely only begin being tested next year.”

What still needs fixing?
“The Tejas is a nimble, very capable little jet in its class. The thrust, if you will, of the improved Mk.1A will be vastly better (as will) squadron-level maintainability. Even though the baseline Tejas has proven to be far more serviceable than the IAF suspected, the Mk.1A fully addresses the niggles. Several requirements the IAF needs on the Mk.1A have begun being tested. The Mk.1A will be mid-air refuellable, sport an updated internal Radar Warning Receiver (RWR), an external Self Protection Jammer (SPJ) pod and an AESA radar. The IAF has also stipulated that the Tejas Mk.1A needs to be able to fire different types of BVR and close combat air to air missiles. The Tejas has so far fired Vympel R-73 CCMs and a Derby BVR missile. It’ll need to prove itself using the R-77, Python-5 and DRDO Astra too.”

As it stand, is it any good?
“It’s an excellent jet. Apart from the journey to where it is now, I’d believe the men operating it day and night at the squadron in Sulur, and who’ve been tamely taking them abroad and keeping them almost 100% serviceable away from base. The key now is for larger numbers to be inducted faster. HAL has to ramp its production rate up to at least 18-20 a year.”
...

Some inaccuracies r there,

1.mk1A won't hv better thrust over mk1

2.refueling already in mk1 FOC, won't hv to wait fr MK1A.

 

[Flying Dagger]

Not useful

Any airframe modification will lead to a few years of fly by wire revalidation trials,
By the time a bit bigger mk1 A arrives ,

mk2 would hv arrived in testing phase,

ADA is shrewd in designing the mk2 , just at the same spec level of Gripen E or NG,

So that import lobby will hv no room to crib like,
Mk2 has
this range,
that combat load,
this endurance,
That tech weapon
Than Gripen.


Then where is the time needed fr an in between mk1A

With ASEA , Astra & other bells & whistles MK1A is more than enough fr IAF forward bases

And by the time it will lose its edge we will have mk2 ready with Astra mk2 and possibly SFDR and UTTAM AESA . Western border can be secured with it freeing Sukhoi and Rafale to concentrate on China till AMCA arrives.

What we need now is stop gap measure like 2 squadrons of mig 29 from Russia 2+1or 2 Rafale

These 5-6 squadrons will fill the current no. gap in easing good bye to mig 21 and 27 both.

 

[ersakthivel]

And by the time it will lose its edge we will have mk2 ready with Astra mk2 and possibly SFDR and UTTAM AESA . Western border can be secured with it freeing Sukhoi and Rafale to concentrate on China till AMCA arrives.

What we need now is stop gap measure like 2 squadrons of mig 29 from Russia 2+1or 2 Rafale

These 5-6 squadrons will fill the current no. gap in easing good bye to mig 21 and 27 both.

Read my above post with inputs from Flying dagger pilots

Mk1 or 1A will be relevant fr a long time to come

 

[Akula]

I hv replied to Yusuf's tweet as well,,
,:biggrin2::bounce:

Why is Yusuf talking like a Dalal?

 

[Flying Dagger]

This is Shiv Aroor's words on Tejas,
BASED ON INPUT FROM IAF PILOTS OF FLYING DAGGERS,

From the horse's mouth,

Enough to shut the shop of legion of trolls , who bite tejas every day

What is Tejas’ status?

“As you probably know, the Tejas began squadron service a few years ago, and the Flying Daggers squadron that flies it is breaking the jets in quite gamely. For all the anticipation and bad blood over years of delays, the squadron has been very pleasantly surprised with the jet. I spent some time with the squadron pilots when I did a back-seat sortie in a Tejas in February. HAL is currently trying to ramp up production to meet the initial order of 40 on the Mk.1. An order for 83 the improved Mk.1A is in the wings, though an actual specimen will likely only begin being tested next year.”

What still needs fixing?
“The Tejas is a nimble, very capable little jet in its class. The thrust, if you will, of the improved Mk.1A will be vastly better (as will) squadron-level maintainability. Even though the baseline Tejas has proven to be far more serviceable than the IAF suspected, the Mk.1A fully addresses the niggles. Several requirements the IAF needs on the Mk.1A have begun being tested. The Mk.1A will be mid-air refuellable, sport an updated internal Radar Warning Receiver (RWR), an external Self Protection Jammer (SPJ) pod and an AESA radar. The IAF has also stipulated that the Tejas Mk.1A needs to be able to fire different types of BVR and close combat air to air missiles. The Tejas has so far fired Vympel R-73 CCMs and a Derby BVR missile. It’ll need to prove itself using the R-77, Python-5 and DRDO Astra too.”

As it stand, is it any good?
“It’s an excellent jet. Apart from the journey to where it is now, I’d believe the men operating it day and night at the squadron in Sulur, and who’ve been tamely taking them abroad and keeping them almost 100% serviceable away from base. The key now is for larger numbers to be inducted faster. HAL has to ramp its production rate up to at least 18-20 a year.”
...

Some inaccuracies r there,

1.mk1A won't hv better thrust over mk1

2.refueling already in mk1 FOC, won't hv to wait fr MK1A.

It's an old Piece.
Python is dropped

Derby Done

R73 done

ASRAAM will be integrated

Derby ER will be tested soon.

Astra will be integrated too.

Read my above post with inputs from Flying dagger pilots

Mk1 or 1A will be relevant fr a long time to come

I have read them before thanks. I take note of what PAF is getting too.

 

[saketkr]

This 20 tweet thread summarizes all i hv posted here in the past couple of days.

All factual details,

I replied with this tweet to all who cast aspertion on tejas mk2 & derided tejas mk1 time line.

No one can rebut it with any authority,

Every one is keeping quiet.

Use twitter hash tags to counter pripagapro against tejas

No use in restricting ourselves to threads like this in remote corners of social media.

I was surprised at sudden stream of criticism coming from all quarters ,

just days after nation's attention focussed on tejas program,
Just aftera Rajnath singh took a tejas flight.

Going through the full rigour of developing LCA, MCA and AMCA coupled with an indigenous engine for these aircrafts will place Indian Aerospace capabilities as area of Missiles(IGMDP) and Space Launch vehicles. I have been watching this space keenly since I was in class 8, and at that time talk that we are developing LCA felt like we were working on B2 (pardon me for this comparison but that was the most advanced plane for me at the time). 20 yrs. later we can now talk about developing MCA and AMCA. This is a huge success in itself that we can dream for more.

I would be glad if we even take 20 more years and finally catchup with Big Boys. We can do it now with a favorable Govt. at helm and younger minds at work in our laboratories. I feel this is the inflecting point in Indian Aerospace history. I am going to bookmark this video as I did for the first flight of LCA. Thank you Shakthivel Sir for doing this video.