Know Your 'Rafale'

[Armand2REP]

Elta2052 is scalable radar family. It can be even used for su30mkis. Reason why we are 300 tr radar in jaguars is restriction of sale on israeI to indIa for more powerful variant.

Uttam radars is also a family of radar but is under test phase. It will take at least 5-7 years for maturity and by then GaN modules will be incorporated. That radar will go into Amca and MWF... Mk1A will get elta2052 which is as good as rbe2 radar but with lower range with 500to700 TR module depending upon clearence from uncle...

Scalable is a relative term, the bigger you make it the more power it consumes and the more heat it generates. This has to be handled by different levels of subsystems that aren't scalable. The reason no one is buying the 1500 T/R version is because it doesn't exist except on paper.

UTTAM first generation is having gallium arsenide modules but it doesn't matter as 2052 is also GaAs. Instead of waiting on GaN they should put Uttam into full production GaAs modules and outfit all Mk1As. The SAR mapping is just a software issue and can be updated later. At 700 T/R modules it is far superior to the Israelis.

 

[BON PLAN]

I can't repeat the same again and again. We have made Al31F and also Kaveri. The problem with Kaveri is that initial idea of 78kN engine was the problem. Initially tejas was expected to have empty weight of 5.5 ton and MToW of 13 tons but due to changes in Tejas, the Kaveri is now useless even if it is ready as it becomes too underpowered

All is false.

 

[BON PLAN]

The RBE has some ~700-1000 T/R because it is specifically designed for Rafale nose.

Real data is secret.
The prototyp, using bigger and less efficient US modules, used 880 T/R if I remember well.
The actual data is "nearly 1000 T/R"

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

The number of T/R modules on most radars is always a highly classified figure

No, rough TR module number is openly told. The exact may not be told but it is not full secret. Also, when exported, 3rd parties can count it themselves.

A senior HAL official told Livefist, “The LCA program has come up on Israeli-origin sensors. The EL/M-2052 radar was chosen in a competitive process. The same radar is also now on the new build Jaguar jets. The Indian Air Force has been well aware of the process of selection. At no point has there been any hurdle in the selection

The selection of 2052 radar is public information, that is the reason why there was all that commotion in recent times regarding Meteor not being able to integrate with Tejas. Not my problem if you choose to ignore it and live in your own world

This is just like the SPIKE ATGM was selected. It doesn't matter as the RFI is only provisional. It is a backup in case DRDO fails

Or you think that suddenly, LRDE somehow became more proficient and capable than Tikhomirov/Phazotron in developing fighter planes' fire control radars?

What radar does Su35 or Su57 use? Yeah! AESA radar. Also,how much time it took for France to develop AESA? Same time will be taken for India to develop AESA too.

Uttam radars is also a family of radar but is under test phase. It will take at least 5-7 years for maturity and by then GaN modules will be incorporated.

Why not 1000 years? How does it make sense to say 5-7 years of test? Development of radar itself takes that much time. Also, the radar has undergone significant lab tests and tests in business flight. Only last stage of development trial and user trial is remaining. Why will it take 5 years? Which radar took that much time ever which you are using as benchmark?

We assemble AL31 engines. Not all parts are made in India. It's like Maruti assemling engine. Crankcase and head is made by Maruti but Pistons, crank made by mahle and bharat forge. We make engine casing and other cold parts but hot parts come from Saturn and Even thrust vectoring nozzles too come from saturn. That's the reason we have tied up with klimov for TOT for thrust vectoring nozzles.

Enough of this nonsense. I have given sufficient proof to say Al31F is made in India.

And supposedly Even if we make AL31 in house we can't use it in any future fighter planes. Why? It's a 3rd gen engine and can't be used in 5th gen fighters otherwise it will simply negate the idea of 5th gen fighter. Just look at J-20 a stealth design fighter with 3rd gen engine with loàds of infra red signature lighting up the ass inviting IR Air to Air missiles to f*ck it up royall

I agree that Al31F is older generation. But F404 and F110 (F15 engine) are also of same generation as Al31F. So,it is acceptable.

there's more to jet engine single crystal blades than rhenium alone

No, the most important differentiator is rhenium

World has moved to ceramic coated blades

Al31F also has ceramic coating. These things are all common. There is a difference between ceramic coating and ceramic blade. World doesn't have a single ceramic blade till date

 

[Armand2REP]

Real data is secret.
The prototyp, using bigger and less efficient US modules, used 880 T/R if I remember well.
The actual data is "nearly 1000 T/R"

Actually... "The AESA radar array will be made up of more than 1,000 transmitter/receiver modules"

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/dae/sponsors/sponsor_rafale/img/fox3_11.pdf

 

[BON PLAN]

Actually... "The AESA radar array will be made up of more than 1,000 transmitter/receiver modules"

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/dae/sponsors/sponsor_rafale/img/fox3_11.pdf

OK.
Nearly don't mean just under.... 1020 or 995 is nearly 1000.....

 

[Gessler]

No, rough TR module number is openly told.

Show me where in Elta or Thales product brochure it tells the rough number of TRMs.

Also, when exported, 3rd parties can count it themselves.

And IAF considered it enough.

This is just like the SPIKE ATGM was selected. It doesn't matter as the RFI is only provisional. It is a backup in case DRDO fails

The deal is already signed as reported in Janes.

You don't buy 83 sets of radars as backup. That is ridiculous wastage of expenditure that no Air Force will authorize.

What radar does Su35 or Su57 use? Yeah! AESA radar.

Su-35 uses AESA radar? You just can't stop being a joker, can you?

Su-57's Byelka radar complex is still not in series production, and neither is the plane. As I already stated.

Also,how much time it took for France to develop AESA?

French development time cycle was cut short because they didn't have to develop an electronically-steered/scanned radar from scratch. The initial RBE-2 itself was a PESA (Passive Electronically Scanned Array)- in the RBE-2AA version they just changed the antenna array to an AESA and developed incrimental improvements to rest of the back-end stuff.

Unlike Russians ofcourse, the French had sufficient funds to pull it off on time.

Without a PESA radar to go from, look how much time it's taking Eurofighter consortium to develop CAESAR/Captor-E, despite having equal if not greater funds than France.

Same time will be taken for India to develop AESA too.

No it won't because India is not developing an AESA version of an existing PESA radar. Heck, even the slotted-array MMR we have right now is developed with Israeli help.

We have to develop AESA from scratch. It's gonna take long time for testing.

I agree that Al31F is older generation. But F404 and F110 (F15 engine) are also of same generation as Al31F. So,it is acceptable.

You are comparing an engine with TBO of 2,000 hours (AL-31F) with an engine with TBO of 6,000 hours (F404).

MiG-29's RD-93/33 series have TBO of 700-1,000 hours. That tells you quality of Russian engines, and how maintenance-intensive they are. Similar reasons are why Russian products always lose out to Western counterparts in terms of Life-Cycle Costs.

 

[Gessler]

Actually... "The AESA radar array will be made up of more than 1,000 transmitter/receiver modules"

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/dae/sponsors/sponsor_rafale/img/fox3_11.pdf

T/R module count is not a fixed number for a radar. The technology is always evolving and as long as a production-spec is not finalized, there is always room for improvement. The numbers quoted for X radar in development 10 years ago are no longer relevant today. Newer production iterations of the same radar will have greater amount of TRMs - ofcourse that has to go hand in hand with development of back-end processing capabilities.

Take the Phazotron AESA prototypes for example. The Zhuk-AE originally had 680 T/R reportedly (one of the few radars at the time that revealed numbers), but the new FGA-35 which fits into the same MiG-35 nose cone has upto 1,016 TRMs. Nearly doubled in same form factor of radar.

 

[Armand2REP]

OK.
Nearly don't mean just under.... 1020 or 995 is nearly 1000.....

You were looking for something official, FOX 3 is official.

 

[BON PLAN]

French development time cycle was cut short because they didn't have to develop an electronically-steered/scanned radar from scratch. The initial RBE-2 itself was a PESA (Passive Electronically Scanned Array)- in the RBE-2AA version they just changed the antenna array to an AESA and developed incrimental improvements to rest of the back-end stuff.

Unlike Russians ofcourse, the French had sufficient funds to pull it off on time.

Without a PESA radar to go from, look how much time it's taking Eurofighter consortium to develop CAESAR/Captor-E, despite having equal if not greater funds than France.

Indeed.
From the beginning the RBE2 was studied to reveive 2 differents kinds of antenna : PESA and then AESA.
That means that all the softwares studied and raffined during the PESA area are fully used in the AESA (the contrary is not always possible). It is a 10 years improvement phase (fine tuning of the modes, library of threats...) that is used immediatly in the AESA radar. The AESA Rafale radar was mature from day one.

So the AESA RBE2, in production for 6+ years, use a 15+ years feed back ! and at that time, nor the Gripen nor the EF has an AESA operationnal....
I think in Europe Thales is 10 to 15 years ahead in that field.

 

[BON PLAN]

Thales on AESA ship based radar....

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-new...-first-seafire-radar-array-ahead-of-schedule/

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

And IAF considered it enough.

It is not upto IAF to decide. IAF doesn't necessarily choose the best always. Example - augusta westland helicopters. It is a strategic decision based on Ijdian long term requirement

The deal is already signed as reported in Janes.

You don't buy 83 sets of radars as backup. That is ridiculous wastage of expenditure that no Air Force will authorize

The deal is as much signed as Spike ATGM. We have only issued RFP qnd selected L1. Signing deals ia a long path. It will take much more negotiations for deal to be signed. You are being ridiculous if you think deals are signed so quickly after RFP.

Su-35 uses AESA radar? You just can't stop being a joker, can you?

Ok, my bad.

French development time cycle was cut short because they didn't have to develop an electronically-steered/scanned radar from scratch. The initial RBE-2 itself was a PESA (Passive Electronically Scanned Array)- in the RBE-2AA version they just changed the antenna array to an AESA and developed incrimental improvements to rest of the back-end stuff.

The Su30 PESA radar processing is made in India. India has developed its own processor for it and integrated with Russian antennae in 2002-3 itself

No it won't because India is not developing an AESA version of an existing PESA radar. Heck, even the slotted-array MMR we have right now is developed with Israeli help

Our slotted MMR in Tejas is not Indian. It is fully Israeli and only temporary measure. India already has Su30 radar processor. So, it is not development from scratch

You are comparing an engine with TBO of 2,000 hours (AL-31F) with an engine with TBO of 6,000 hour

F414 has TBO of 4000 hours. F404 has TBO of 2000-3000 hours. Al31F is comparable to F404, F110 etc and these things still fly well.

 

[Gessler]

It is not upto IAF to decide. IAF doesn't necessarily choose the best always. Example - augusta westland helicopters. It is a strategic decision based on Ijdian long term requirement

It is IAF that sets the requirement. And only those competitors that meet the technical requirements are allowed to start commercial bids.

The Su30 PESA radar processing is made in India. India has developed its own processor for it and integrated with Russian antennae in 2002-3 itself

Our slotted MMR in Tejas is not Indian. It is fully Israeli and only temporary measure. India already has Su30 radar processor. So, it is not development from scratch

Really? Because we hold the license to make stuff for a Russian PESA radar, that means we have fully acquired the know-how for making such radars? Is this the same kind of wisdom of your's which implies that just because we hold the screwdrivergiri needed to make AL-31F, means we know everything about it as though we hold the IPR?

Then please explain to me how despite being capable of producing a huge 123kN engine like AL-31FP, we still are unable to build a 85kN Kaveri and have to ask SAFRAN for help?

Going by your logic (or lack of it), just because we made a 123kN engine locally, by now we should be capable of making 110-120kN engine for Mk-2 MWF locally also, right? Then why are planning on import of F414?

F414 has TBO of 4000 hours. F404 has TBO of 2000-3000 hours.

You are quoting figures from the 1980s, from back when these engines did not even have FADEC.

Modern examples derive 6,000-hours.

"The new compressor will improve airflow and efficiency, while increasing time between overhauls from 4,000 to 6,000 hours."

https://www.geaviation.com/press-re...nt-path-enhanced-f414-engine-while-f404-being

^^ That is from 2001. The F404 also underwent similar upgrade.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

Really? Because we hold the license to make stuff for a Russian PESA radar, that means we have fully acquired the know-how for making such radars? Is this the same kind of wisdom of your's which implies that just because we hold the screwdrivergiri needed to make AL-31F, means we know everything about it as though we hold the IPR?

Again you are inventing your own stuff. India did not get codes from Russia but had to write the codes itself. Russia doesn't give codes to anything as these softwares can be hacked. So, India had to write its own codes.

In case of Su30 radar, we have written the codes which is the major part of the radar. In fact 80% work is in writing codes. So, India does have this experience

Going by your logic (or lack of it), just because we made a 123kN engine locally, by now we should be capable of making 110-120kN engine for Mk-2 MWF locally also, right? Then why are planning on import of F414?

Again, you are putting words in my mouth.

I never said that India has 110kN engines. But, yes, India has the capability to develop one now. It ia not from Al31F but due to years of research on materials and Kaveri engine development. F414 is only for trials. MWF & AMCA will have only 110kN engines once in serial production. Since engine development takes time, we need F414 as temporary substitute. If you are thinking that the final engine of MWF is F414, then you are a fool.

It is IAF that sets the requirement. And only those competitors that meet the technical requirements are allowed to start commercial bids.



Really? Because we hold the license to make stuff for a Russian PESA radar, that means we have fully acquired the know-how for making such radars? Is this the same kind of wisdom of your's which implies that just because we hold the screwdrivergiri needed to make AL-31F, means we know everything about it as though we hold the IPR?

Then please explain to me how despite being capable of producing a huge 123kN engine like AL-31FP, we still are unable to build a 85kN Kaveri and have to ask SAFRAN for help?

Going by your logic (or lack of it), just because we made a 123kN engine locally, by now we should be capable of making 110-120kN engine for Mk-2 MWF locally also, right? Then why are planning on import of F414?



You are quoting figures from the 1980s, from back when these engines did not even have FADEC.

Modern examples derive 6,000-hours.

"The new compressor will improve airflow and efficiency, while increasing time between overhauls from 4,000 to 6,000 hours."

https://www.geaviation.com/press-re...nt-path-enhanced-f414-engine-while-f404-being

^^ That is from 2001. The F404 also underwent similar upgrade.

There is a difference between Russian and American method of engine repair,overhaul and replace. So, just quoting TBO without understanding difference is meaningless. Russian Technology is not inferior. It serves the purpose it is intended to serve.

 

[Gessler]

Again you are inventing your own stuff. India did not get codes from Russia but had to write the codes itself. Russia doesn't give codes to anything as these softwares can be hacked. So, India had to write its own codes.

In case of Su30 radar, we have written the codes which is the major part of the radar. In fact 80% work is in writing codes. So, India does have this experience

You have no clue what you're talking about.

If all the BARS radar is Indian made and the codes are Indian-written, then why can't we integrate Meteor with it? FYI, MBDA is reluctant to integrate with a Russian radar....a Russian radar which you say is actually Indian.

Again, you are putting words in my mouth.

I never said that India has 110kN engines. But, yes, India has the capability to develop one now. It ia not from Al31F but due to years of research on materials and Kaveri engine development. F414 is only for trials. MWF & AMCA will have only 110kN engines once in serial production. Since engine development takes time, we need F414 as temporary substitute. If you are thinking that the final engine of MWF is F414, then you are a fool.

Yeah, dream on.

I have also seen dreamers who said F404 was not final engine for Mk-1...and then said it was not final engine for Mk-1A. Now you say F414 won't be final engine for Mk-2.

Go on and make a fool of yourself, I'm not stopping you.

There is a difference between Russian and American method of engine repair,overhaul and replace. So, just quoting TBO without understanding difference is meaningless. Russian Technology is not inferior. It serves the purpose it is intended to serve.

If I make a car who's "intended purpose" is to break down after every 2,000 kms, does that mean it is not inferior to a car that only breaks down once 6,000 kms?



Just say that the "intended purpose" of the N1 rocket was to fall down and explode without putting anything into LTO....and then say it is not inferior to Saturn 5, because it performs its intended purpose.

Joker.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

If all the BARS radar is Indian made and the codes are Indian-written, then why can't we integrate Meteor with it? FYI, MBDA is reluctant to integrate with a Russian radar....a Russian radar which you say is actually Indian.

France is simply unwilling to integrate meteor into indian systems. But the bars Radar has Indian processor and algorithm. Allowing integration of meteor will involve sharing codes with india & Russia. Hence France will never allow it. Even UTTAM radar will not be given meteor. There is nothing special about Russia as France is unwilling to allow meteor on Tejas israeli radar too despite Israel being an ally

I have also seen dreamers who said F404 was not final engine for Mk-1...and then said it was not final engine for Mk-1A. Now you say F414 won't be final engine for Mk-2

You appear to be out of your mind. Tejas mk1 & mk1a is a dead end and only temporary measure. So, there is nothing final about them. Obviously India doesn't want to water efforts for just 123 planes. Have common sense before talking.

 

[Gessler]

France is simply unwilling to integrate meteor into indian systems. But the bars Radar has Indian processor and algorithm. Allowing integration of meteor will involve sharing codes with india & Russia. Hence France will never allow it. Even UTTAM radar will not be given meteor. There is nothing special about Russia as France is unwilling to allow meteor on Tejas israeli radar too despite Israel being an ally

It's not about being an ally or not - it's about sharing integration source codes with a THIRD PARTY country which is otherwise not already part of a military alliance like NATO (wherein such codes are already shared).

i.e. a country that is not paying to have the weapon integrated. What this will do is that if MBDA were to allow integration of Meteor on ELM-2052/BARS, it means that they, at zero cost, gave away integration codes of their missiles to a third party country (Israel/Russia).

Now this third country will be able to perform said integrations on any aircraft that has their radar in the future - without need for French approval or consent. That is the issue.

Now, if the source codes on the BARS radar are totally Indian-created as you say, that means MBDA won't have to share anything with Russians would it? They only need to share with the Indian side: which is the customer.

Do you see the logical fallacy in your stupid argument yet?

You appear to be out of your mind. Tejas mk1 & mk1a is a dead end and only temporary measure. So, there is nothing final about them.

Lol - so you think changing engines on a plane is like hot-swapping MDPUs or something?

Integration & certification of a new engine takes YEARS of flight & ground testing. Mk-1, Mk-1A will have F404 till the point they are retired. And Mk-2 will have F414 till the end of it's life.

Now I'll leave you to dream.

 

[Steven Rogers]

France is simply unwilling to integrate meteor into indian systems. But the bars Radar has Indian processor and algorithm. Allowing integration of meteor will involve sharing codes with india & Russia. Hence France will never allow it. Even UTTAM radar will not be given meteor. There is nothing special about Russia as France is unwilling to allow meteor on Tejas israeli radar too despite Israel being an ally

You appear to be out of your mind. Tejas mk1 & mk1a is a dead end and only temporary measure. So, there is nothing final about them. Obviously India doesn't want to water efforts for just 123 planes. Have common sense before talking.

No algorithms are indian ,only processors are under project Vetrival.

 

[Armand2REP]

Again you are inventing your own stuff. India did not get codes from Russia but had to write the codes itself. Russia doesn't give codes to anything as these softwares can be hacked. So, India had to write its own codes.

Writing your own codes? The source code is Russian, any changes to it has to be certified by their engineers so it doesn't conflict with anything else. If you alter it on your own you will be voiding any warranty.

France is simply unwilling to integrate meteor into indian systems. But the bars Radar has Indian processor and algorithm. Allowing integration of meteor will involve sharing codes with india & Russia. Hence France will never allow it. Even UTTAM radar will not be given meteor. There is nothing special about Russia as France is unwilling to allow meteor on Tejas israeli radar too despite Israel being an ally

It isn't a problem of India, it is the problem of Russia. If they ever got their hands on the encryption they could hack and jam our missiles. Integrating Meteor on a baby Israeli radar only meant for guiding Derby is a waste of money.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

Now, if the source codes on the BARS radar are totally Indian-created as you say, that means MBDA won't have to share anything with Russians would it? They only need to share with the Indian side: which is the customer.

Do you see the logical fallacy in your stupid argument yet?

Do you see any logic in your retarded argument?

Why would France give their code to India when India is also a third party? Why would France allow India to get into their radar and softwares and permanently compromise French systems for a one time payment?

.e. a country that is not paying to have the weapon integrated. What this will do is that if MBDA were to allow integration of Meteor on ELM-2052/BARS, it means that they, at zero cost, gave away integration codes of their missiles to a third party country (Israel/Russia)

Who made these up? Are you saying that if India agrees to pay the cost of integration with Israeli radar, France will allow? Obviously, Israel will have to allow that too and India can get Israel to agree with it. How does it matter if France ia giving the integration codes to Israel or India as long as they are getting paid?

The integration codes are kept secret because that can also compromise algorithm and communication channels. So, if the codes are given to India, then too the radar will be compromised. So, such codes are never given to anyone else.

Don't give fake argument that it is merely because if payment issue.

Integration & certification of a new engine takes YEARS of flight & ground testing. Mk-1, Mk-1A will have F404 till the point they are retired. And Mk-2 will have F414 till the end of it's life

Again, a retarded argument. Rafale was initially flown using F404 engine and then switched to M88. F18 was initially with F404 and then switched to F414. So, please keep your foolish argument to yourself.

Your idea is to simply say that anything you don't like will take 'years' to work out without looking at comparison with others.

No algorithms are indian ,only processors are under project Vetrival.

With processor, architecture also becomes Indian. Making processor is not about simple hardware. Algorithm may or may not be Indian initially but it allows for Indian algorithm.