Know Your 'Rafale'

IndianHawk

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I think IAF has pushed govt for this as squadron level will come down to 25 in next few years and there is a growing fear of loosing the conventional edge even to pakistan,these rafales would see service till atleast 2050 ,it is large money at play but you have to do what you have to do ,mwf and amca is good programme but you need numbers fast and you need conventional superiority and rafales provides both but it is still a speculation , a lot of things would be cleared when Modi goes to G7 in France.View attachment 37592
We are not loosing edge of Pakistan as 80% of paki airforce is beyond obsolete. There mirage Iii and v are 50 years old ! They are just show piece.
Their 100 jf17 don't have bvr capabilities. Even paki piolet admired that in recent interview to hushkit.

And if falling sq strength is a concern than order 36 more rafale + 40 more lca mk1 + 40 more lca mk1a + 40 more su30mki.

There you have 156 fighter within next 6-7 years.


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Frontrunner

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Whatever has to happen must happen quickly. A decision has to be made instead if the constant waffling and circus going on since 2001.

We simply cannot keep accepting the status quo that our most important front line airbases have 50 yr old MiG-21s and S-125 SAM batteries to defend the most volatile border in the world

Something has to move

For Gods sake they still haven't bothered to build a single HAS capable of housing an SU-30 anywhere along the western or northern front. What kind of leadership is handling affairs at Air HQ one wonders
Yeah true.. worth considering one thing world works on shared interest.. french are pure businessmen.. if they have specially invited modi for g7 .. then there is something cooking behind the scenes.. with ghost of rafale scam in bottle.. as india voted for modi with a better mandate.. giving him clean chit in rafale.. it seems french nd indian side is filled with fervour seeing the prospect of rafale entering in IAF in big no.. there is also one news about shifting complete rafale production line to india... As for nos.. we have managed to manufacture 270 odd mkis.. with money being distributed around 10-12 years .. i guess we will be able to finance 200 odd rafale.. with future tranche added.. only bone in contention would be the complete transfer of technology..
 

uoftotaku

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Can this deal be in exchange of Safran giving engine tech for Kaveri?????
Safran is already working on it as part of 36 deal offsets. However Kaveri has no support from user side and PSU is making difficulty due to unwillingness to take constructive criticism about their original failed design. They differ with Safran assessment about what needs to be changed / re-designed
 

aarav

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Safran is already working on it as part of 36 deal offsets. However Kaveri has no support from user side and PSU is making difficulty due to unwillingness to take constructive criticism about their original failed design. They differ with Safran assessment about what needs to be changed / re-designed
There are reports that kaveri would be used in UCAV DRDO is developing
 

uoftotaku

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There are reports that kaveri would be used in UCAV DRDO is developing
Kaveri in current form is an afterburning low bypass turbofan for supersonic application.

UCAV Ghatak requires a non-afterburning medium bypass turbofan for sub sonic fuel efficient cruise application.

There are specific changes needed to make this transition. However as far as I know, that is NOT the focus of the current collaboration with Safran which is limited to coming up with an operational version for Tejas (even though there are plans to actually use it on any planned version of Tejas yet)
 

McSnipes

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Rafale jets coming to India! IAF to receive first batch of French fighters in September




Indian Air Force (IAF) is getting ready to receive the first batch of four `Rafale’ fighter aircraft from Dassault Aviation in France next month.

These state-of-the-art Rafale fighter planes are twin-engine multi-role fighter aircraft, nuclear-capable and can engage in both air-to-air and air-to-ground attacks. After receiving these combat aircraft equipped with Meteor missile, SCALP ground attack missiles with a range of up to 300 Kms will undergo extensive trials before being formally inducted in the service in 2020. These aircraft are also fitted with AESA radar, SPECTRA Electronic Warfare System and IRST System.


IAF pilots and ground crews are undergoing extensive training in France and will test these machines intensively for 1,500 hours for validating the specifications requested by India. These new machines will be based at Ambala Airbase in ‘Golden Arrows’ 17 Squadron which is closer to the Western border with Pakistan. The Ambala Airbase is also home to the Jaguars, which due to their rapid deployment capabilities is deployed to deal with incidents from Pakistan.

The other squadron of the Rafale fighters are expected to be based out of Hashimara, West Bengal and this will be in an effort to tackle any incidents coming from China, according to sources.

The pilots of the IAF have had an opportunity to fly these aircraft at the recently concluded Garuda joint Air Force exercise, where the French side had sent in Rafale and Mirage aircraft for the war games. Even during Ex-Varuna joint naval exercise, The French side had sent in Rafale aircraft which were in a combat drill with Indian Navy’s Russian MiG-29 K fighter machines.

These four aircraft are being delivered in September to the IAF as per the contract and the whole order of 36 fighter jets (two squadrons) will be concluded in the next two years. The contract for 36 fighter jets was inked in September 2016, with the French government and Dassault Aviation for around Euro 7.8 billion.

Link: https://www.financialexpress.com/de...atch-of-french-fighters-in-september/1674248/
 

kunal1123

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Safran is already working on it as part of 36 deal offsets. However Kaveri has no support from user side and PSU is making difficulty due to unwillingness to take constructive criticism about their original failed design. They differ with Safran assessment about what needs to be changed / re-designed

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economictimes.indiatimes.com
DRDO, French company talks on Kaveri jet engine crash
By Manu Pubby
3-4 minutes
NEW DELHI: The plan to develop the indigenous Kaveri fighter

jet engine
as part of the Rafale offsets deal with the help of French technology is believed to have fallen through after the Indian side found the pricing prohibitive.

At least three people, who were part of the discussions, told ET that the project is now as good as over. The engine was supposed to power the indigenous Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) as well as future fighter jets.

The talks with French engine manufacturer Safran, which makes the engines and electronics for the Rafale fighters, seem to have hit a roadblock after it emerged in detailed studies that only a part of the offsets — just over €250 million — could be utilised for the project. Defence Research and Development Organisation would have had to provide the remaining €500 million, said sources.

ET has learnt that DRDO did not find this price reasonable and is no longer considering the upgraded Kaveri engine for the next batch of 83 LCAs to be made in India or the Mark-2 version of the jet planned in the near future. The fighter jets are now likely to be powered by engines supplied by US’ General Electric. DRDO has spent more than €240 million on the Kaveri project so far without success.



Four Years of Work Needed

As per the Rafale contract, French companies have to invest 3.4 billion euros worth of offsets in India by 2023. Of these, Safran alone has to execute offsets in excess of 580 million euros. The company, sources said, is now struggling to fulfil its obligations.




Other firms undertaking offsets for the Rafale deal — Dassault, Thales and missile manufacturer

MBDA
— have already submitted detailed plans to execute their obligations and have commenced work with Indian partners.

Sources told ET that advanced talks on reviving the Kaveri engine took place between DRDO and the French manufacturer, which were followed by a detailed project assessment, which brought out that four years of work was needed to get the engine back on track.

As per the proposal being discussed, the Kaveri engine, which was more or less abandoned as a project in 2014 since it did not provide enough thrust for the fighter jets, was to be modified into a worldclass product with transfer of technology as well as manufacturing rights.

Engines are the most critical systems on fighter jets, and few nations have been able to master the technology to manufacture them. Rough estimates show that for a fleet of 200 LCAs in service, the cost of engines alone would be in excess of 25 billion euros over the lifecycle of the planes.

India has been struggling to develop its own combat jet engine despite efforts stretching over two decades. Efforts are also on to develop a graded down ‘Ghatak’ version of the Kaveri engine for use in the unmanned aerial combat vehicle being developed by India.
 

uoftotaku

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Kindly refrain from quoting Pubby man vomit as anything with even casual relationship with fact.

The man is a totally unique species imbecile
 

kunal1123

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Kindly refrain from quoting Pubby man vomit as anything with even casual relationship with fact.

The man is a totally unique species imbecile
I KNOW but whe rafale deal made in sept 16 new was to make kaveri files lca around nov-dec 18 but it didn't happen and this is not first such news so no wonder it can be true.
india have already spend estimated more than US$640 millionin kaveri
so either there are already talk for new engine development with safaram for that 200 unit deal or it's nort happninh(and we r developing BY OUR SELF )
 

uoftotaku

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I KNOW but whe rafale deal made in sept 16 new was to make kaveri files lca around nov-dec 18 but it didn't happen and this is not first such news so no wonder it can be true.
india have already spend estimated more than US$640 millionin kaveri
so either there are already talk for new engine development with safaram for that 200 unit deal or it's nort happninh(and we r developing BY OUR SELF )
There is an entire thread on Kaveri on this forum. You can read through and see all the news without relying on media reports
 

BON PLAN

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There is no magic in western technology. India is happy to have whatever works. Rafale is bought only because France has offered technology transfer. The $4 billion offset involves this. Otherwise, buying western plane instead of Russian ones merely because India already has them doesn't make sense. Russian planes have indigenisation and hence can be overhauled or made in India. MiG29 can be overhauled in India whereas Su30 can be made in India. If western planes offer lesser indigenisation, obviously, it will be rejected.



Who told you that India is buying F18 planes? Why does India need F18 when it has no aircraft carrier from which it can operate?
No.
The offset costs were just added to the dry price.
Rafale is the most versatile plane so far. It is nuclear able. It has one if not the most potent electronic suit on the market. It is Meteor integrated. It won on technical eval, not on some financial deal.
 

vampyrbladez

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Here you go ......

Indian Navy also has a joint working group (JWG) with the US Pentagon for designing an aircraft carrier. In fact, the proposed design of INS Vishal bears a strong American signature, with advanced features like the “electro-magnetic aircraft launch system” (EMALS) that exists only on the latest US aircraft carrier, USS Gerald R Ford.
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2019/05/budgetary-woes-put-indias-super-carrier.html?m=1

“We have answered queries from the Indian Navy and the simulation analysis is done. At some point we will also take off from a US Navy ski jump. We feel very comfortable that we will pass the requirements with a meaningful and significant payload,” Dan Gillian, Program Manager F/A-18 at Boeing says.
https://m.economictimes.com/news/de...icant-payload-boeing/articleshow/65119474.cms
 

uoftotaku

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As I said more rafale orders expected
There's no doubt that 36 more will be ordered at the very min. The fact that the initial deal included support infra for the additional planes (equip 2 sqds at each base) is indication enough.

There's also no doubt that being a politically sensitive issue (needlessly due to noise made by Pappu) the follow on deal will be thought through a hundred times before order is placed..to the general detriment of the iAF and the national security apparatus.

It remains to be seen whether MSD are willing to expend more of their political capital on this issue or sacrifice security in favor of giving jobless Oppn less traction to shout

Additional 36 here + 114/110 for MMRCA 2.0 will give enough to equip 8 front-line sqds + 1 training / operational conversion unit
 
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Frontrunner

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There's no doubt that 36 more will be ordered at the very min. The fact that the initial deal included support infra for the additional planes (equip 2 sqds at each base) is indication enough.

There's also no doubt that being a politically sensitive issue (needlessly due to noise made by Pappu) the follow on deal will be thought through a hundred times before order is placed..to the general detriment of the iAF and the national security apparatus.

It remains to be seen whether MSD are willing to expend more of their political capital on this issue or sacrifice security in favor of giving jobless Oppn less traction to shout

Additional 36 here + 114/110 for MMRCA 2.0 will give enough to equip 8 front-line sqds + 1 training / operational conversion unit
Look it has to be either of rafale as mmrca 2.0 or rafale additional order of 36 aircraft.. remember current 36 aircraft deal was signed as a stopgap arrangement.. since the original deal was cancelled... Instead being conscious of IAF dwindling squadrons strength.. it was concluded that to cater to the IAF needs a g2g order for 36 rafale was placed for the time being nd MMRCA 2.0 to be initiated simultaneously...
Rafale future order can only come through mmrca 2.0 strategic partnership model.. as it will entail India's private industry to foray into aerospace industry.. ending monopoly of infamous HAL.. it will also involve opening a manufacturing line separately in india with high level of TOT absorption.. meanwhile HAL nd DRDO can continue there efforts towards Tejas MWF nd AMCA... By this IAF will have two separate manufacturers for two different aircrafts.. significantly increasing it's currently plagued Sqaundrons strength....

So what's the use of ordering additional 36 rafale of the shelf.. even if we place an order now.. it will be from 2023-2024 for the first aircraft to arrive.. that is the same time mmrca2.0 deal will be concluded.. with manufacturing to start at 2025-2026.. so it's serves no purpose to order additional rafale.. nd anyways most eminently IAF coffers are already empty with planned induction of S-400 from 2020-2024 nd induction of 83 Tejas mk1A..
 

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