Know Your 'Rafale'

Advaidhya Tiwari

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Writing your own codes? The source code is Russian, any changes to it has to be certified by their engineers so it doesn't conflict with anything else. If you
India can integrate its own weapons system without seeking Russian help. So, the codes may have been shared with India in that case.

Nevertheless, France would not give away its encryption keys to anyone, even India. So, it is unlikely that France will allow Meteor to be integrated into Indian UTTAM either
 

Gessler

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Do you see any logic in your retarded argument?

Why would France give their code to India when India is also a third party? Why would France allow India to get into their radar and softwares and permanently compromise French systems for a one time payment?
Isn't that what Russians did when they allowed Astra (even with Indian seeker) to be integrated on Su-30MKI?

In future, Astra will be integrated on Tejas with Israeli radar as well.

You think we did all this without approval and sharing of codes from Tikhomirov and Elta?

India is not a third party. India is the second party in a buyer-seller deal where India is buyer and whichever country the missile is coming from is the seller. How is India third party? Third party would be a country which is not buying either the missiles or the radars from the seller, but would still get access to the codes regardless.

You seem to lack comprehension of simple concepts.

The integration codes are kept secret because that can also compromise algorithm and communication channels. So, if the codes are given to India, then too the radar will be compromised. So, such codes are never given to anyone else.
There is approval to sell something to X country means the codes can also be shared by said country. Problem is created when a third country that does not have approval to get the said product is also poised to get access to the relevant codes.

Again, a retarded argument. Rafale was initially flown using F404 engine and then switched to M88. F18 was initially with F404 and then switched to F414. So, please keep your foolish argument to yourself.
Rafale production variants never carried F404, only prototypes, and integration of M88 required significant re-testing. But that was in TD stage itself. If for example India asked for IAF Rafale to be equipped with a different engine, that would have taken 2-3 additional years to test and certify. These are operational realities.

F-18s upto C/D Hornet had F404. Only the F-18E/F Super Hornet had F414, which is significantly redesigned plane. Comparing the two is like comparing Tejas Mk-1 and Mk-2.

Then again, what else can be expected from a person of your level of intellect.
 

Advaidhya Tiwari

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Isn't that what Russians did when they allowed Astra (even with Indian seeker) to be integrated on Su-30MKI?
India used Astra with Russian seekers till 2017. Only in 2017 did India get its own seeker. When did India take Russian help for integration? India integrated itself

India is not a third party. India is the second party in a buyer-seller deal where India is buyer and whichever country the missile is coming from is the seller. How is India third party? Third party would be a country which is not buying either the missiles or the radars from the seller, but would still get access to the codes regardless.

You seem to lack comprehension of simple concepts.
You think that talking grammar of 2nd and 3rd party will do the job?

The point here is that the weapon alone is sold without selling the Technology or encryption. Acting like retards saying that France will give encryption keys to India for some money is absurd. Just like USA doesn't allow integration of its AIMRAAM into any non USA radar, similarly, France also refuses to allow the Integration of meteor. Meteor is sold only for use in French systems, not any other

There is approval to sell something to X country means the codes can also be shared by said country. Problem is created when a third country that does not have approval to get the said product is also poised to get access to the relevant codes
Nonsense. Sale of item is just sale of item, not codes, encryption or Technology. Giving away encryption keys mean that the entire algorithm can be looked at and codes copied. It is as good as giving away the algorithm.
Rafale production variants never carried F404, only prototypes, and integration of M88 required significant re-testing. But that was in TD stage itself. If for example India asked for IAF Rafale to be equipped with a different engine, that would have taken 2-3 additional years to test and certif
I never said integration can happen overnight. In fact, making a Tejas itself will take 7 month. So, 2 year is not a big issue.

Secondly, Tejas MK2 will have MTOW of 17.5 tons. Expecting that heavy lift for dry thrust of 59kN and wet thrust of 98kN is foolish. Dry thrust is 20% short than required 70kN and wet thrust is short by 13-15% compared to 110kN. Expecting F414 to be used in MWF (Tejas MK2) will be highly retarded. Since India doesn't have any comparable engine for now, F414 will be used for time being

But it is beyond your level of intellect to understand that engines can be changed too.
F-18s upto C/D Hornet had F404. Only the F-18E/F Super Hornet had F414, which is significantly redesigned plane. Comparing the two is like comparing Tejas Mk-1 and Mk-2.
I agree with F18 being modified to become super hornet and it was a wrong example. Nevertheless, your retarded argument that engine can't be changed has been refuted with Rafale engine change.
 

Gessler

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India used Astra with Russian seekers till 2017. Only in 2017 did India get its own seeker. When did India take Russian help for integration? India integrated itself
So you're implying that India violated end-user agreements?

And will do the same with Israeli radar on Tejas in future? And with RBE-2 on Rafale as well (Astra integration on Rafale is very likely).

You think that talking grammar of 2nd and 3rd party will do the job?

The point here is that the weapon alone is sold without selling the Technology or encryption. Acting like retards saying that France will give encryption keys to India for some money is absurd. Just like USA doesn't allow integration of its AIMRAAM into any non USA radar, similarly, France also refuses to allow the Integration of meteor. Meteor is sold only for use in French systems, not any other
BS. It's all about individual approvals to nations on country-by-country basis.

US allows integration of AMRAAM on Typhoon and Gripen...both have non-American radars. And Sweden is actually non-NATO country.

MBDA allows integration of Meteor on Typhoon, Gripen, F-35...all are non-French systems.

Derby integrated on Israeli F-16I with American radar.

You think all this is done without approval & sharing of integration codes between countries? It is as I said: if a country is given clearance to buy a certain product, it can also be cleared for receiving integration codes ON A CASE-BY-CASE basis.

I never said integration can happen overnight. In fact, making a Tejas itself will take 7 month. So, 2 year is not a big issue.
Even if everything goes to plan realistically without any unforeseen delays, Tejas Mk-2 will come by around 2030. Who is willing to have an additional 2-3 year time on top of that?

Secondly, Tejas MK2 will have MTOW of 17.5 tons. Expecting that heavy lift for dry thrust of 59kN and wet thrust of 98kN is foolish. Dry thrust is 20% short than required 70kN and wet thrust is short by 13-15% compared to 110kN. Expecting F414 to be used in MWF (Tejas MK2) will be highly retarded. Since India doesn't have any comparable engine for now, F414 will be used for time being
Mk-2 in its presently-defined configuration will understandably adopt the F414EPE (Enhanced Performance Engine) variant which provides sufficient thrust. It is only logical option.

It's just common sense that they will adopt EPE.



I agree with F18 being modified to become super hornet and it was a wrong example. Nevertheless, your retarded argument that engine can't be changed has been refuted with Rafale engine change.
Show me where I said engines couldn't be changed? Making up false arguments attributed to me because you are unable to face the real arguments?

I only said changing of an engine to a completely different model is an expensive & time-consuming process that is best avoided unless it is coming alongside a new-build plane, or brings some revolutionary technological improvement over the existing model.

I don't see what an imaginary future version of Kaveri can bring to the table that the existing F414EPE cannot.
 

Armand2REP

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India can integrate its own weapons system without seeking Russian help. So, the codes may have been shared with India in that case.

Nevertheless, France would not give away its encryption keys to anyone, even India. So, it is unlikely that France will allow Meteor to be integrated into Indian UTTAM either
You don't do anything to that aircraft without Russian certification. If you start messing with the code you could mess up something critical.

Meteor is certified for four different aircraft from four different countries, it is not impossible for AMCA to be certified but it would go through a rigorous certification process and enter into several classified agreements.
 

Advaidhya Tiwari

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So you're implying that India violated end-user agreements?

And will do the same with Israeli radar on Tejas in future? And with RBE-2 on Rafale as well (Astra integration on Rafale is very likely).
How is it violation of agreement if India has been allowed to Integrate things on their own?

BS. It's all about individual approvals to nations on country-by-country basis
Yes, mostly NATO countries get these approval. Rest don't get the approval. Si, it is the NATO alliance which gives the privilege of weapons and Technology sharing. What alliance is with India and France?
Even if everything goes to plan realistically without any unforeseen delays, Tejas Mk-2 will come by around 2030. Who is willing to have an additional 2-3 year time on top of that?
It is 2025. AMCA is 2028-30. You are mistaking timelines. Tejas MK2 is like upgrading hornet to super hornet and will be done fast
Mk-2 in its presently-defined configuration will understandably adopt the F414EPE (Enhanced Performance Engine) variant which provides sufficient thrust. It is only logical option.

It's just common sense that they will adopt EPE.
There is no EPE engine. So, you are talking of imaginary engines which is out of Indian control to develop. So, meaningless to talk of EPE.
You don't do anything to that aircraft without Russian certification. If you start messing with the code you could mess up something critical.

Meteor is certified for four different aircraft from four different countries, it is not impossible for AMCA to be certified but it would go through a rigorous certification process and enter into several classified agreements.
We can make our own changes in the aircraft. I don't think India will agree with sharing every single technology and code with Russia.

Captor is not a US radar. As Gripen radar.
All NATO countries only. India is not an ally of France in any manner.
Mirage 2000 has a 17T MTOW, and a 65/95Kn engine. It works well.
Mirage had dry thrust of 65kN. This dry thrust matters the most. F414 has only 59kN thrust which is too less. We need 70kN dry thrust. Wet thrust is important for take-off, especially from carriers. Since Tejas MK2 intends to take off from carrier too, it needs wet thrust of 110kN.

Wet thrust reduction only means take off distance will increase.
 

Sanglamorre

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A bit off topic:

So, the recent move to try term India an ally of NATO is potentially the workaround that was devised to give India NATO-like sharing of tech ?
 

Gessler

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How is it violation of agreement if India has been allowed to Integrate things on their own?
If that is so, then what can't we integrate Derby? or Meteor?

If what you say is true (which it isn't), the seller country (in this case France) does not have to share the codes with anyone except India - which it is already selling the missile to?

Yes, mostly NATO countries get these approval. Rest don't get the approval.
Since when Sweden and Israel became NATO countries?

Si, it is the NATO alliance which gives the privilege of weapons and Technology sharing. What alliance is with India and France?
FYI, there is a strategic partnership here.

It is 2025. AMCA is 2028-30. You are mistaking timelines. Tejas MK2 is like upgrading hornet to super hornet and will be done fast
Yea, right. What would take SAAB 13 years (prototype to FOC) will be done by HAL/ADA in 6 years (less than half-time). :pound: When and how our DPSUs suddenly became so efficient and capable?

And mind you, difference between Mk-1A and Mk-2 is much greater than difference between Gripen C and E.

There is no EPE engine. So, you are talking of imaginary engines which is out of Indian control to develop. So, meaningless to talk of EPE.
EPE is more real than 110kN Kaveri.

EPE is improved version of existing, proven F414. Meanwhile, the 95kN Kaveri is not even a reality and you're dreaming on 110kN one. :rofl:
 

Armand2REP

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We can make our own changes in the aircraft. I don't think India will agree with sharing every single technology and code with Russia.
You don't really have a choice, if you want to make a change, Russian engineers are going over the code.
 

Advaidhya Tiwari

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If what you say is true (which it isn't), the seller country (in this case France) does not have to share the codes with anyone except India - which it is already selling the missile to?
None gives codes for Integration. Israel integrates derby by sending Israel engineers. Similarly, France integrates Meteor into Rafake & M2K by sending its engineers. India only uses the items but otherwise has no idea of its working. It is just like you using a laptop bit don't have the codes of its BIOS, WINDOWS or any other important things
Since when Sweden and Israel became NATO countries
Western countries in general are christian allies. Countries like Turkey don't get these privilege despite being in NATO due to it not being christian.
And mind you, difference between Mk-1A and Mk-2 is much greater than difference between Gripen C and E
SAAB did not write its own FBW in Gripen C. It hired some other country engineer to do it. SAAB is not better than DRDO. DRDO is better than SAAB. Sweden hardly has any Technology and moat of it is imported. The Gripen radar, jet engine, air defence are all imports.
EPE is improved version of existing, proven F414. Meanwhile, the 95kN Kaveri is not even a reality and you're dreaming on 110kN one. :rofl:
You can't modify an existing engine to become 15% more powerful. The engines are highly precision manufactured and there is no room for any changes. An engine has to be developed from beginning.

Just like F414 was based on F404 but still had to be designed from basic stages except for some universal items like FADEC and few parts.

Similarly, EPE from F414 has to be developed just like F414 was developed from F404. This is no simple job. USA has no plane which needs EPE engine and hence there is hardly any reason why USA will make it. No country develops an engine to be used by some other country. Expect USA to develop another new engine just for use by India is an extremely insane idea.
 

Gessler

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None gives codes for Integration. Israel integrates derby by sending Israel engineers. Similarly, France integrates Meteor into Rafake & M2K by sending its engineers. India only uses the items but otherwise has no idea of its working. It is just like you using a laptop bit don't have the codes of its BIOS, WINDOWS or any other important things
And Russians give away codes or don't care if anyone re-writes them because they are stupid?

Western countries in general are christian allies. Countries like Turkey don't get these privilege despite being in NATO due to it not being christian.
With each post your arguments get stupider and stupider. First it was about NATO. Then West. Now Christianity. What next? White countries? Countries that have X colors on their flag? Or countries authorized by the Illuminati?

Neither Israel is Christian nor is Japan. Yet Israelis can integrated Derby on American radar and JASDF are allowed to integrate AMRAAM on Japanese radar.

It is about whether a country has the requisite contracts and agreements in place that govern and oversee the rules regarding usage of said equipment (like COMCASA/CISMOA), and whether the US govt thinks these agreements will/can be upheld or not.

That's why Turkey is allowed to integrate SOM-J on their planned F-35 fleet prior to recent bout of diplomatic issues (though it isn't slaved to radar, codes to allow for FCS integration and weapons-release is still required).

SAAB did not write its own FBW in Gripen C. It hired some other country engineer to do it. SAAB is not better than DRDO. DRDO is better than SAAB. Sweden hardly has any Technology and moat of it is imported. The Gripen radar, jet engine, air defence are all imports.
And all Tejas stuff is indigenous?

Stop ridiculing yourself. SAAB built many well-performing jets like Draken & Viggen before the Gripen and even if you think otherwise, no can deny that Gripen program has been far more successful than Tejas can be in next 20 years even.

Better if labs like DRDO (and people like yourself) do little bit of introspection instead of just mindless jingoism.

You can't modify an existing engine to become 15% more powerful. The engines are highly precision manufactured and there is no room for any changes. An engine has to be developed from beginning.
Increase of thrust is always feasible as long as more efficient, refined materials are applied. All engines have headroom for improvement but it requires continuous R&D to fully exploit and implement those improvements.

GE Aviation does not need you to educate them about what's possible and what's not. Who do you think you are? What are your qualifications in field of aero engines or aeronautical engineering?

Similarly, EPE from F414 has to be developed just like F414 was developed from F404. This is no simple job. USA has no plane which needs EPE engine and hence there is hardly any reason why USA will make it. No country develops an engine to be used by some other country. Expect USA to develop another new engine just for use by India is an extremely insane idea.
Firstly, the EPE is already earmarked for F/A-18 Advanced Super Hornet that is being marketed by Boeing across world.

Secondly, the engine is not developed by US government but by GE Aviation - it's a private company with private funds (EPE is not a program-sanctioned project) and they develop things for where they think there is a market to be catered to.

GE is not like DRDO/GTRE that solely works on Armed Forces ASQR for 99% of time.
 

Armand2REP

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Secondly, the engine is not developed by US government but by GE Aviation - it's a private company with private funds (EPE is not a program-sanctioned project) and they develop things for where they think there is a market to be catered to.
They get government funding, fleet sustainment is always funded. The whole programme is a government contract.
 

BON PLAN

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All NATO countries only. India is not an ally of France in any manner.
India is not part of NATO, but is an ally.
A proof : we gave you access to our naval bases. And it is rumored that under the Rafale GtoG agreement, there was some other point like nuclear simulator access and some tactical missile technologies. You only gave that to an ally. (Ally to counter the chinese power in the indian ocean)
 
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BON PLAN

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Mirage had dry thrust of 65kN. This dry thrust matters the most. F414 has only 59kN thrust which is too less. We need 70kN dry thrust. Wet thrust is important for take-off, especially from carriers. Since Tejas MK2 intends to take off from carrier too, it needs wet thrust of 110kN.
First gen Mirage 2000 used a 59/88 Kn engine (M53-5). It was all but a lazy aircraft.

A closed cannard delta (Mirage 2000 is not) has better take off speed and landing speed than a pure delta....
 

AUSTERLITZ

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Main thing to worry about rafale -

1.Can it detect J-20 aircraft and counter it with meteor and spectra?
2.How well is it going to be in surgical strikes in defended airspace like pakistan?

IAF should do an internal assesment on these 2 critical questions and if answer is yes,stop wasting everybody's time and order another 72 rafale in straight govt deal to add to existing 36 and scrap 110 fighter deal.

Make up the other 2 squadrons by 21 unfinished mig-29upg from russia and another 18 su-30mki.

Last thing we should do is add another new fighter type.Bad idea.

IAF should only have 3 main types of jets.

Heavy 2 engine air dominance focused mmrca - Su-30mki then FGFA
M-MRCA 2 engine - Rafale - AMCA(Post 2030 to replace mirages,mig-29k,jaguar)
Light to medium 1 engine cheaper fighter for defence and numbers - Mig-21(retire) -LCA tejas mk1 -Tejas MWF(post 2025)
 

Advaidhya Tiwari

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With each post your arguments get stupider and stupider. First it was about NATO. Then West. Now Christianity. What next? White countries? Countries that have X colors on their flag? Or countries authorized by the Illuminati?

Neither Israel is Christian nor is Japan. Yet Israelis can integrated Derby on American radar and JASDF are allowed to integrate AMRAAM on Japanese radar.

It is about whether a country has the requisite contracts and agreements in place that govern and oversee the rules regarding usage of said equipment (like COMCASA/CISMOA), and whether the US govt thinks these agreements will/can be upheld or not.

That's why Turkey is allowed to integrate SOM-J on their planned F-35 fleet prior to recent bout of diplomatic issues (though it isn't slaved to radar, codes to allow for FCS integration and weapons-release is still required).
You get retarded everytime you are proven wrong and then go on technicality. Israel is jewish. Christianity is also derivative of judaism. Jews follow 1st testament & christian follow both 1st & 2nd testament.

Japan, S.Korea, Taiwan are not independent countries but are vassal state of USA. Their military & foreign policy are dictated by USA.

None else are given access.
And all Tejas stuff is indigenous?

Stop ridiculing yourself. SAAB built many well-performing jets like Draken & Viggen before the Gripen and even if you think otherwise, no can deny that Gripen program has been far more successful than Tejas can be in next 20 years even.
Stop being ridiculous. Sweden is inferior to india in all major equipment Technology.
Increase of thrust is always feasible as long as more efficient, refined materials are applied. All engines have headroom for improvement but it requires continuous R&D to fully exploit and implement those improvements.
Increase of thrust is impossible without changing design. Several things like resonance frequency, noise, acoustic, airflow inlet size etc will prevent upgradation of an existing engine to higher thrust
GE Aviation does not need you to educate them about what's possible and what's not. Who do you think you are? What are your qualifications in field of aero engines or aeronautical engineering?
These kind of cheap arguments take you nowhere. That is why i said talk after epe project makes any meaningful progress. Don't irritate me by asking who i am
Secondly, the engine is not developed by US government but by GE Aviation - it's a private company with private funds (EPE is not a program-sanctioned project) and they develop things for where they think there is a market to be catered to.
GE can't give away Technology to snyone else for money. All ip is owned by USG & USG approval is compulsory. GE is only quasi private and that is to pretend 'capitalism'.
 

Gessler

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You get retarded everytime you are proven wrong and then go on technicality. Israel is jewish. Christianity is also derivative of judaism. Jews follow 1st testament & christian follow both 1st & 2nd testament.
And Islam is not derivative of the same? All 3 are of same Abrahamic faith.

So you think Americans will give access to Russians because Russia is also a Christian country now? :rofl:

Japan, S.Korea, Taiwan are not independent countries but are vassal state of USA. Their military & foreign policy are dictated by USA.
So you admit it's about political alignment and not religious alignment. You just contradicted your own argument.

None else are given access.
...except Turkey who was somehow able to integrate SOM-J on F-35. Please explain that to me.



Stop being ridiculous. Sweden is inferior to india in all major equipment Technology.
That's why they manage to make ~250 Gripens and sold to 6 countries while we struggling to sell to our own Air Force?

Come down to Earth please.

Increase of thrust is impossible without changing design.
Who said there is no redesign?

The core, fan & compressor stages on the EPE are of improved design.

These kind of cheap arguments take you nowhere. That is why i said talk after epe project makes any meaningful progress. Don't irritate me by asking who i am
Why don't you close your mouth and talk after Tejas Mk-2 makes some meaningful progress instead of telling everyone we don't need to buy Rafale anymore because the guys at ADA made a computer-generated image they displayed at an Air Show?

Here is a computer-generated image of F414 EPE:



So now my argument is just as solid as your argument, if not more.

See how stupid you are?

GE can't give away Technology to snyone else for money.
Yes they can - however they face repercussions if such transfer is not approved prior by USG. That's how Pratt & Whitney (owned by parent company United Technologies) sold software & tools to China despite ban:

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2012/07/how-us-software-ended-up-in-chinese-assault-helicopters/

All ip is owned by USG
IP is held by company, not government.
 

Tang

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You don't do anything to that aircraft without Russian certification. If you start messing with the code you could mess up something critical.

Meteor is certified for four different aircraft from four different countries, it is not impossible for AMCA to be certified but it would go through a rigorous certification process and enter into several classified agreements.
Then what happened in case of Brahmos on Su30,

We got no help from russian.
Dude we have full rights on Su30 like we have on bmp2
 

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