Labour shortage for India Inc projects - CEOs point fingers at MNREGA

[pmaitra]

Re: Labour shortage for India Inc projects - CEOs point fingers at MNR

Ha Ha that is the best you could come up with.

Nope, my best was this post (link below) which you have not been able to answer, that you have resorted to simpering. How juvenile.

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...s-ceos-point-fingers-mnrega-3.html#post732855

 

[pmaitra]

Re: Labour shortage for India Inc projects - CEOs point fingers at MNR

PM did you read the article from Tribune you just gave a link to.

Correlation is not causation. People take to drugs and alcohol to escape poverty and debt, which arises out of various reasons. Ask @Tronic about it, and what happened to small farmers.

 

[sob]

Re: Labour shortage for India Inc projects - CEOs point fingers at MNR

Wouldn't that be a personal anecdote

 

[Ray]

Re: Labour shortage for India Inc projects - CEOs point fingers at MNR

Mrs Indira Gandhi wiped out bonded labour forever.

Now, Mrs Sonia Gandhi claims she has wiped out bonded labour through MNERGA.

Which Gandhi did it, if indeed it has been done?

Check out this thread.

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...ongress-tall-claims-bonded-labour-busted.html

 

[pmaitra]

Re: Labour shortage for India Inc projects - CEOs point fingers at MNR

Wouldn't that be a personal anecdote

You seem to have a liking for it.

However, I have some more credible information than personal anecdotes:

Please refer to the bullet points in the link below, and see if MNREGA fits in or not.

Punjab News - PUNJAB PERISHING AS DRUG-ADDICT STATE

 

[Bangalorean]

Re: Labour shortage for India Inc projects - CEOs point fingers at MNR

Well, if you would have read all my comments, you would not have come up with this hair brained comment.

The US gives money for being unemployed, in India, we give money for being employed - there is a big difference. What market does this scheme interfere with? A market where you can exploit people? I am rather happy you are unhappy with this interference of the market. If this scheme weren't there, people wouldn't be able to earn the minimum wage.

When you travel by train, how much money do you pay? I am pretty sure you pay subsidized fares, no?

Pot-Kettle.

And you wouldn't have made this hare-brained statement if you had known that I have been a consistent opposer of subsidies. I was the first one to rejoice when petrol was deregulated. You will make less hare-brained comments like this if you pay attention to the views of forumers here instead of being in your hallucinogenic leftist delusions all the time. Just like we rant about NREGA on the internet but cannot do anything about it, I can rant about subsidies but can hardly do anything about it. So, keep your "pot-kettle" comments to yourself. You are the one to whom the "pot-kettle" analogy needs to be applied, since leftists and 21st century cyber-Jholawalas like you take all the benefits of the liberalization and market reforms, and stick to peddling leftlist snake oil all the same.

 

[Bangalorean]

Re: Labour shortage for India Inc projects - CEOs point fingers at MNR

@pmaitra

You are talking such a whole lot of bullshit, you ought to be ashamed of yourself. Stop pulling out figures from where the Sun doesn't shine. You have proved that you know nothing about India. You are full of theories but have hardly any practical knowledge. You say that an "alternative career option" for me is a labourer at Rs. 30 per day? Which world are you fellows in? What nonsense you talk? An alternative career option for you would be one of the cyber-Jholawalas of the new era who write dreamy articles romanticizing the eternal poverty of India. Actually I would prefer doing the job that the people in the pictures you have posted are doing, rather than be a hypocrite cyber-jholawala peddling snake oil and poison.

Seriously, stop this nonsense of "Rs. 30 per day". In Bangalore, even the mason's helper does not work for less than Rs. 400 per day - the mason himself takes Rs. 600 per day. Electricians and plumbers don't work for less than Rs. 800 per day. My regular plumber and electrician take this much from me, new ones will take Rs. 1000 per day. Yesterday I got a tractor to pick up construction debris and unload it in designated government dumpyard. It costs Rs. 800 per load.

You need to get some facts and figures in hand and talk, instead of being a theory-raja sitting somewhere in the Western hemisphere.

 

[Bangalorean]

Re: Labour shortage for India Inc projects - CEOs point fingers at MNR

Schemes like MNREGA give rise to a dangerous culture of entitlement without any tangible assets being created, and severely harming India's future talent in the long run. And even worst, the amount of leakage and corruption in such massive government entitlements is astronomical. From the creaky PDS system to this latest MNREGA bullshit - our socialists have bestowed this poisonous culture of subsidies and entitlement on the nation, and have eaten the country from within.

And when such schemes are questioned, the shameless socialists will call you "exploiter", "anti-poor", and all other kinds of names. Simple minds think that "there are poooooooor people, we should give them money, then there will be milk and honey throughout the nation".Arundhati Roy, another simple-minded hypocrite woman used to pooh-pooh the telecom revolution in India and say that "poooor people need food, not mobiles". Looking back now, we see what an asinine statement that was. This is the kind of shitty socialist thinking that needs to be smothered and put down forcefully, no matter where it is encountered. Kill the jholawalas!

 

[DivineHeretic]

Re: Labour shortage for India Inc projects - CEOs point fingers at MNR

You have made some good points.

Mechanization will surely reduce demand for labour, but will not eliminate them. Now, for mechanization, we need machines. We will need to build and operate them. I think we will open up a new sector, and generate employment. The concern here is, we will still have people left over with no jobs. I think that is a challenge with any country that has a large population, and not enough space, land, or resources. However, I still believe India should go for mechanization wherever possible, as long as the machines are made locally, and not imported.

I wasn't really talking about complete takeover of the worker jobs by machines. You only need to reduce worker demand by 20-25%, and then the economics of supply and demand will kick in. Once supply/availability of workers exceeds demand, the Corporations will have the power. The wages will crash, as people afraid of being unemployed will accept a lower wage, and if he doesn't, somebody else is always available.

As such, a proper mechanism needs to put in place within the MNREGA IMHO, wherein it is ensured that a fixed minimum number of workers as required by the corporations are at anytime available for the corporations. There are many ways how this can be achieved without major changes.

It is correct that introduction of more machines will additional employment in form of people who are needed to operate/maintain them. But here, essentially skilled workers will be the only ones to benefit, not the semi-literate workers who make up the MNREGA workforce.
And also, in any case, every machine will cut anywhere from 4-100 jobs, while creating less than 1/10th of new employment.

Of course, India will have to go for automation and mechanisation of its factories if it wants to grow and remain competitive. But first the lower strata will have to be given the skills needed to get employment in the new India. This may take a generation to achieve.

 

[Bangalorean]

Re: Labour shortage for India Inc projects - CEOs point fingers at MNR

Of course, India will have to go for automation and mechanisation of its factories if it wants to grow and remain competitive. But first the lower strata will have to be given the skills needed to get employment in the new India. This may take a generation to achieve.

You are right, and the issue is that in India we have lot of unskilled poor workers, who can only do jobs such as lifting loads from one side to another. There are a lot of problems in the construction industry because despite having a huge labour force on paper, skilled labour such as carpenters, plumbers, electricians, etc. are hard to come by. A lot of our really good skilled labour is in the middle East.

Luckily these schemes like NREGA have not totally eaten into the vitals of the country yet. There is a natural progression of skills. People get trained on the job, people in manual jobs like load-lifting impart skills to their children by having them work with experienced carpenters and plumbers, and so on. Gradually, people who plaster walls with cement using wooden scaffolding will be hard to come by, and it will be more cost-effective to have cranes and forklifts doing the job. That is how mechanization will slowly take root in India.

 

[sob]

Re: Labour shortage for India Inc projects - CEOs point fingers at MNR

If somebody has access to Bibek deb Roy's study on the economic impact of the Golden quadrilateral vis a vi the money spent on MNERGA, please post it here.

I had read the synopsis and cannot find it. The sheer number of new industries/business that came up along the Golden Quadrilateral and the subsequent rise in Per Capita income was very surprising. Here was a scheme where jobs were created and the economy benifited and here is a scheme which is going nowhere except making the Village Pradhan a richer man along with the associated bad guys of our politics.

 

[Bangalorean]

Re: Labour shortage for India Inc projects - CEOs point fingers at MNR

^^ if the same money had been spent in creating a "Golden Quadrilateral for goods railways", it would have been as beneficial as the original GQ. But what to do, schemes like NREGA are the stuff that leftist jholawala dreams are made of.

 

[LordOfTheUnderworlds]

Re: Labour shortage for India Inc projects - CEOs point fingers at MNR

Today due to such silly schemes there is a shortage of skilled and semi skilled labour for the industry. The short term pain is there for the industry but then most of them have started investing in systems and equipment towards automation. In a short time when the Govt. dole runs out these leftist economists are going to find out that the number of jobs has drastically reduced.

In a labour intensive industry like Textile, due to automation the mills are able to reduce the workforce by nearly 60% to 70%. If a majority of the mills switch over then what will happen to the jobs. Does the Government have a mechanism to upgrade their skill levels. Today they are happy to let a large percentage of population remain as labourers for ever with no improvement in sight in their near future. If this is MNREGA then it should be scrapped immediately.

We can go on and on debating about the MNERGA. Search Google and hundreds of articles will come out detailing the negative impact of NREGA while the Govt. website will give you the positive impact.

This is a telling storyline from ET.

On one hand you are saying 200 rupees per day for hundred days social security program is creating shortage of labour, on the other hand you are saying the program is total failure and the money does not reach the labourers. These are contradictory statements. If the money is not reaching the labourers at all, how does it cause shortage of labour for other industries.

@pmaitra

You are talking such a whole lot of bullshit, you ought to be ashamed of yourself. Stop pulling out figures from where the Sun doesn't shine. You have proved that you know nothing about India. You are full of theories but have hardly any practical knowledge. You say that an "alternative career option" for me is a labourer at Rs. 30 per day? Which world are you fellows in? What nonsense you talk? An alternative career option for you would be one of the cyber-Jholawalas of the new era who write dreamy articles romanticizing the eternal poverty of India. Actually I would prefer doing the job that the people in the pictures you have posted are doing, rather than be a hypocrite cyber-jholawala peddling snake oil and poison.

Seriously, stop this nonsense of "Rs. 30 per day". In Bangalore, even the mason's helper does not work for less than Rs. 400 per day - the mason himself takes Rs. 600 per day. Electricians and plumbers don't work for less than Rs. 800 per day. My regular plumber and electrician take this much from me, new ones will take Rs. 1000 per day. Yesterday I got a tractor to pick up construction debris and unload it in designated government dumpyard. It costs Rs. 800 per load.

You need to get some facts and figures in hand and talk, instead of being a theory-raja sitting somewhere in the Western hemisphere.

how does the 200 rupees per day for hundred days job in some remote village takes away plumbers and masons and electricians earning 400-800rupees per day in bangalore and mumbai?

 

[Bangalorean]

Re: Labour shortage for India Inc projects - CEOs point fingers at MNR

how does the 200 rupees per day for hundred days job in some remote village takes away plumbers and masons and electricians earning 400-800rupees per day in bangalore and mumbai?

I don't think it is causing shortage - the labourers I have seen, all come from various villages. No one is a "native Bangalorean". I was getting a sump built a couple of days back and the labourers were from North Karnataka. These labourers have a lot of work in Bangalore, they are employed all the time, and earn Rs. 500 per day, on an average. They are much better off here, than going for some NREGA scheme which pays them so much less.

My gripe with NREGA is that it is a socialist inspired colossal waste, with money lining the pockets of the implementers. Worse, the money does not create anything tangible in most cases. Tell me this: instead of having such a massive government program with a "NehruGandhi" name, if the same $8 billion is spent on building a highway or a canal every year - that will generate massive employment too, and if you look at the supply chain that goes into the building of a road - cement, stones, the associated transport, etc., the number of people employed directly and indirectly will run into lakhs. And at the end of it you have a piece of infrastructure that will be there with the nation forever, and which will pay rich dividends.

Just don't get into this massive dole business, and massive government grant type of stuff. Invest money in things which benefit the nation.

 

[LordOfTheUnderworlds]

Re: Labour shortage for India Inc projects - CEOs point fingers at MNR

I don't think it is causing shortage - the labourers I have seen, all come from various villages. No one is a "native Bangalorean". I was getting a sump built a couple of days back and the labourers were from North Karnataka. These labourers have a lot of work in Bangalore, they are employed all the time, and earn Rs. 500 per day, on an average. They are much better off here, than going for some NREGA scheme which pays them so much less.

My gripe with NREGA is that it is a socialist inspired colossal waste, with money lining the pockets of the implementers. Worse, the money does not create anything tangible in most cases. Tell me this: instead of having such a massive government program with a "NehruGandhi" name, if the same $8 billion is spent on building a highway or a canal every year - that will generate massive employment too, and if you look at the supply chain that goes into the building of a road - cement, stones, the associated transport, etc., the number of people employed directly and indirectly will run into lakhs. And at the end of it you have a piece of infrastructure that will be there with the nation forever, and which will pay rich dividends.

Just don't get into this massive dole business, and massive government grant type of stuff. Invest money in things which benefit the nation.

No need to apply the either-or logic here as long as the money spent is not really massive and government cannot afford it. But that is not the reason it is being opposed. It is being opposed on the ground that labourers get wages that are barely above minimum wage by law and so now workers are demanding similar wages in private sector also and Indians who are accostomed to dirt cheap labour think that is too much.
And it is nor like anybody has stopped government from building roads, or money for roads is being diverted to MNREGA, is there any evidence for that? its similar logic like saying why india is sending spaceship to moon when half of indians are living below poverty, both are different things. it is upto the government and administration to use it properly. Infact same labourers can be used for building roads.

 

[Bangalorean]

Re: Labour shortage for India Inc projects - CEOs point fingers at MNR

No need to apply the either-or logic here as long as the money spent is not really massive and government cannot afford it. But that is not the reason it is being opposed. It is being opposed on the ground that labourers get wages that are barely above minimum wage by law and so now workers are demanding similar wages in private sector also and Indians who are accostomed to dirt cheap labour think that is too much.
And it is nor like anybody has stopped government from building roads, or money for roads is being diverted to MNREGA, is there any evidence for that? its similar logic like saying why india is sending spaceship to moon when half of indians are living below poverty, both are different things. it is upto the government and administration to use it properly. Infact same labourers can be used for building roads.

It is not similar to "spaceship logic". The question of whether spaceships are beneficial or not can be debated. But there are some things which are a total waste. Digging a pit and filling with mud immediately is one example of such a "total waste". Pumping water out of a tank and connecting the outlet pipe to the same tank is another example of a "total waste". The latter is harmful in addition to being a total waste.

The reason I commented on this thread to begin with, is the leftist comments - on the one hand saying that the "market must decide things" and in the same breath, saying that NREGA is a wonderful thing.

And my opposition to NREGA is simple - it is yet another gargantuan NehruGandhi socialist project where the government pushes massive amounts of money into the system, filled with leakage and pilferage. Wherever the government has tried to disburse massive subsidized stuff to the public, it is just a way to perpetuate poverty and keep the entire country in glorious romantic poverty, with all the corruption and leakage etc. The purpose of such schemes is quite obvious - it is their thinking that it is the best way to keep themselves in power. They are failing in it, that is a different matter, but at what cost?

 

[gokussj9]

Re: Labour shortage for India Inc projects - CEOs point fingers at MNR

It is not similar to "spaceship logic". The question of whether spaceships are beneficial or not can be debated. But there are some things which are a total waste. Digging a pit and filling with mud immediately is one example of such a "total waste". Pumping water out of a tank and connecting the outlet pipe to the same tank is another example of a "total waste". The latter is harmful in addition to being a total waste.

The reason I commented on this thread to begin with, is the leftist comments - on the one hand saying that the "market must decide things" and in the same breath, saying that NREGA is a wonderful thing.

And my opposition to NREGA is simple - it is yet another gargantuan NehruGandhi socialist project where the government pushes massive amounts of money into the system, filled with leakage and pilferage. Wherever the government has tried to disburse massive subsidized stuff to the public, it is just a way to perpetuate poverty and keep the entire country in glorious romantic poverty, with all the corruption and leakage etc. The purpose of such schemes is quite obvious - it is their thinking that it is the best way to keep themselves in power. They are failing in it, that is a different matter, but at what cost?

I know many cases regarding MNREGA in which laborers just go to the local office, give attendance, sleep their for a few hours and then get the money. The labor costs for farming etc. has been increasing because of this since people are getting money without doing anything. MNREGA is a bit similar to food stamps and allowances in US which politicians especially democrats use to keep the masses vote for them again and again. People really need to understand that there is nothing like free lunch, free means someone else paid for it.

 

[Coalmine]

Re: Labour shortage for India Inc projects - CEOs point fingers at MNR

In my native village i didnt find any people working in NREGA or anything created out of it. But i have heard people talking about it. In one village a big pond have been made using 10 lakh rupees(dont know whether the cost is correct or not) from NREGA.

 

[anoop_mig25]

Re: Labour shortage for India Inc projects - CEOs point fingers at MNR

AFAIK Bonded labour was outlawed in 1975.

Well according to UPA government it ended when they introduce MNERGA

here is link of ADD in one of the paper

Clipping of Mumbai, 15 May, 2013 :readwhere

 

[pmaitra]

Re: Labour shortage for India Inc projects - CEOs point fingers at MNR

@pmaitra

You are talking such a whole lot of bullshit, you ought to be ashamed of yourself. Stop pulling out figures from where the Sun doesn't shine. You have proved that you know nothing about India. You are full of theories but have hardly any practical knowledge. You say that an "alternative career option" for me is a labourer at Rs. 30 per day? Which world are you fellows in? What nonsense you talk? An alternative career option for you would be one of the cyber-Jholawalas of the new era who write dreamy articles romanticizing the eternal poverty of India. Actually I would prefer doing the job that the people in the pictures you have posted are doing, rather than be a hypocrite cyber-jholawala peddling snake oil and poison.

Seriously, stop this nonsense of "Rs. 30 per day". In Bangalore, even the mason's helper does not work for less than Rs. 400 per day - the mason himself takes Rs. 600 per day. Electricians and plumbers don't work for less than Rs. 800 per day. My regular plumber and electrician take this much from me, new ones will take Rs. 1000 per day. Yesterday I got a tractor to pick up construction debris and unload it in designated government dumpyard. It costs Rs. 800 per load.

You need to get some facts and figures in hand and talk, instead of being a theory-raja sitting somewhere in the Western hemisphere.

Blah blah blah - why don't you present a ballpark figure of a daily wage if there were no MNREGA, and then decide for yourself whether you yourself would be comfortable with that kind of pay?

I need to get some facts an figures? Well, I already have provided facts and figures, what have you provided?

Your entire post is a whole lot of gibberish.

^^ if the same money had been spent in creating a "Golden Quadrilateral for goods railways", it would have been as beneficial as the original GQ. But what to do, schemes like NREGA are the stuff that leftist jholawala dreams are made of.

Who is going to work on building these highways for a wage that is not influenced by MNREGA? You?

The reason I commented on this thread to begin with, is the leftist comments - on the one hand saying that the "market must decide things" and in the same breath, saying that NREGA is a wonderful thing.

Yes, market must decide a lot of things, especially when it come to the ticket fares you pay to travel in local trains. Practice before you preach.