Know Your 'Rafale'

[BON PLAN]

But during last negotiations dassault claimed Indian manufacturing will take longer manpower hours and total cost would escalate making it more costly than eurofighter.

YES, but it was with HAL (HAL needed 2.7 far more man hours to built a Rafale than french workers...).
It's why Dassaut (for economic reason) and Indian politic top brass (to avoid the lazy HAL) worked to developp a new private aerospace compagny : Dassault-Reliance.

 

[Armand2REP]

This article states that if rafale was made locally it would lose lowest bidder status. This means rafale will cost much more than what is flyaway price from France. This issue is still here. There has been no indication of solution of cost escalation with Indian manufacturing.

And without Indian manufacturing buying 114 rafale will be a slap on face of make in India .

None of the other bidders got to the point of cost analysis with HAL. If they did they would suffer the same cost overruns and still would not have been L1. That is just lazy journalism to not figure that out.

Reliance making Rafale is Make in India and it will be made better and more cost efficient as Dassault will be directing production and giving quality assurance guarantees.

 

[IndianHawk]

YES, but it was with HAL (HAL needed 2.7 far more man hours to built a Rafale than french workers...).
It's why Dassaut (for economic reason) and Indian politic top brass (to avoid the lazy HAL) worked to developp a new private aerospace compagny : Dassault-Reliance.

And we have no price information available for reliance - dassault venture.

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[IndianHawk]

None of the other bidders got to the point of cost analysis with HAL. If they did they would suffer the same cost overruns and still would not have been L1. That is just lazy journalism to not figure that out.

Reliance making Rafale is Make in India and it will be made better and more cost efficient as Dassault will be directing production and giving quality assurance guarantees.

I hope you are right. But there is no way to confirm other than wait for a new deal with new price quotation.

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[BON PLAN]

And we have no price information available for reliance - dassault venture.

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Not officialy....
But you can be sure Dassault is working on it until the very first Falcon nose cone built in DRAL....

 

[Kchontha]

If you are on the verge of a technological breakthrough or a high end technology facing obsoleteness these people will sold you even their mothers. Pump in more funds towards indigenous defence r&d or dual use. Don't be a technological dumping site.

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[BON PLAN]

If you are on the verge of a technological breakthrough or a high end technology facing obsoleteness these people will sold you even their mothers. Pump in more funds towards indigenous defence r&d or dual use. Don't be a technological dumping site.

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Why this sentence ?

 

[Kchontha]

I am talking about how technology are sold, transferred, how business are done and why r&d is a must in Indian context because we cant depend on import all the times.

Why this sentence ?

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[BON PLAN]

I am talking about how technology are sold, transferred, how business are done and why r&d is a must in Indian context because we cant depend on import all the times.

You're right .

 

[BON PLAN]

FOR FUN :
https://hushkit.net/2019/05/28/dass...ctly-by-2045-three-injured-in-press-briefing/

 

[ram singh तोपची]

this is an open question please feel free to answer . which combat air craft should India go for to fulfill its 114 air craft requirement or what ever may be the number taking every thing into consideration like price, geopolitics , maintenance cost , weapons , censers etc......................etc . the options that we have i think is f 18 [some version] f 16/21 [almost same sh-t different name],SAAB gripen ,Eurofighter Typhoon, Dassault Rafale and mig 35 please support your reasoning with logic

 

[BON PLAN]

this is an open question please feel free to answer . which combat air craft should India go for to fulfill its 114 air craft requirement or what ever may be the number taking every thing into consideration like price, geopolitics , maintenance cost , weapons , censers etc......................etc . the options that we have i think is f 18 [some version] f 16/21 [almost same sh-t different name],SAAB gripen ,Eurofighter Typhoon, Dassault Rafale and mig 35 please support your reasoning with logic

Rafale for sure.
- 36 are already on order. It's a too small fleet to stay at this small number.
- 2 air bases are already accomodated for Rafale. That means that 72+ Rafale can be park on these 2 bases. Indian just have to adapt 2 more air bases for a total fleet of 150 (36+114), when any other competitor need 4 bases to be adapted.
- Rafale is already fitted with some improvements specially dedicated to the IAF need. Any other competitor will need this kind of developpment, ie more cost.
- Rafale is fully multirole. It's not the case at such an extent of some competitors.
- Rafale logistics may be shared with Indian Navy Rafale in case of.
- Rafale radar is among the very few in the world market to be AESA, and with 6 years of RETEX behind it (you can add the 15 years of PESA experience).
- Rafale SPECTRA is a jewel. Used during a training against british EF200, before the brits decided not to train against Rafale because they were always smashed , the EF were unable to track the Rafale. They "diseappear" from the EF screens.....
- There is a very strong road map for the future : F4 on track, F5 on R&D.... (F21 is a old horse, EF will never be fully multirole and the AESA radar is late, Mig35 is a revamped Mig29, SH is heavy and slow moving, Gripen E is not operationnal and a little bit light)
- Add the agility, the load capacity, the range....

 

[Vijyes]

Rafale for sure.
- 36 are already on order. It's a too small fleet to stay at this small number.
- 2 air bases are already accomodated for Rafale. That means that 72+ Rafale can be park on these 2 bases. Indian just have to adapt 2 more air bases for a total fleet of 150 (36+114), when any other competitor need 4 bases to be adapted.
- Rafale is already fitted with some improvements specially dedicated to the IAF need. Any other competitor will need this kind of developpment, ie more cost.
- Rafale is fully multirole. It's not the case at such an extent of some competitors.
- Rafale logistics may be shared with Indian Navy Rafale in case of.
- Rafale radar is among the very few in the world market to be AESA, and with 6 years of RETEX behind it (you can add the 15 years of PESA experience).
- Rafale SPECTRA is a jewel. Used during a training against british EF200, before the brits decided not to train against Rafale because they were always smashed , the EF were unable to track the Rafale. They "diseappear" from the EF screens.....
- There is a very strong road map for the future : F4 on track, F5 on R&D.... (F21 is a old horse, EF will never be fully multirole and the AESA radar is late, Mig35 is a revamped Mig29, SH is heavy and slow moving, Gripen E is not operationnal and a little bit light)
- Add the agility, the load capacity, the range....

Most importantly, Rafale is likely to be fully made in India with full design IP transfer. Without technology transfer, Rafale hardly makes sense as a long term solution for air force

 

[ram singh तोपची]

- Rafale SPECTRA is a jewel. Used during a training against british EF200, before the brits decided not to train against Rafale because they were always smashed , the EF were unable to track the Rafale. They "diseappear" from the EF screens
did not know about it our su 30s threshed them on there own turf in fact Eurofighter Typhoon is big time basura [ garbage in Spanish ]

 

[ram singh तोपची]

Rafale for sure.
- 36 are already on order. It's a too small fleet to stay at this small number.
- 2 air bases are already accomodated for Rafale. That means that 72+ Rafale can be park on these 2 bases. Indian just have to adapt 2 more air bases for a total fleet of 150 (36+114), when any other competitor need 4 bases to be adapted.
- Rafale is already fitted with some improvements specially dedicated to the IAF need. Any other competitor will need this kind of developpment, ie more cost.
- Rafale is fully multirole. It's not the case at such an extent of some competitors.
- Rafale logistics may be shared with Indian Navy Rafale in case of.
- Rafale radar is among the very few in the world market to be AESA, and with 6 years of RETEX behind it (you can add the 15 years of PESA experience).
- Rafale SPECTRA is a jewel. Used during a training against british EF200, before the brits decided not to train against Rafale because they were always smashed , the EF were unable to track the Rafale. They "diseappear" from the EF screens.....
- There is a very strong road map for the future : F4 on track, F5 on R&D.... (F21 is a old horse, EF will never be fully multirole and the AESA radar is late, Mig35 is a revamped Mig29, SH is heavy and slow moving, Gripen E is not operationnal and a little bit light)
- Add the agility, the load capacity, the range....

- Rafale SPECTRA is a jewel. Used during a training against british EF200, before the brits decided not to train against Rafale because they were always smashed , the EF were unable to track the Rafale. They "diseappear" from the EF screens
did not know about it our su 30s threshed them on there own turf in fact Eurofighter Typhoon is big time basura [ garbage in Spanish ]

 

[IndianHawk]

this is an open question please feel free to answer . which combat air craft should India go for to fulfill its 114 air craft requirement or what ever may be the number taking every thing into consideration like price, geopolitics , maintenance cost , weapons , censers etc......................etc . the options that we have i think is f 18 [some version] f 16/21 [almost same sh-t different name],SAAB gripen ,Eurofighter Typhoon, Dassault Rafale and mig 35 please support your reasoning with logic

To answer this question first we have to ask if 114 fighter tender is replacement of mmrca or it is a separate requirement.

We had mmrca requirement of 126 fighter we chose rafale ordered 36.

We also had to replace 250 mig 21/23 with lca .
But lca delayed and orders are only 123 mk1/mk1a . So IAF wanted 114 single engine fighter to replace MIGs along with lca.



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[BON PLAN]

To answer this question first we have to ask if 114 fighter tender is replacement of mmrca or it is a separate requirement.

We had mmrca requirement of 126 fighter we chose rafale ordered 36.

We also had to replace 250 mig 21/23 with lca .
But lca delayed and orders are only 123 mk1/mk1a . So IAF wanted 114 single engine fighter to replace MIGs along with lca.



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In fact MMRCA collapsed because it was not possible to find a proper solution about :
- Man labor qty by HAL to produce Rafale (far too big).
- The warranty about the Rafale built by HAL : Dassault was not allowed to make a production supervision and quality overview, but had to give a full warranty about these planes. It was unacceptable, and in case of problem would have put Dassault in big troubles, possibly to death.

114 single engine fighters? I don't think so. Tejas is made for that. You can be sure all will be made to increase production rate and efficiency of your first modern fighter (mk1a, mk2 ?)

 

[IndianHawk]

In fact MMRCA collapsed because it was not possible to find a proper solution about :
- Man labor qty by HAL to produce Rafale (far too big).
- The warranty about the Rafale built by HAL : Dassault was not allowed to make a production supervision and quality overview, but had to give a full warranty about these planes. It was unacceptable, and in case of problem would have put Dassault in big troubles, possibly to death.

114 single engine fighters? I don't think so. Tejas is made for that. You can be sure all will be made to increase production rate and efficiency of your first modern fighter (mk1a, mk2 ?)

Iaf has issue conflicting statement regarding 114 fighter tender. They have said previously that mmrca and SEF are different procurement program. Lca is coming but they need 114 fighters like yesterday!

Although with mwf unveiled I hope SEF is gone and lca and mwf are way forward.

If that theory is true then all is left to order more rafale.

But IAF insists of reaching 42 sq by 2032. That means
840 fighters

Let's see 280 su30mki.
123 lca mk1/mk1a
66+21 mig29 upgrade
48 mirage upgrade
114+36 rafale
It's 688 birds
Only of mwf is ready by 2027 and ordered 24 a year then we can have 120 mwf by 2032
Totalling 800 fighter.

Well it seems this could work . The only question is rafale price negotiation then.

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[Vijyes]

- Rafale SPECTRA is a jewel. Used during a training against british EF200, before the brits decided not to train against Rafale because they were always smashed , the EF were unable to track the Rafale. They "diseappear" from the EF screens
did not know about it our su 30s threshed them on there own turf in fact Eurofighter Typhoon is big time basura [ garbage in Spanish ]

EF typhoon has PESA radar and is extremely prone to jamming. But Spectra is useless in front of modern AESA radars. Su30 has PESA radar but it has arrays similar to AESA and has high jam resistance, though not jamproof like AESA. I don't know if SPECTRA can jam Su30

 

[ram singh तोपची]

Iaf has issue conflicting statement regarding 114 fighter tender. They have said previously that mmrca and SEF are different procurement program. Lca is coming but they need 114 fighters like yesterday!

Although with mwf unveiled I hope SEF is gone and lca and mwf are way forward.

If that theory is true then all is left to order more rafale.

But IAF insists of reaching 42 sq by 2032. That means
840 fighters

Let's see 280 su30mki.
123 lca mk1/mk1a
66+21 mig29 upgrade
48 mirage upgrade
114+36 rafale
It's 688 birds
Only of mwf is ready by 2027 and ordered 24 a year then we can have 120 mwf by 2032
Totalling 800 fighter.

Well it seems this could work . The only question is rafale price negotiation then.

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so what exactly is the requirement of IAF in terms of numbers and types