Know Your 'Rafale'

[BON PLAN]

If Su-57 design is promising I'm sure Turkey will be more interested in it than Su-35.

Su35 is ready. Su57 not.
I see, for Turkey, Su35 as an interim fighter, for saying 36 to 48 units, before switching a last batch to Su57.

 

[BON PLAN]

F-35's fibermat technology is known to have full spectrum effectivity against radar bandwidths. It's stronger than earlier RAM as in fact a fybermat rag is installed in the entrance to LM factory and has been stepped on, jumped on, stomped on, for tens of thousands of times and yet everytime it is checks it still retain its VLO qualities. Aldo, F-36s figermat can be applied on field without need of climate controlled facility.

Sure not.
All the low band radars can see it, as they see B2.

 

[BON PLAN]

Well nothing is invisible to EM spectrum. F35 pilots themselves have said that UHF radars can easily detect them but can not provide weapons tracks due to poor accuracy. But if you combine it with VHF radars and Xband radars you can get a pretty good weapons track.

Yes !
another usefull combo : UHF radar and IR seeker missile. F35 IR trace is not stealthy, even without after burner.

 

[asianobserve]

Well nothing is invisible to EM spectrum. F35 pilots themselves have said that UHF radars can easily detect them but can not provide weapons tracks due to poor accuracy. But if you combine it with VHF radars and Xband radars you can get a pretty good weapons track.

I need a quote for this claim. As far as I know fibermat technology includes mitigation of being detected by low frequency radars. If they are detected by low frequency radars then it means that F-35 is already close to the rsdar.

 

[asianobserve]

Jane's has not all the information needed to do so.
If RCS was so easy to calculate, no one would use real tests chamber..... And Jane's may have a near real shape model to make some compute, but not the spec of the skin materials and RAM used.
So it's laughable.

Jane was simply quoting from Sukhoi's patent for PAKFA. So this RCS figure is was actually Sukhoi's own data.

 

[asianobserve]

Su35 is ready. Su57 not.
I see, for Turkey, Su35 as an interim fighter, for saying 36 to 48 units, before switching a last batch to Su57.

Last time I checked Russian Air Force has already started serial production of Su-57. The first unit under serial production will be delivered to the Russian AF later this year and then unto frontline service.

So Su-57 is essentially ready to go. It would only need engine swap later since the Russian government already guaranteed that Su-57's real engine is almost ready.

 

[asianobserve]

Yes !
another usefull combo : UHF radar and IR seeker missile. F35 IR trace is not stealthy, even without after burner.

It's still has much lower IR signature than Rafale with its exposed exhaust nozzle.

 

[abhay rajput]

I need a quote for this claim. As far as I know fibermat technology includes mitigation of being detected by low frequency radars. If they are detected by low frequency radars then it means that F-35 is already close to the rsdar.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.businessinsider.com/f-35-russia-china-radar-counter-stealth-2017-5
Adversaries have to build a kill chain," said Flatley, a former F-35 pilot. Just because a radar can find an object - and Russian VHF radars can spot F-35s - doesn't mean it can fix, track, target, and consummate that kill chain with a missile hit, he said.

 

[asianobserve]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.businessinsider.com/f-35-russia-china-radar-counter-stealth-2017-5
Adversaries have to build a kill chain," said Flatley, a former F-35 pilot. Just because a radar can find an object - and Russian VHF radars can spot F-35s - doesn't mean it can fix, track, target, and consummate that kill chain with a missile hit, he said.

This topic is better discussed in the F-35 thread. Anyway, on the RAM coating of F-35 and its effectiveness on a wide range of radar bandwidths LM has "fiber mat" technology that is developed using carbon nanotubes (CNT) that absorbs EM waves from 0.1 MHz to 60 GHz. That includes low frequency bands to X-bands.

https://aviationweek.com/site-files.../2017/12/12/State of Stealth FINAL 121317.pdf

 

[BON PLAN]

Last time I checked Russian Air Force has already started serial production of Su-57. The first unit under serial production will be delivered to the Russian AF later this year and then unto frontline service.

So Su-57 is essentially ready to go. It would only need engine swap later since the Russian government already guaranteed that Su-57's real engine is almost ready.

The first 10 Rafale F1 were poorly operationnal (only air to air, with short range Magic2 missile !).
The first 200 F35 will probably never be operationnal.
So is probably Su57. just wait some years.

 

[BON PLAN]

It's still has much lower IR signature than Rafale with its exposed exhaust nozzle.

Rafale engine is 7.5T when those of F35 is 18T.
Rafale engine has a cold air enveloppe plume from construction (something EJ200 don't have)
And IR trace not only come from engine ! The frame also can be hot. Remember that F35 was (is?) obliged to open the hatchs every 10 minutes to cool itself.

 

[BON PLAN]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.businessinsider.com/f-35-russia-china-radar-counter-stealth-2017-5
Adversaries have to build a kill chain," said Flatley, a former F-35 pilot. Just because a radar can find an object - and Russian VHF radars can spot F-35s - doesn't mean it can fix, track, target, and consummate that kill chain with a missile hit, he said.

Indeed.
It's exactly the purpose of the SPECTRA electronic counter measures of the Rafale.
SPECTRA meaning in frenche : System de Protection et d'Evitement des Conduite de Tir du RAfale = Rafale Fire Line Protection and Avoidance System. The goal of SPECTRA is to avoid any system to built a fire solution.

 

[BON PLAN]

This topic is better discussed in the F-35 thread. Anyway, on the RAM coating of F-35 and its effectiveness on a wide range of radar bandwidths LM has "fiber mat" technology that is developed using carbon nanotubes (CNT) that absorbs EM waves from 0.1 MHz to 60 GHz. That includes low frequency bands to X-bands.

https://aviationweek.com/site-files/aviationweek.com/files/uploads/2017/12/12/State of Stealth FINAL 121317.pdf

Too good to be true, specially with a relatively small thickness.
Sure it can reduce the RCS, but not in the same manner and with the same result for all wavelenght.

 

[asianobserve]

The first 10 Rafale F1 were poorly operationnal (only air to air, with short range Magic2 missile !).
The first 200 F35 will probably never be operationnal.
So is probably Su57. just wait some years.

Rafale engine is 7.5T when those of F35 is 18T.
Rafale engine has a cold air enveloppe plume from construction (something EJ200 don't have)
And IR trace not only come from engine ! The frame also can be hot. Remember that F35 was (is?) obliged to open the hatchs every 10 minutes to cool itself.

F-35 has extensive cooling in its fuselage around the engine:

To suggest therefore that F-35 needs to open its weapons bays every 10 mins is ridiculous.

 

[BON PLAN]

F-35 has extensive cooling in its fuselage around the engine:

To suggest therefore that F-35 needs to open its weapons bays every 10 mins is ridiculous.

It was. I don't know if it's always true.

 

[asianobserve]

It was. I don't know if it's always true.

That will be absurd to have a VLO jet but which VLO quality is compromised by weapons bay doors that opens every 10 minutes. Remember that this is not the first time Lockheed Martin has developed VLO jets with weapons bay doors. First is F-117 which as far as I know do not suffer from the malaise you mentioned, and the F-22 which also do not have suffer this kind of problem.

 

[abhay rajput]

Rafael is better then any plane on offer in mrca 2.0 .. and it will be selected

 

[BON PLAN]

That will be absurd to have a VLO jet but which VLO quality is compromised by weapons bay doors that opens every 10 minutes. Remember that this is not the first time Lockheed Martin has developed VLO jets with weapons bay doors. First is F-117 which as far as I know do not suffer from the malaise you mentioned, and the F-22 which also do not have suffer this kind of problem.

Sure it was not studied to need to open the bays, but the compacity of the plane, edded to the necessary weight reduction may have reduced the thermal insulation.
As said earlier : at lest in a near past, it was necessary to open the bays sometime to reduce the temperature inside

F117 was another beast : it was easier to studied because the plane was only for air to ground purpose, and in only one version, with "poor" avionic.
F35 suffered from beeing declined in 3 versions, and specially the STOVL one, and the emphasis for air to air missions grow during the dev phase. During the developpment it became heavier and heavier, so the different weight reduction phases didn't help to stabilize the whole balance between too many objectives.

I think withour STOVL variant the plane would have been easier to studied with less flaws.

 

[asianobserve]

Sure it was not studied to need to open the bays, but the compacity of the plane, edded to the necessary weight reduction may have reduced the thermal insulation.
As said earlier : at lest in a near past, it was necessary to open the bays sometime to reduce the temperature inside

F117 was another beast : it was easier to studied because the plane was only for air to ground purpose, and in only one version, with "poor" avionic.
F35 suffered from beeing declined in 3 versions, and specially the STOVL one, and the emphasis for air to air missions grow during the dev phase. During the developpment it became heavier and heavier, so the different weight reduction phases didn't help to stabilize the whole balance between too many objectives.

I think withour STOVL variant the plane would have been easier to studied with less flaws.

What you're talking about has nothing to do with your earlier allegation that F-35s have to open their internal weapons bay doors every 10 minutes due to heat build up. I pointed out to you that 1) there is no such report or issue; 2) the F-35 has built in internal cooling system around the engine from air scopes under both wings that direct cold air inside the fuselage around the engine; and 3) If there is such problem then the first fighter that should suffer from it is the F-22 as it has 2 engines and thus should produce more heat inside its fuselage. But F-22s has no such problem.

So this claim is balloony.

 

[WolfPack86]

BON PLAN is EC- h 145 helicopter is for maharastra police or is for maharastra cm and governor.