Know Your 'Rafale'

[BON PLAN]

with RCS of 1 m squared you would call Rafale a stealth?

YOU DON'T KNOW. These data was created by anglo/US forumers.

Reality is far, far less.

 

[BON PLAN]

Unless we talk about full AB, generally stealth aircraft hide and cool their nozzle pretty well, and the fact that F-135 is a high bypass engine also means the plume is shorter for the same thrust rating.

From the front left angle :

From the rear right :

from the side :

 

[asianobserve]

BTW Rafale RCS as peddled mostly is from frontal and not all aspect.. So you expect the enemy radars to always try and look from one angle only? => So is F35 my dear

The difference is that F-35 can fight clean while Rafale must hang all its weapons and EFTs under its wings and fuselage. That's a flying Christmas tree my dear!

Further more, you talk of F4??? you are naive... F4 is still a concept,. F4 to be lauched in 2019. Not in 10 years... And Rafale team always deliver on time, on spec, on budget.

So, F4 standard when ever it may be, would be time with 6th Gen will be flying, and you are talking how wonderful 4.5th Gen tech will be? Wonderful. => A 6th gen to be FOC in 2025 ? where? US just to be fortunate if F35 is fully FOC at those time.

The point is Rafale like all 4th or so called 5th gen fighters are totally outclassed by 5th gen fighters.

 

[StealthFlanker]

From the front left angle :

From the rear right :

from the side :

Nice try darling, but as i have taught you before in F-35 thread, It is totally retarded to use a photo of an aircraft in full afterburner to argue that the same aircraft will have big IR signature in cruise condition, it like trying to argue that "because F-35 will be non-VLO with full external load therefore it will be non-VLO with internal load out", get that through you head. Just because you acting stubborn doesn't mean you gonna change reality or you gonna fool anyone here.
This is how F-35 actually look at night without full afterburner.

Before you go full retard and accused me of using photoshop here is the video

Now look at how bright your beloved Rafale from frontal aspect, in broad daylight if it also use afterburner

It is obviously worse if we also use the same lighting standard as in F-35 photos

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

If it's strategic then why not buy France's latest Barracuda class sub or Mistral as these French products are very good against competition.

India has already bought scorpene submarines and intends to continue that with full indigenisation. India is also making its own nuclear submarines and ships that there is no necessity of importing these. However, India lacks robust aerospace industry. India makes Su30 and is developing LCA but the aerospace sector was still 7-8 years away from full competency in 2016

That is absolutely wrong
When looking at radar scattering graph of aircraft, one common mistake is to assume that aircraft will be detected by radar at a significantly longer distance from the side aspects or tail aspects, because radar scattering charts often show much higher radar cross section values for beam aspect and tail aspect compared to the frontal aspect of aircraft.

You are assuming that radar is balloon shaped. Radar can be flat shaped too with multiple receivers to cover all direction. Such round shape radar is placed where space is limited like in ships, AEWACS etc. In ground, there is no need to save space of power. India has plenty of electricity and space and can keep large arrays. Hence such problems will not come

F-35 has different payload other than just 2 JDAM other possible payload such as 8 SDB II or 8 SPEAR + 2 Meteor. Or alternatively you can carry 12 CUDA or SACM-T, another possible choice is AARGM-ER

SDB is a small bomb and is unfit to be used for serious strike roles. I am speaking of big sized precision bombs. F35 can hold only 2 JDAMs. Yes, it can substitute 1 JDAM with 2 meteor. But I am speaking of strike roles like SEAD, not interception.

Unless we talk about full AB, generally stealth aircraft hide and cool their nozzle pretty well, and the fact that F-135 is a high bypass engine also means the plume is shorter for the same thrust rating.

Even without AB, the jet nozzle is a bit too hot. The bypass ratio of F135 engine is just 0.55-0.6 which is similar to F100 or Al31F engines. So, the heat/plume is not significantly less. There is no way any plane can cover its RCS from behind with present technology

 

[asianobserve]

However, India lacks robust aerospace industry. India makes Su30 and is developing LCA but the aerospace sector was still 7-8 years away from full competency

France will not transfer Rafale sensitive tech to help Indian aerospace industry. What you can ecpect is licensing agreements, parts factory, or lip service tech development assistance. So there's no difference to what India can get for F-16V. In fact the whole F-16 production will be transfetred to India.

 

[StealthFlanker]

You are assuming that radar is balloon shaped. Radar can be flat shaped too with multiple receivers to cover all direction. Such round shape radar is placed where space is limited like in ships, AEWACS etc. In ground, there is no need to save space of power. India has plenty of electricity and space and can keep large arrays. Hence such problems will not come

No iam not assuming anything, you don't seem to understand radar transmission pattern.
Every radars, no matter what shape, always have side lobes, that the nature of electronic emission,you can reduce side lobe level by different radar weighting such as Taylor40 but you can't eliminate the side lobe, no matter how big your radar is, and yes even AESA and PESA have side lobes which interfered with their main lobes

SDB is a small bomb and is unfit to be used for serious strike roles. But I am speaking of strike roles like SEAD

How serious exactly?
You don't need 2000 lbs JDAM for SEAD, because there is not a single TEL/Radar/SAM mobile command post in existence designed to take the explosive force from SDB. Do you know that the warhead of AGM-114 Hellfire missile is only 8-9 kg and it can easily destroy tanks, for comparison the warhead of SDB II is 48 kg

Can you point out what SAM launcher or Radar that can survive this:

Even without AB, the jet nozzle is a bit too hot.

It really isn't, given that it uses plenty of ways to cool down the nozzles, and as i have shown earlier, the nozzle is masked from most angle.

The bypass ratio of F135 engine is just 0.55-0.6 which is similar to F100 or Al31F engines.

High bypass ratio isn't the only thing it got going for, F-135 has many others features to reduces the temperature of the nozzle, such as serrated edge to cut down the plumes length, hollow slot to cool down the nozzle feather and also that ratio is much higher than M88
http://www.f-16.net/f-16_versions_article20.html

There is no way any plane can cover its RCS from behind with present technology

Actually, they do, it called the stealthy augmentors, which appeared on both F-35 and F-22

"...Another key feature of the F135 is its augmentor, or afterburner system. While available details of the augmentor are sketchy, the F135 is known to employ multi-zone (probably three-zone) fuel injection aft of the afterburner’s pilot light. These zones inject fuel independently, so that the afterburner does not act in an all-or-nothing way but instead provides a variable range of additional, smoothly transitioning wet thrust at the pilot’s command. Also, like the F119 augmentor, the F135 augmentor is stealthy: The design of the two engines’ augmentors places multi-zone fuel injection into curved vanes which eliminate conventional spray bars and flame holders and block the line of sight to the turbine when looking into the engine from behind...

http://militaryrussia.ru/forum/download/file.php?id=28256

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

France will not transfer Rafale sensitive tech to help Indian aerospace industry. What you can ecpect is licensing agreements, parts factory, or lip service tech development assistance. So there's no difference to what India can get for F-16V. In fact the whole F-16 production will be transfetred to India.

India did not take any lip service assistance. Also, what technology India took is kept under secrecy clause to avoid leaking sensitive matter. But, I don't think India got useless things of just license. India had made such a ToT deal with Russia to make Su30 in India. So, I would not be surprised if India made such a deal with France to get some really interesting technology or at least some other lesser technology like making of civilian and transport planes. Dassault had also made a statement that India will have to buy quantities of 150 for the higher technology and India rightly made MMRCA requirement of 114 (add 36 rafale already purchased and it is 150). Be assured that India did get something in a major way, maybe similar to Su30 deal

 

[asianobserve]

India did not take any lip service assistance. Also, what technology India took is kept under secrecy clause to avoid leaking sensitive matter. But, I don't think India got useless things of just license. India had made such a ToT deal with Russia to make Su30 in India. So, I would not be surprised if India made such a deal with France to get some really interesting technology or at least some other lesser technology like making of civilian and transport planes. Dassault had also made a statement that India will have to buy quantities of 150 for the higher technology and India rightly made MMRCA requirement of 114 (add 36 rafale already purchased and it is 150). Be assured that India did get something in a major way, maybe similar to Su30 deal

It better be, since Modi government's pants is on fire due to allegations of over pricing...

 

[smestarz]

Well the Magic no of 114 that you are making and adding 36 already rafales make it 150? thats what you are trying to say? Numerology, wonderful
36 is for 2 Squadrons of 18 planes each which is what IAF uses. I do believe you are aware that during MMRCA IAF wanted planes to rein in squadron losses.
If India wanted Rafales they could have gone for follow on order. But they have not.
To make it clear, 36 planes were ordered for immediate requirement for IAF. That is done.
Now GoI wants to go for best possible plane. Now here there are many points. Best plane as in performance, Best plane as in industrial advantage, Best plane as in technology input all these will be added. Further this particular process is not lmited by MEDIUM. Thus its an open brawl.
Rafale does not have price benefit as other contenders have an idea of what Dassault had quoted. Now what NDA govt has claimed that it got special discount of 9% from Dassault, So that would be the price that expected, and now if Dassault prices go higher, they are surely not the top contender to win, But if they quote lower then surely we shall have RaGa parroting lines that " see we were cheated by Modiji, and that we should now get lower price for all the planes including 36" This should be fun.

Eurofighter had issue with spares, but that is due to spares ordering as even Luftwaffe was cutting on costs. but do remember one thing, that Germany was willing to give upto 25% DISCOUNT on its price. As per CNC due to mischief by Dassault in pricing they were declared L1 but then adding the miscelleneous Dassault was not L1 but the price diffrence was not that much, Now considering that Rafale was purchsed at 9% discount, but here Eurofighter can offer upto 25% discount, How would Dassault be able to contend with that?

Russian Su-35 is a wonderful performer, and this being the 4th Gen tech and the Russians planning to move on to 5th Gen, Russians might be the ones who could perhaps willing to share more with India in terms of Tech transfer. Also their planes are known to be cheap. Su-35 has more reliable and economical engine.. Also we have agreement for spares with Russian companies already. That is in a way Beneficial to Su-35

Russians know how important deal this may be and they would leave no stone unturned to get this deal, should be interesting

India did not take any lip service assistance. Also, what technology India took is kept under secrecy clause to avoid leaking sensitive matter. But, I don't think India got useless things of just license. India had made such a ToT deal with Russia to make Su30 in India. So, I would not be surprised if India made such a deal with France to get some really interesting technology or at least some other lesser technology like making of civilian and transport planes. Dassault had also made a statement that India will have to buy quantities of 150 for the higher technology and India rightly made MMRCA requirement of 114 (add 36 rafale already purchased and it is 150). Be assured that India did get something in a major way, maybe similar to Su30 deal

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

Well the Magic no of 114 that you are making and adding 36 already rafales make it 150? thats what you are trying to say? Numerology, wonderful
36 is for 2 Squadrons of 18 planes each which is what IAF uses. I do believe you are aware that during MMRCA IAF wanted planes to rein in squadron losses.
If India wanted Rafales they could have gone for follow on order. But they have not.
To make it clear, 36 planes were ordered for immediate requirement for IAF. That is done.
Now GoI wants to go for best possible plane. Now here there are many points. Best plane as in performance, Best plane as in industrial advantage, Best plane as in technology input all these will be added. Further this particular process is not lmited by MEDIUM. Thus its an open brawl.
Rafale does not have price benefit as other contenders have an idea of what Dassault had quoted. Now what NDA govt has claimed that it got special discount of 9% from Dassault, So that would be the price that expected, and now if Dassault prices go higher, they are surely not the top contender to win, But if they quote lower then surely we shall have RaGa parroting lines that " see we were cheated by Modiji, and that we should now get lower price for all the planes including 36" This should be fun.

Eurofighter had issue with spares, but that is due to spares ordering as even Luftwaffe was cutting on costs. but do remember one thing, that Germany was willing to give upto 25% DISCOUNT on its price. As per CNC due to mischief by Dassault in pricing they were declared L1 but then adding the miscelleneous Dassault was not L1 but the price diffrence was not that much, Now considering that Rafale was purchsed at 9% discount, but here Eurofighter can offer upto 25% discount, How would Dassault be able to contend with that?

Russian Su-35 is a wonderful performer, and this being the 4th Gen tech and the Russians planning to move on to 5th Gen, Russians might be the ones who could perhaps willing to share more with India in terms of Tech transfer. Also their planes are known to be cheap. Su-35 has more reliable and economical engine.. Also we have agreement for spares with Russian companies already. That is in a way Beneficial to Su-35

Russians know how important deal this may be and they would leave no stone unturned to get this deal, should be interesting

India gets ToT for rafale and hence India bought it. I never said Rafale is a onderful plane but just that Rafale gives India strategic gains in terms of important technology which is more important than the planes themselves.

Also, can you explain the number 114? If each squadron has 18 planes, then it should have been 108 or 126. From where did 114 come? Also, who told you that Su30 can't be made in larger numbers to increase the squadron numbers? What is the point of importing Rafale instead of making Su30?

Next, India has put conditions in such a manner that MMRCA-2 will not only include the planes but also significant indigenisation which will entail extra cost. Only Rafale has the advantage as the indigenisation costs have been paid for in the first 36 deal as offsets. So, it is not possible for anyone else to compete with Rafale.

EFT offer of Germany is unfit as Germany does not have the full technology or manufacturing ability for it. UK is the country that can make EFT on its own,not Germany. Germany only makes a small part of the plane. I am wondering how could Germany offer 25% discount when its its share is not even half the value of the plane.

MMRCA2 is nothing but a logical conclusion of Rafale deal. India didn't fully trust France and hence didn't give entire order together. India gave it in a partial manner whereby France would have to deliver on its technology first at an extra payment as offsets. If France keeps their word, next order will be made. It is likely that Indian made rafale will use Kaveri engine with 90kN thrust. That may be the so called India specific modifications other than software in Rafale

India will not buy Su35 as India already has Su30. Also, Russians may not be willing to give Al41F engine which is their most advanced engine as of now. So, buying Su35 may not be worth it when India can make Su30 with its engine in India. India may link a deal with Russia to upgrade Su30 into Super Sukhoi at best rather than go for Su35.

 

[vampyrbladez]

BTW Rafale RCS as peddled mostly is from frontal and not all aspect.. So you expect the enemy radars to always try and look from one angle only?

Further more, you talk of F4??? you are naive... F4 is still a concept,.
F3R is being implemented Indian Rafales are supposed to be of F3R standards.

So, F4 standard when ever it may be, would be time with 6th Gen will be flying, and you are talking how wonderful 4.5th Gen tech will be? Wonderful..

RCS for all is calculated as from all angles is 1 m2 RCS. From frontal aspect it is around 0.75 m2 RCS. F4 is scheduled to be rolled out by 2023. Being a primary partner will get us high on the totem pole for upgrades. With Su 57 MKI coming in 2026 - 27 for IAF, we have plenty of time so relax.

 

[vampyrbladez]

So, without addressing the issues of external weapons and fuel tanks on Rafale, I don't think its practical for the IAf to spend money modifying Rafale's present setup like:

1. changing the current single tail into twin canted tails;
2. adding retractable fuel probe;
3. Installing internally A2G targetting pods; or
4. modifying engine noozles.

What the IAf should be doing is integrating non-french weapons into Rafale specially new stealthy stand-off weapons that can let Rafale hit targets from great distances.

For spotter concept, stealthy UAVs would be better at this job for the IAF, and cheaper. And the it should be focusing more on UAV swarms.

1. That's not going to happen as Rafale is a Delta wing design. Stability and maneuverability will be affected. Also has the SPECTRA EW RWR mounted on it.

2. That is actually on the website of Rafale.

Failure-prone systems have been eliminated early on in the design process:

• there is no airbrake
• the air intakes have no moving parts
• the ac generators do not have any constant speed drive (CSD)
• and the refuelling probe is fixed in order to avoid any deployment or retraction problem.

This results in reduced spares inventory, less man-hours and less ground support equipment.

https://www.dassault-aviation.com/en/defense/rafale/mission-ready-with-low-operating-costs/

An interesting explanation on Quora.

Furthermore, the RAFALE has a short nose (compared to the F16) so the fixed probe is preferred to the retractable one, saving space in the fuselage. And since the deployment/retraction hardware is eliminated, it weighs less, and more importantly, it reduces maintenance requirements.

https://www.quora.com/Why-is-the-re...jet-not-retractable-Does-it-increase-the-drag

3. More info on the F4 standard of Rafale.

In the air/ground domain, the F3-R variant will be cleared to carry the new target designation pod PDL-NG from Thales. Other upgrades include the installation of an upgraded Link 16 terminal, improved – Mod 5 compatible IFF and buddy refueling pods for the French Navy’s Rafale N.

https://defense-update.com/20170323_rafale-f4.html

4. Not going to happen. Curse of the 4.5 generation fighter. However M88-2 7.5 ton to 9 ton upgrade, so compensation prize. :biggrin2:

https://www.latribune.fr/entreprise...de-la-poussee-du-moteur-du-rafale-556605.html

 

[vampyrbladez]

Its wonderful to see Artwork now being peddled as "development" nice

It's a concept development. FB 22 has no revealed prototype so this is the closest you'll get.

 

[BON PLAN]

Nice try darling, but as i have taught you before in F-35 thread, It is totally retarded to use a photo of an aircraft in full afterburner to argue that the same aircraft will have big IR signature in cruise condition, it like trying to argue that "because F-35 will be non-VLO with full external load therefore it will be non-VLO with internal load out", get that through you head. Just because you acting stubborn doesn't mean you gonna change reality or you gonna fool anyone here.
This is how F-35 actually look at night without full afterburner.

Before you go full retard and accused me of using photoshop here is the video

Now look at how bright your beloved Rafale from frontal aspect, in broad daylight if it also use afterburner

It is obviously worse if we also use the same lighting standard as in F-35 photos

Yes my love, but a rafale without AB can easily supercruise (with just 10t of power), when the F35 clean and without load can't (with 12.5T !)
With a load, the F35 will have a bigger drag, so it is even worst.
A Rafale with 2 x 2000L and full AB can reach mach 1.6 (it was tried several years ago, to close the mouth of some saying it is under powered).

A F35 will have to use its AB early in a AtoA combat. This plane is probably perfect to fly straight away.

pic against pic : a heavy rafale flying at night without AB

 

[BON PLAN]

It really isn't, given that it uses plenty of ways to cool down the nozzles,

OK...
It is why the plane need to regularly open its bays to refresh itself.
Maybe the pilot has to make a choice : refresh the exhaust pipe or the weapons bays....

And of course, by magic, these small ventilation holes are perfectly stealth .... Of course, LM promises that! LOL

 

[BON PLAN]

Russian Su-35 is a wonderful performer

As quite ever, the russian plane are very impressive to fly, but less impressive in term of electronic suite.
SU35 don't have an AESA so far.
And Why purchasing SU35 when you have a big fleet of SU30, to be upgraded? It's like to purchase Mirage 2000-9 when you already have -5.

 

[BON PLAN]

RCS for all is calculated as from all angles is 1 m2 RCS. From frontal aspect it is around 0.75 m2 RCS. F4 is scheduled to be rolled out by 2023. Being a primary partner will get us high on the totem pole for upgrades. With Su 57 MKI coming in 2026 - 27 for IAF, we have plenty of time so relax.

ABSOLUTELY NOT.
Mirage 2000 RCS was in the 1 m² area, and Rafale was, according to Dassault engineers, at least 20 more stealthy than M2000.

 

[StealthFlanker]

Yes my love, but a rafale without AB can easily supercruise (with just 10t of power), when the F35 clean and without load can't (with 12.5T !)

Once again, just because you repeat the same nonsense many times, doesn't make it become reality, nor it will make anyone trust your word.
As i have taught you many times, engine thrust is a dynamic value which change significantly with speed and altitude. A high thrust engine which cannot make an airplane supercruise simply mean that it's high speed dynamic thrust is low, high speed dynamic thrust is decided by the inlet design (pressure recovery) and engine design such as bypass ratio.

With a load, the F35 will have a bigger drag, so it is even worst.

All aircraft are more draggy when they carry heavy load, the smaller one will get affected more, simply because the drag of weapons will be more significant relative to them. For example, 6 MK-82 will affect F-16 far more than it will affect F-15.

A Rafale with 2 x 2000L and full AB can reach mach 1.6 (it was tried several years ago, to close the mouth of some saying it is under powered).

That doesn't prove anything really, directly from fly manual, F-16 with F-110GE-129 can reach top speed of Mach 1.75 even with DI =100 (which mean 3 external fuel tanks and several missiles). Modern aircraft have more than enough excess thrust to reach high speed even with heavy load because those are placard limit rather than aerodynamic limit, the main issue here is even though Rafale, F-16, F-15..etc can reach high top speed with EFTs their acceleration will suffer and they will take an eternality to get there while depleting all their fuel

A F35 will have to use its AB early in a AtoA combat.

Sure because it will engage first.

pic against pic : a heavy rafale flying at night without AB

Are you delusional or something?
In exactly what way do you think that pic of Rafale will redeem you?
I started showing how well the the F-35 can mask its nozzle by horizontal and vertical stabs from most aspect in cruising condition, you then tried to downplay that by showing photo of F-35 in full afterburner at night. I then pointed out how retarded that idea by showing that every aircraft will look like a chrimas tree with full afterburner, even your beloved Rafale will look like a chrismas tree in broad daylight if full AB was used. To illustrate the difference, i even showed how F-35 will look at night without AB. That the whole idea why i posted the photo in the first place. What exactly make you think that photo of rafale without AB will support your point? if anything, it actually support my point that "there is a significant difference between full ab and military power"

OK...
It is why the plane need to regularly open its bays to refresh itself.
Maybe the pilot has to make a choice : refresh the exhaust pipe or the weapons bays....

Nice try, but as usual, completely wrong, and this is not the first time i taught you about this

Bergs mention of the issue DOT & E describes however misleading. The report talks about has nothing to do with weapons or overheating of the weapons room to do. The reason is that in order to facilitate maintenance of the aircraft so the technicians have added a variety of systems, such as cables, pipes and electronics along the walls of the armory. This makes them more accessible to technicians no longer need to open various doors in the hull every time they should have access. The test program has now revealed that some of these, belonging to the electronic systems on board have not been tested and qualified for the temperatures will occur in the weapons room during high speed at low altitude, or when the aircraft is on the ground with the engine running at air temperatures above 32 degrees celsius. The program can not prove that the parts in question will withstand these temperatures. Until such evidence is in place, it is in line with the "precautionary" principle implemented procedures to ensure that the temperature in the weapons room does not exceed the known and documented its maximum temperature. This is therefore not a problem with the plane as such, but with the data on a single type of parts.

https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=no&sl=no&tl=en&u=http://nettsteder.regjeringen.no/kampfly/2016/02/25/noen-kommentarer-til-nye-pastander-om-f-35/&anno=2&sandbox=1
In short, to ease maintenance, the maintainer have added several pipe/cables along the weapons bay wall , so that they are easily accessible, but since those components haven't been qualified, a restriction is in place to keep it safe. it has nothing to do with the aircraft itself

And of course, by magic, these small ventilation holes are perfectly stealth .... Of course, LM promises that! LOL

And what exactly makes these vents not stealthy when they still obey platform alignment? come on "expert" enlighten us if you know so much

ABSOLUTELY NOT.
Mirage 2000 RCS was in the 1 m² area, and Rafale was, according to Dassault engineers, at least 20 more stealthy than M2000

Mirage 2000 radar scattering chart in dBsm

 

[vampyrbladez]

ABSOLUTELY NOT.
Mirage 2000 RCS was in the 1 m² area, and Rafale was, according to Dassault engineers, at least 20 more stealthy than M2000.

proof or nothing...........................................