Labour shortage for India Inc projects - CEOs point fingers at MNREGA

anoop_mig25

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 17, 2009
Messages
5,804
Likes
3,151
Country flag
Re: Labour shortage for India Inc projects - CEOs point fingers at MNR

Jairam criticises NREGA scheme; insists on 'skilled employment'

For all those who supports MNERGA , i donot oppose but as Jairam ramesh says (as mentioned in this article) " MNERGA was paying wages for work which was unproductive and created no real assets."

Second there are mis-use of it for eg recently there was news that nurses in privately runed hospital in kerala were paid their wages through MNERGA money.i mean they were shown as employed as mnerga while they were actually working/employed for private hospital in kerala there by swindling public money
 

Bangalorean

Ambassador
Joined
Nov 28, 2010
Messages
6,233
Likes
6,853
Country flag
Re: Labour shortage for India Inc projects - CEOs point fingers at MNR

Blah blah blah - why don't you present a ballpark figure of a daily wage if there were no MNREGA, and then decide for yourself whether you yourself would be comfortable with that kind of pay?

I need to get some facts an figures? Well, I already have provided facts and figures, what have you provided?

Your entire post is a whole lot of gibberish.

Who is going to work on building these highways for a wage that is not influenced by MNREGA? You?

Yes, market must decide a lot of things, especially when it come to the ticket fares you pay to travel in local trains. Practice before you preach.
As I have already told you before, I have always opposed subsidies, including railway subsidy. We both have been on the forum long enough for you to know my views on the subsidy issue. I argued with a forumer very vehemently when railway fares were increased, and he was protesting the nominal fare hike in AC travel. I cannot "practice what I preach" - I can only preach, just as all the rest of us on this forum, including you. I can hardly calculate and shove the non-subsidized fare down the throat of the TTE, can I? If I had been the railway minister, you would be justified in telling me to "practice what I preach". Your advise makes no sense in this context. Petrol deregulation affects my finances to a great extent, and yet I was supportive of the petrol deregulation. Whatever I may be, a hypocrite I am not.

I agree that the CEOs are whining here, but I am against MNREGA for many other reasons, which I have outlined here in previous posts. Let us recognize MNREGA for what it is - an attempt by the Congress to win votes based on subsidy/dole politics, not very different from TN politicians' free TV, free mixer-grinder offers. Wages influenced by MNREGA? Rs. 200 per day for 100 days - as opposed to Rs. 500 per day, all year round (which is the market rate). Giving MNREGA credit for influencing labour rates is giving MNREGA needless credit - MNREGA is a failure even in cementing votes for Congress. At the end of the day, it is just a big hole - yet another NehruGandhi populist scheme, pseudo-socialist in nature, and making the people of this nation addicted to "mai-baap sarkar", which will result in no tangible assets being created.

It's simple really - you just cannot measure the tangible output in schemes like MNREGA. It is just a massive sink. If the same money goes into infra creation (for example), you will have tangible assets for the nation at the end of it, for eternity. And you will also generate employment - not just for the workers, but for everyone upstream in the supply chain. Cement factories, transporters, quarry workers, transporters, saving of millions of liters of fuel (reducing import burden), increased prosperity, increased opportunity for entrepreneurship, and so on - the list is endless.
 

Bangalorean

Ambassador
Joined
Nov 28, 2010
Messages
6,233
Likes
6,853
Country flag
Re: Labour shortage for India Inc projects - CEOs point fingers at MNR

Jairam criticises NREGA scheme; insists on 'skilled employment'

For all those who supports MNERGA , i donot oppose but as Jairam ramesh says (as mentioned in this article) " MNERGA was paying wages for work which was unproductive and created no real assets."

Second there are mis-use of it for eg recently there was news that nurses in privately runed hospital in kerala were paid their wages through MNERGA money.i mean they were shown as employed as mnerga while they were actually working/employed for private hospital in kerala there by swindling public money
This is the whole problem - there are possibly a thousand leaks like this, immeasurable. How do you measure the impact and benefit of such porous and leakege-ridden schemes? MNREGA is a massive monument to Nehruvian socialism. Such massive top-down government-driven projects have ruined the country from decades with no tangible benefits. It is understandable why Congress continues with such schemes, even after decades - but I wonder why some people still fall for it!!
 

jamesvaikom

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 16, 2012
Messages
367
Likes
293
Re: Labour shortage for India Inc projects - CEOs point fingers at MNR

No need to apply the either-or logic here as long as the money spent is not really massive and government cannot afford it. But that is not the reason it is being opposed. It is being opposed on the ground that labourers get wages that are barely above minimum wage by law and so now workers are demanding similar wages in private sector also and Indians who are accostomed to dirt cheap labour think that is too much.
And it is nor like anybody has stopped government from building roads, or money for roads is being diverted to MNREGA, is there any evidence for that? its similar logic like saying why india is sending spaceship to moon when half of indians are living below poverty, both are different things. it is upto the government and administration to use it properly. Infact same labourers can be used for building roads.
If Govt. spend more money for MNREGA then Govt. will reduce money for other activities. I think MNREGA is not allowed to create jobs which are easy to get. Its good to spend money for rural infrastructure. But why can't they construct good roads instead of mud roads? I agree that MNREGA workers are getting less wages. But problem is No: of MNREGA workers are many times higher that No. of tax payers. If a tax payer's money is used to provide jobs to 20 MNREGA workers then that amount is big. Blue-collar workers can't work everyday. So when they wish to take day off from their regular job, they simply work for MNREGA. As I say always the root cause of all problems is population growth. If we control population growth then workers will get wage hikes. Companies will also get more profit because low population density will help them mine more natural resources. Workers earning more money doing productive jobs is better than workers earning less money for doing unproductive jobs.
 

pmaitra

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2009
Messages
33,262
Likes
19,593
Re: Labour shortage for India Inc projects - CEOs point fingers at MNR

As I have already told you before, I have always opposed subsidies, including railway subsidy. We both have been on the forum long enough for you to know my views on the subsidy issue. I argued with a forumer very vehemently when railway fares were increased, and he was protesting the nominal fare hike in AC travel. I cannot "practice what I preach" - I can only preach, just as all the rest of us on this forum, including you. I can hardly calculate and shove the non-subsidized fare down the throat of the TTE, can I? If I had been the railway minister, you would be justified in telling me to "practice what I preach". Your advise makes no sense in this context. Petrol deregulation affects my finances to a great extent, and yet I was supportive of the petrol deregulation. Whatever I may be, a hypocrite I am not.

I agree that the CEOs are whining here, but I am against MNREGA for many other reasons, which I have outlined here in previous posts. Let us recognize MNREGA for what it is - an attempt by the Congress to win votes based on subsidy/dole politics, not very different from TN politicians' free TV, free mixer-grinder offers. Wages influenced by MNREGA? Rs. 200 per day for 100 days - as opposed to Rs. 500 per day, all year round (which is the market rate). Giving MNREGA credit for influencing labour rates is giving MNREGA needless credit - MNREGA is a failure even in cementing votes for Congress. At the end of the day, it is just a big hole - yet another NehruGandhi populist scheme, pseudo-socialist in nature, and making the people of this nation addicted to "mai-baap sarkar", which will result in no tangible assets being created.

It's simple really - you just cannot measure the tangible output in schemes like MNREGA. It is just a massive sink. If the same money goes into infra creation (for example), you will have tangible assets for the nation at the end of it, for eternity. And you will also generate employment - not just for the workers, but for everyone upstream in the supply chain. Cement factories, transporters, quarry workers, transporters, saving of millions of liters of fuel (reducing import burden), increased prosperity, increased opportunity for entrepreneurship, and so on - the list is endless.
Firstly, so we have one area of agreement, that we oppose subsidies. Remove all subsidies I say, instead of being selective.

Secondly, I don't think anyone in this thread appreciates some people abusing the MNREGA scheme, where they are getting paid but are not doing any work. I think I am safe to assume you and I are on the same page here.

Now, coming to MNREGA scheme itself, I don't see anything wrong with it. Let people work and get paid for it, as long as work is getting done. The problem is with corruption, which permeates every level of Indian life.
 

pmaitra

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2009
Messages
33,262
Likes
19,593
Re: Labour shortage for India Inc projects - CEOs point fingers at MNR

This is the whole problem - there are possibly a thousand leaks like this, immeasurable. How do you measure the impact and benefit of such porous and leakege-ridden schemes? MNREGA is a massive monument to Nehruvian socialism. Such massive top-down government-driven projects have ruined the country from decades with no tangible benefits. It is understandable why Congress continues with such schemes, even after decades - but I wonder why some people still fall for it!!
I beg to disagree. I think you are missing the point. There is nothing wrong with socialism, if there is honesty. There is no problem with MNREGA as such, the entire problem is with corruption. If there were no corruption, every single labourer getting paid through MNREGA would have built roads, and dug irrigation canals. There are places where work has been accomplished, as well as there are places where all the money has been gobbled up by corrupt officials and panchayat members.

You can go on criticizing MNREGA as much as you want, but if you don't attack the root cause, i.e. corruption, nothing in this country is going to work. You cannot shut down MNREGA just because there is corruption, just like you cannot shut down arms procurement by the Indian Army just because there was this Bofors Scandal.

Corruption is the problem, not the scheme.
 

MAYURA

Tihar Jail
Banned
Joined
Apr 18, 2013
Messages
888
Likes
250
Re: Labour shortage for India Inc projects - CEOs point fingers at MNR

There is nothing wrong with socialism, if there is honesty.
socialism with honesty is as much reality as white crow is.
 

Bangalorean

Ambassador
Joined
Nov 28, 2010
Messages
6,233
Likes
6,853
Country flag
Re: Labour shortage for India Inc projects - CEOs point fingers at MNR

I beg to disagree. I think you are missing the point. There is nothing wrong with socialism, if there is honesty. There is no problem with MNREGA as such, the entire problem is with corruption. If there were no corruption, every single labourer getting paid through MNREGA would have built roads, and dug irrigation canals. There are places where work has been accomplished, as well as there are places where all the money has been gobbled up by corrupt officials and panchayat members.

You can go on criticizing MNREGA as much as you want, but if you don't attack the root cause, i.e. corruption, nothing in this country is going to work. You cannot shut down MNREGA just because there is corruption, just like you cannot shut down arms procurement by the Indian Army just because there was this Bofors Scandal.

Corruption is the problem, not the scheme.
We do know that implementation of such schemes in India is fraught with imperfections and corruption and inefficiency. We have enough experience in the NehruGandhi era, of totally failed schemes of that sort. These top-down government-driven schemes are a humungous waste of money, and are also poisonous to the long-term financial and general health of society.

Yes, in theory everything can work fine under any scheme or system. NREGA can work fine, PDS can work fine, we can manufacture world-class commercial airliners in our PSUs - everything in theory. The problem here is not just corruption, it is the impossibility of getting the system to work well, to get all cogs in the wheel to move in unison to get tasks done. And at such a humungous level - no way!!

These things are good in textbooks - practically we know that certain systems don't work. It is almost impossible to make certain things work. Why haven't we stopped trying, even after all these decades?
 

pmaitra

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2009
Messages
33,262
Likes
19,593
Re: Labour shortage for India Inc projects - CEOs point fingers at MNR

We do know that implementation of such schemes in India is fraught with imperfections and corruption and inefficiency. We have enough experience in the NehruGandhi era, of totally failed schemes of that sort. These top-down government-driven schemes are a humungous waste of money, and are also poisonous to the long-term financial and general health of society.

Yes, in theory everything can work fine under any scheme or system. NREGA can work fine, PDS can work fine, we can manufacture world-class commercial airliners in our PSUs - everything in theory. The problem here is not just corruption, it is the impossibility of getting the system to work well, to get all cogs in the wheel to move in unison to get tasks done. And at such a humungous level - no way!!

These things are good in textbooks - practically we know that certain systems don't work. It is almost impossible to make certain things work. Why haven't we stopped trying, even after all these decades?
Fair enough, and I agree, and I also believe, that corruption will never go away from India.

What is the solution then?
 

pmaitra

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2009
Messages
33,262
Likes
19,593
Re: Labour shortage for India Inc projects - CEOs point fingers at MNR

socialism with honesty is as much reality as white crow is.
I see the sneaky way you quoted me without using my UID.

In a communist government, socialism is imposed on the people, while in a democracy, people vote for socialism. We have seen this in Europe, in the US, and in India. You are living in a democracy, there will be socialism. Learn to deal with it.
 

Bangalorean

Ambassador
Joined
Nov 28, 2010
Messages
6,233
Likes
6,853
Country flag
Re: Labour shortage for India Inc projects - CEOs point fingers at MNR

Fair enough, and I agree, and I also believe, that corruption will never go away from India.

What is the solution then?
In my personal opinion, one important step is to stop massive government disbursement of money or items through top-down schemes which can never be implemented properly. I am a strong believer in the concept of government limiting itself to those fields where it really needs to be.

In my opinion, the opportunities and avenues for corruption need to come down. There should be minimum interaction with the government and maximum automation. Take the example of new house construction. I need to take plan approvals, electricity approvals, water approvals, road cutting permission, permission from forest department if there are trees in the vicinity to be trimmed, and in some cases, even more permissions. The number of bribes one needs to pay here is high. If there is a single-window mechanism where one submits the plan with all details at the outset, and all permissions including current, water, sewage, road-cutting, etc. are provided at one shot - the avenues for possible corruption have come down from 5 to 1, at one stroke. There is possibly going to be a bribe even at this level, but this is a massive improvement.

The reason I gave this example was to try and put forth an argument that corruption will reduce when there are less avenues for interaction with the government and the government has less of a role to play in citizens' lives. The same argument holds good for industrial licences, land allotment, and a hundred other things.

If the government streamlines its processes and removes red tape, focusing on the mandatory stuff like law and order, judiciary, armed forces, etc. - things will work much better.
 

MAYURA

Tihar Jail
Banned
Joined
Apr 18, 2013
Messages
888
Likes
250
Re: Labour shortage for India Inc projects - CEOs point fingers at MNR

I see the sneaky way you quoted me without using my UID.

In a communist government, socialism is imposed on the people, while in a democracy, people vote for socialism. We have seen this in Europe, in the US, and in India. You are living in a democracy, there will be socialism. Learn to deal with it.
It is not that people vote for it but they have been brainwashed by nehruvian elites into that.


I have learnt to deal with socialistic set up as there is a saying in hindi


na paapi mare na khandahar dahe.

socialism is one such khandahar
 

MAYURA

Tihar Jail
Banned
Joined
Apr 18, 2013
Messages
888
Likes
250
Re: Labour shortage for India Inc projects - CEOs point fingers at MNR

If the government streamlines its processes and removes red tape, focusing on the mandatory stuff like law and order, judiciary, armed forces, etc. - things will work much better.
with some strict laws calling for transparency and greater participation of people through e governance.
 

pmaitra

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2009
Messages
33,262
Likes
19,593
Re: Labour shortage for India Inc projects - CEOs point fingers at MNR

It is not that people vote for it but they have been brainwashed by nehruvian elites into that.


I have learnt to deal with socialistic set up as there is a saying in hindi


na paapi mare na khandahar dahe.

socialism is one such khandahar
Sorry, but you don't have the excuse of "Nehruvian Elite" when it comes to US Elections, or British Elections.

Try again!
 

SLASH

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 5, 2011
Messages
1,156
Likes
459
Re: Labour shortage for India Inc projects - CEOs point fingers at MNR

MNREGA should be restricted to only women. The men can work away from their villages, while their women can work in the village under MNREGA. This way everyone is happy.
 

t_co

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 20, 2012
Messages
2,538
Likes
709
Re: Labour shortage for India Inc projects - CEOs point fingers at MNR

MNREGA should be restricted to only women. The men can work away from their villages, while their women can work in the village under MNREGA. This way everyone is happy.
What? Why would that make everyone happy?
 

sob

Mod
Joined
May 4, 2009
Messages
6,425
Likes
3,805
Country flag
Re: Labour shortage for India Inc projects - CEOs point fingers at MNR

Government has been fixing MSP for Rice and wheat at very attractive levels for the farmers

it was observed (that) the margin of MSP fixed over the cost of production varied between 29 percent and 66 percent in case of wheat, and 14 percent and 50 percent in case of paddy during the period 2006-07 to 2011-12."
what is the impact of this on the rural economy?

The rural markets account for a little over a fourth of Maruti's overall sales. The company sells about 100,000 cars a month. Two per cent of this comes from villages with less than 100 households, says Mr Pareek.

Three years ago, rural sales accounted for about 3.5 per cent of the 68,000 vehicles that the company sold in a month. In April-December 2011, the rural market grew at eight per cent, but in January it grew 16 per cent. The preferred models are Alto, WagonR and Swift.
Driving rural India, the Maruti way | Business Line

Maruti, Hyundai and GM Shift their focus to Rural and Semi-urban Markets | CarDekho.com
When the industry average is in negative growth, rural and semi-urban demand for cars is overriding at 19-25 per cent
 

sob

Mod
Joined
May 4, 2009
Messages
6,425
Likes
3,805
Country flag
Re: Labour shortage for India Inc projects - CEOs point fingers at MNR

Self Delete- Double post
 

tramp

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 17, 2009
Messages
1,464
Likes
580
Are you serious? There won't be hundreds of articles on how MNREGA has benefited many because the beneficiaries do not log on to tell their stories 24/7. Even during the remaining 265 days, they have to struggle to find work rather than sit and write treatises.

And who owns these 'objective' newspapers that try to drill holes into such schemes?

Abuse or misuse is hardly the reason why a scheme of such sweep should be scrapped. Plug the holes.

And these labourers do not stash away the money they get from MNREGA in Swiss banks. It actually gets spent mostly in rural areas. Thus propping up small businessmen and artisans. And we have political leeches seeking suspension of the scheme after they have sucked the country dry for decades.

Why do these CEOs who point to the West to buttress free market arguments never mention how good the social security net there is? Will it amuse them if their huge SUVs and luxury sedans that guzzle subsidized diesel are banned?

We can go on and on debating about the MNERGA. Search Google and hundreds of articles will come out detailing the negative impact of NREGA while the Govt. website will give you the positive impact.

This is a telling storyline from ET.
 

tramp

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 17, 2009
Messages
1,464
Likes
580
I don't think it is causing shortage - the labourers I have seen, all come from various villages. No one is a "native Bangalorean". I was getting a sump built a couple of days back and the labourers were from North Karnataka. These labourers have a lot of work in Bangalore, they are employed all the time, and earn Rs. 500 per day, on an average. They are much better off here, than going for some NREGA scheme which pays them so much less.
Yes they earn much more in Banglore and spend most of the money in Bangalore. And we know how cost of living in Bangalore compares with a North Karnataka village. The Much lower MNREGA pay will enrich rural economy eventually.

My gripe with NREGA is that it is a socialist inspired colossal waste, with money lining the pockets of the implementers. Worse, the money does not create anything tangible in most cases. Tell me this: instead of having such a massive government program with a "NehruGandhi" name, if the same $8 billion is spent on building a highway or a canal every year - that will generate massive employment too, and if you look at the supply chain that goes into the building of a road - cement, stones, the associated transport, etc., the number of people employed directly and indirectly will run into lakhs. And at the end of it you have a piece of infrastructure that will be there with the nation forever, and which will pay rich dividends.

Just don't get into this massive dole business, and massive government grant type of stuff. Invest money in things which benefit the nation.
So is it your point that big projects in India do not suffer from debilitating corruption? You must be day dreamer.

Doles should be opposed for sure. What is necessary is the involvement of the local bodies to pinpoint the projects for which MNREGA funds should be used.
 

Latest Replies

Global Defence

New threads

Articles

Top