Know Your 'Rafale'

[Armand2REP]

News for Malaysia, France has agreed to increase palm oil imports to secure Rafale deal for 18 fighters.

https://www.humanite.fr/la-france-achete-de-lhuile-de-palme-pour-vendre-des-avions-rafale-653721

 

[Armand2REP]

Rafales taking off for Syrian strikes

 

[smestarz]

Not really. its and india vs India problem about a French product and hence the French product would be out of warranty and grounded (availability zero) so in a way the Russian plane has clear warranty..

It's an India vs India problem. Dassault or France has nothing to do with that.
If The Belgium state or Belgium air force don't want to pay to upgrade F16 fleet, it a Belgium vs Belgium problem, not a LM one.

 

[smestarz]

Hahahaha French are really getting deperate each moment.

News for Malaysia, France has agreed to increase palm oil imports to secure Rafale deal for 18 fighters.

https://www.humanite.fr/la-france-achete-de-lhuile-de-palme-pour-vendre-des-avions-rafale-653721

 

[smestarz]

If you have connections with Fighter pilots in IAF (now they might be desk riders) you can ask them, they would tell you
What ego for? Facts become Egos? When faced with facts you term it as ego?

Once again you are vomiting all over the thread without a bloody source.

Don't make shit up to soothe your fragile ego.

 

[smestarz]

IAF wanted the Rafale, but unfortunately the decision does not purely rest on what the forces want
IAF wanted F-22 also, its not available and they know it

There are many such examples.

Forces do not understand budgeting or economics, and since we are on that point, IAF has money just to pay for the Rafales, and of course thats going out of IAF budget. Then they face with realities of cost and expenses and they realise that if spend on planes the operational expenses will be effected, So one way is to increase the budgets (that does not happen) else go for planes with lower operating cost to adjust the operating cost and balance and this is where single engine planes come in

But you can be assured that IAF will end up buying Su-57, it ends up being the logical step along with more of Tejas .

I would take your bet, so lets book mark this,

I do not see more Rafale nos being signed by the incumbent govt,.
Rather i can bet it will be the Russian Su-57 that makes the cut.

Sure not.
IAF want :
1) The Rafale
2) or the Rafale,
3) if not a west product.

The only threat may come from USA because Modi want to tightened the link with USA against China. But US <=> no ToT !

For this time, as for the 2016 Rafale deal : it's only a question of time.

IAF wanted the Rafale.
Parrikar didn't want the Rafale.

At the end, after some years of bargaining the deal was inked. For Rafale.

And as already said, the support & indigenization price is too high to stay at 36 units (India will not make the Mirage 2000 mistake twice). The final number will be between 72 and 250.
My bet? 100 to 120 for IAF. For IN, maybe 57.

 

[sthf]

If you have connections with Fighter pilots in IAF (now they might be desk riders) you can ask them, they would tell you
What ego for? Facts become Egos? When faced with facts you term it as ego?

Yeah..... that is not how "facts" work.
Definition of facts;

Facts - a thing that is known or proved to be true.

Making stuff up to get yourself out of the hole you dug for yourself is not "fact". I don't give rat's ass what your imaginary friend told you. I asked for a source, have the balls to present one.

I haven't even heard Porkis make such an asinine claim, I guess you are worse off than them.

 

[BON PLAN]

Not really. its and india vs India problem about a French product and hence the French product would be out of warranty and grounded (availability zero) so in a way the Russian plane has clear warranty..

Russian planes need a stronger warranty than Dassault ones !

Dassault will never upset a so old and faithfull customer, specially one than need hundred fighters.

 

[Armand2REP]

A French colonel who was flying a Rafale having bombed Syria on the night of April 13 to 14 agreed to answer questions from France 2.

On April 14, five Rafale engaged in the military operation in Syria return grouped without damage at the base of Saint Dizier (Haute-Marne). Accustomed conflict zones, a colonel came to participate in two strikes against targets around Homs.

The mission lasted 10 hours with multiple refueling in flight. The five Rafale joined four Mirage 2000 and AWACS over Corsica and then take the direction of Syria.

The behavior of the Russian aviation was unknown. It was in operation in the Syrian sky, according to the French aviation. "The risks, when we left, existed. We did not know the rules of Russian involvement. We had prepared by taking into account this option in order to save us," says the colonel. According to the French Army, the 12 missiles fired hit their targets: two sites of production and storage of chemical weapons. Mission accomplished for all the military.

 

[WolfPack86]

France has been very transparent in the pricing of the Rafale fighter jet with India. Some parts of the deal have to be kept secret - Dassault Chief Eric Trappier.
https://twitter.com/manupubby?lang=en

 

[WolfPack86]

Interesting. Dassault says it has an advantage in the new Indian fighter jet procurement plan. Eric Trappier says we won the last time on performance and cost, can do it again.

 

[WolfPack86]

We created a team together with Reliance to produce aircraft in India, with Indian people - Dassault Chief Trappier #Rafale

 

[WolfPack86]

Rafale is the only one fighter in the world designed for both land and sea (aircraft carrier) operations - Dassault Chief Trappier on the Indian Navy requirement of 57 fighters.

 

[BON PLAN]

Interesting. Dassault says it has an advantage in the new Indian fighter jet procurement plan. Eric Trappier says we won the last time on performance and cost, can do it again.

Even more than last time : Rafale is more and more evoluted, with a strong road map for future (see the 13 months late arrival of the Captor E of EF ...).
And with the JV with Reliance, Dassault is, at least, 3 years ahead of all the others (except russian products, but IAF don't want russian product this time)

 

[Dixit13]

Although Rafale is formidable fighter jet but i still think India should Buy Mig-35. Rafale comes at a cost of 200 Million /per plane and Contracts also involve technical support, crew training , supplies etc. On the other hand Mig-35 cost around 40-42 million / per plane and its comes with improved avionics and weapon systems, notably the new AESA radar, precision-guided targeting capability, the uniquely designed optical locator system (OLS) and Improved engines with thrust vectoring. And you can further upgrade with indigenous or Israeli/ Western self-protection jammers, avionics and RWRs. Lets say after upgrade Mig-35 will cost like 50 Million/per fighter jet, then we still get 4 jets instead of one. Given that the current issue of declining IAF squadron strength and more so after 2021...Mig-35 sounds far better option then getting Rafale. To counter China we need quantity and remember the wise words of Stalin - ""quantity has a quality of its own.""

Also when you negotiate deal put in a clause that; Mikoyan/Klimov will help in development of Kaveri Engine. And Make sure they never sell it to Chinese.
Jai Hind!

 

[Armand2REP]

Although Rafale is formidable fighter jet but i still think India should Buy Mig-35. Rafale comes at a cost of 200 Million /per plane and Contracts also involve technical support, crew training , supplies etc. On the other hand Mig-35 cost around 40-42 million / per plane and its comes with improved avionics and weapon systems, notably the new AESA radar, precision-guided targeting capability, the uniquely designed optical locator system (OLS) and Improved engines with thrust vectoring. And you can further upgrade with indigenous or Israeli/ Western self-protection jammers, avionics and RWRs. Lets say after upgrade Mig-35 will cost like 50 Million/per fighter jet, then we still get 4 jets instead of one. Given that the current issue of declining IAF squadron strength and more so after 2021...Mig-35 sounds far better option then getting Rafale. To counter China we need quantity and remember the wise words of Stalin - ""quantity has a quality of its own.""

Also when you negotiate deal put in a clause that; Mikoyan/Klimov will help in development of Kaveri Engine. And Make sure they never sell it to Chinese.
Jai Hind!

Rafale is about $100 million per unit, you already have the infrastructure paid for to host more. MiG-35 has no determined cost as it has not been sold. An MKI with no Super 30 upgrade is $77 million, a MiG-35 could cost the same or more. Russia only gives the unit price of the deal, when they report Western aircraft it is unit, infrastructure, sometimes weapons and support rolled into one number.

 

[scatterStorm]

Some days ago there was a report that the Indian Air Force (IAF) is likely to issue a RFI eyeing new fighter jets which will subsequently facilitate India's own fifth gen fighter jet program AMCA.

So instead of potential 6 competitors there will be only two choices....

i) F-35
ii) Su-57

And according to latest report, IAF is interest in neither F-35 nor Su-57.

What do you think?

To me it's all about desperate times, desperate measures. When the RFI was issued, I pointed out that there was this last condition, that the aircraft should sport IWB , IAF did gave a hint that either SU57 or F35 was to be of interest.

But Defexpo2018 laid down new Info on AMCA and the prototype and private industrial partners.

So a stop-gap measure is on the table for IAF. But eventually Rafale have the highest probability to be selected again. As they are now a part of kaveri development too and those nuke reactors too.

Bottom line is, IAF has something else they want but MoD has something else in there minds.

 

[BON PLAN]

Although Rafale is formidable fighter jet but i still think India should Buy Mig-35. Rafale comes at a cost of 200 Million /per plane and Contracts also involve technical support, crew training , supplies etc. On the other hand Mig-35 cost around 40-42 million / per plane and its comes with improved avionics and weapon systems, notably the new AESA radar, precision-guided targeting capability, the uniquely designed optical locator system (OLS) and Improved engines with thrust vectoring. And you can further upgrade with indigenous or Israeli/ Western self-protection jammers, avionics and RWRs. Lets say after upgrade Mig-35 will cost like 50 Million/per fighter jet, then we still get 4 jets instead of one. Given that the current issue of declining IAF squadron strength and more so after 2021...Mig-35 sounds far better option then getting Rafale. To counter China we need quantity and remember the wise words of Stalin - ""quantity has a quality of its own.""

Also when you negotiate deal put in a clause that; Mikoyan/Klimov will help in development of Kaveri Engine. And Make sure they never sell it to Chinese.
Jai Hind!

You're wrong.

We all know now that the Rafale dry price is 90 to 95 million.
The rest is : base accomodation (with 2 bases Indian can park more than 80 planes), indian customization (you paid it once), a weapon batch, training, tools, test bench...

If india purchase another batch of Rafale, the cost will be 95million nearly (+ weapons).

 

[Dixit13]

When i posted my comment i knew sooner or later someone gonna justify the Price tag of it. Training cost, weapons systems, Indian OEMs contracts bla bla bla and some more BS. Mig-35 is upgraded version of Mig-29m2 as India use over 100+ Mig29 comprising of 66 Mig-29UPG and 45 MigK/KUB, so we dont need to build infrastructure and peripherals for it and just need to upgrade them which we have to do in any case as Naval version faces some maintenance issue. Also not much of training is needed.

Above all, given the condition which IAF is in "time is of the essence."

 

[Armand2REP]

When i posted my comment i knew sooner or later someone gonna justify the Price tag of it. Training cost, weapons systems, Indian OEMs contracts bla bla bla and some more BS. Mig-35 is upgraded version of Mig-29m2 as India use over 100+ Mig29 comprising of 66 Mig-29UPG and 45 MigK/KUB, so we dont need to build infrastructure and peripherals for it and just need to upgrade them which we have to do in any case as Naval version faces some maintenance issue. Also not much of training is needed.

Above all, given the condition which IAF is in "time is of the essence."

Actually the MiG-35 uses different TVC engines, AESA radar and new composite structures, it has little in common with the MiG-29 India uses and will require whole new chain of support that India would pay for.

If time is of the essence the MiG-35 is the least developed and last aircraft to go for. Egypt had to cancel its order as it was still not finished testing.