Know Your 'Rafale'

[pmaitra]

I think the comparison should be made with export price of Rafale than the domestic prices for the French Airforce.

And it's not just Rafale. Do look at Su-30 prices for RuAf and IAF.

The unit price of Su-30MK2 for RuAF was $40 million or thereabouts in 2012-2013.

IAF was paying $56-60 million for HAL "manufactured" Su-30MKIs in 2014!! That is almost 50% higher. Of course MKI includes India-specific modifications, see the picture???

This website claims that F-16 Block 52 per unit cost for the USAF is only $34 million!!!

http://www.deagel.com/Combat-Aircraft/F-16D-Block-52_a000540012.aspx

and Iraq recently bought 18 F-16s for $105 million per AC!!

After all the diatribe, Shook-law himself says



Indian contract is very transparent and all the details are available including on Shook-law's website.

Sukhoi-30MKI costs $38 million a piece.
Sukhoi-30MK2 costs $62 million a piece (probably for RuAF) and for export to Vietnam, it cost $37.5 million a piece (likely watered down).

These numbers are still inconclusive without knowing the details of the deals in question. Sukhoi-30MK2 does not have front canards, while Sukhoi-30MKI does have front canards (except for a first batch that was acquired from Russia).

Spoiler: Sukhoi-30MK2

 

[mayfair]

Sukhoi-30MKI costs $38 million a piece.
Sukhoi-30MK2 costs $62 million a piece (probably for RuAF)

Actually as per Ajai Shukla himself in,

The IAF currently plans to have 272 Su-30MKI fighters by about 2018. HAL’s Nashik production line is building the fighter at Rs 358 crore each, less than half the estimated cost of buying the Rafale.

http://www.business-standard.com/ar...n-make-do-with-sukhoi-30s-114123100706_1.html

This was in December 2014 and translated to about $56 million.

This figure is corroborated by another article in Feb 2016

http://www.deccanchronicle.com/opinion/columnists/110216/the-high-cost-of-air-power.html

An Su-30MKI costs about Rs 360 crore each.

Then this report in 2016 gave an even higher figure

http://defence-blog.com/news/indian-air-force-to-buy-40-more-su-30mki-fighters.html

The Indian Air Force (IAF) has initiated the procurement of a fresh lot of 40 additional Su-30MKI air dominance fighters at an estimated $75 million apiece

And surprisingly Ajai Shukla writing for Business standard in April 14 had this to say

http://www.business-standard.com/ar...ukhoi-30mki-fleet-by-2019-114042200138_1.html

[The] order of 272 Su-30MKIs, which started out as a bargain at $30 million apiece, but which are now priced at $75 million each.

 

[pmaitra]

Actually as per Ajai Shukla himself in,



http://www.business-standard.com/ar...n-make-do-with-sukhoi-30s-114123100706_1.html

This was in December 2014 and translated to about $56 million.

This figure is corroborated by another article in Feb 2016

http://www.deccanchronicle.com/opinion/columnists/110216/the-high-cost-of-air-power.html



Then this report in 2016 gave an even higher figure

http://defence-blog.com/news/indian-air-force-to-buy-40-more-su-30mki-fighters.html



And surprisingly Ajai Shukla writing for Business standard in April 14 had this to say

http://www.business-standard.com/ar...ukhoi-30mki-fleet-by-2019-114042200138_1.html

You are right. It does translate into $55 million.

Ajai Shukla, 2014: $75 million.
Ajai Shukla, 2015: $55 million.

The first link gives the explanation as to how indigenization was to be achieved in four phases and how indigenizing certain components (such as Titanium parts) would actually increase the production cost. As more and more units are produced, the unit cost is bound to go down. Nonetheless, it is a massive jump-down, from $75 million to $55 million.

 

[Kshithij]

You are right. It does translate into $55 million.

Ajai Shukla, 2014: $75 million.
Ajai Shukla, 2015: $55 million.

The first link gives the explanation as to how indigenization was to be achieved in four phases and how indigenizing certain components (such as Titanium parts) would actually increase the production cost. As more and more units are produced, the unit cost is bound to go down. Nonetheless, it is a massive jump-down, from $75 million to $55 million.

Sukhoi price has increased to 75 million from 56 million.

Super Sukhoi upgrade is said to be costing ovet 6 billion if India orders. This may be the reason for Su30 price rise. The latest Su30 is actually Super Su30 with AlF41 engines.

I am not sure about the maintenance cost of Su30 or Rafale. With Indian deal, 7 years of maintenance is covered by Dassault.

Even with the maintenance, Rafale still appears expensive. I guess, some decent ToT may be in place to get better deal. More details is definitely needed for better transparency

 

[mayfair]

French products on the whole are expensive. Be it Mirage 2000s, Scorpenes, MBDA missiles or others. Our Mirage 2000 upgrades cost upwards of $45 million a plane, while Mig29 UPGs come to about $12-15 million a plane.

 

[SELVAM]

French products on the whole are expensive. Be it Mirage 2000s, Scorpenes, MBDA missiles or others. Our Mirage 2000 upgrades cost upwards of $45 million a plane, while Mig29 UPGs come to about $12-15 million a plane.

Still worth a money unlike russian junks

 

[mayfair]

Still worth a money unlike russian junks

Now that's a matter of perception. Soviet/Russian stuff was designed for a different doctrine- hardy stuff which can take off from unprepared or semi-prepared landing fields, accommodate foreign objects flying into engines etc. which probably meant that the stuff was good while it lasted, but did not last very long.

To IAF's credit, they made the Russian stuff better than the original manufacturers intended. Could have been better if spares and support was more forthcoming.

French stuff has good reputation as expensive but reliable, but it's not always so as Taiwan's troubles with Mirage 2000-5 have shown.

 

[indus]

Still worth a money unlike russian junks

Not really. If it were so we would not be buying Russian stuff again n again. Russian hardware is as good as French or American. It is the supply chain that is weak. Especially after Soviet Union break up much of millitary manufacturing capacity went into other countries like Ukraine. Su 30s is a great aircraft and IAF by fusing Israeli and French avionics has made it even more potent. But its operational readiness level was arnd 50% when new Govt took over. Henceforth Govt signed direct agreements with many oem and key suppliers which helped increase the availability to 65%. Advantage with US weaponery is that they have a strong supply chain backup. So its costly but causes less hassles in operation.

 

[Rahul Singh]

And who is "you" in this?

Men in XYZ of concerned type(s). I think the post you quoted has ample hints, No?

 

[smestarz]

And yet the Russian planes in IAF ensure that the French plane in IAF does not get bumped off by American plane in PAF

Still worth a money unlike russian junks

 

[hit&run]

Check this....his report on Rafale deal

Why take him seriously Sir.

He is already passing judgement. Calling DM mere spectator gives away all the expertise he pretends to have.

One big question that Dog Shukla is his misery from being an insider to an outsider with no access.

From a reporter to a potty mouth troll who now rely on left wing lies is a such a shame to him that he has no other way but to go low.

Not only that his tail become straight every time congress-I throws an accusation against Modi. He then obliges by spinning it to make more plausible even if he has to contradict himself. To cater Congi lies is his full time job these days.

 

[Rahul Singh]

Why take him seriously Sir.

He is already passing judgement. Calling DM mere spectator gives away all the expertise he pretends to have.

One big question that Dog Shukla is his misery from being an insider to an outsider with no access.

From a reporter to a potty mouth troll who now rely on left wing lies is a such a shame to him that he has no other way but to go low.

Not only that his tail become straight every time congress-I throws an accusation against Modi. He then obliges by spinning it to make more plausible even if he has to contradict himself. To cater Congi lies is his full time job these days.

He is NDTV's(Presstitution House) that sums all who he is.

Though it is another thing that more Rafales means lesser American fighters (if at all) something which conflicts his interests with American MICs.

 

[Yggdrasil]

Why take him seriously Sir.

He is already passing judgement. Calling DM mere spectator gives away all the expertise he pretends to have.

One big question that Dog Shukla is his misery from being an insider to an outsider with no access.

From a reporter to a potty mouth troll who now rely on left wing lies is a such a shame to him that he has no other way but to go low.

Not only that his tail become straight every time congress-I throws an accusation against Modi. He then obliges by spinning it to make more plausible even if he has to contradict himself. To cater Congi lies is his full time job these days.

Well said. Pidi Shukla seems to have lost some good dalali revenue once the new government took over, his heartburn is pretty obvious.

 

[Kay]

Guys you are unnecessarily harsh on Col. Shukla. He has political preferences, but he did report the on the Pilatus procurement scam (?) in UPA when all other journos were quiet. He did back the Tejas project and Arjun (after flip-flopping a bit). Also he is one of the few reporters reporting on defence budget allocations.
Some of his criticisms are justified - like setting up another mountain division (increasing fixed costs instead of modernization). You have defence journos in India who are simply dalaals for foreign companies.

 

[proud_indian]

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[Kay]

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Report by Vishnu Som
https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/why...ent-being-shared-1779270?amp=1&akamai-rum=off
Rebuttal awaited.

Ignoring the nonsense,
"
A third of the offset value has been reserved for the state-run Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), whose team is scheduled to travel to France soon in part to solicit help in reviving the indigenous Kaveri jet engine project. India is also thought to be interested in acquiring French expertise in low observability technology which would make Indian make military aircraft and warships tougher to detect.,"
Can this mean we are getting RAM coating from France?

 

[proud_indian]

Report by Vishnu Som
https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/why...ent-being-shared-1779270?amp=1&akamai-rum=off
Rebuttal awaited.

Ignoring the nonsense,
"
A third of the offset value has been reserved for the state-run Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), whose team is scheduled to travel to France soon in part to solicit help in reviving the indigenous Kaveri jet engine project. India is also thought to be interested in acquiring French expertise in low observability technology which would make Indian make military aircraft and warships tougher to detect.,"
Can this mean we are getting RAM coating from France?

there's a lot cooking behind the scene we can only speculate about and AMCA is one of them for sure

 

[pmaitra]

The unit price of Su-30MK2 for RuAF was $40 million or thereabouts in 2012-2013.

Sukhoi-30MK2 costs $62 million a piece (probably for RuAF) and for export to Vietnam, it cost $37.5 million a piece (likely watered down).

I wanted to add a caveat to the aforementioned posts.

Typically, any equipment meant for the Russian Air Force would not have a K suffix. The K suffix stands for commercial models (Коммерческий/Kommercheskiy), aka export versions. So, if Sukhoi-30MK2 is for export, Sukhoi-30M2 would be for the Russian Air Force.

It needs to be verified whether Sukhoi-30MK2 was at all intended for or delivered to the Russian Air Force.

 

[hit&run]

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This Shukla very well knows that this deal is transparent and all the prices and other sundries are available to CCS.

Look again he is already calling the government Crook but then surprisingly the fact slap came from a character of his own jerk circle.

One poster mentioned that he has exposed few other discrepancies during UPA. My counter is, on whose behalf or whom he was trying to benefit ? The Cui bono must be known before eulogising him. These so called expose are generally tip offs, sometimes from the government itself. Now he gets nothing not even a trickle.

Just because he can throw some jargons and runs a blog doesn't make him last world on Indian's defence matters. I read better poster here at DFI than Shulka and Som put together.

The kind of patronising commentary he spouts sometime make me laugh at him and his followers. He thinks he can supersede GoI and can change the policy or decision making. LOL.. The reality is he and 'we all' are nothing in all our collective effort typing thousands of words every day but complete slaves of the News and updates issued by the government. But this fool is on spree of misleading people without any proof.

I for many good reason am super confident that Shukla kind of nonsense will never find any place in this forum. Unlike ordinary joe who due to their laziness feed on whatever is served to them but here many brains are super active freelance analysts who scare the hell out of propagandists and nonsense paddlers.

So far we are going good.

 

[lcafanboy]

Rafale makers invite French SMEs to set up shop in India
Published November 30, 2017 | By admin SOURCE: THE HINDU

After securing a deal to sell 36 Rafale fighters jets to India, and not withstanding the political brouhaha that has erupted in its wake, Dassault Aviation is looking to attract and house an organic ecosystem of French SMEs in India. The aim is to secure its component manufacturing needs here. France’s Centre Val de Loire Regional Council and Aerocentre invited the companies behind the development of the Rafale fighter jet, Dassault Aviation, Safran and Thales — which together make up Rafale International — to showcase and present to the SMEs in the region, how they are helping set up an industrial aeronautical sector in India. Some 50-odd small businesses in France were present on the occasion. The companies spoke on how they would be contributing to ‘Make in India’ as part of the Rafale offset programme, even as they presented the many opportunities available for French SMEs to invest and set up production facilities in India. Defining a roadmap for the French SMEs to help them join the Dassault Aviation, Safran and Thales global supply chain, the companies said the initiative would help bolster the industrial ecosystem already under way in India, and would benefit both French and Indian partners. Meantime, components for the Dassault Falcon 2000s are also to be made in India from the first quarter of next year, when the joint venture Dassault Reliance Aerospace manufacturing facility opens up in Mihan, Nagpur. After the facility gains expertise in manufacturing components for the Falcon 2000 jets, it could also expand capabilities to include final assembly of Rafale fighters.

http://idrw.org/rafale-makers-invite-french-smes-to-set-up-shop-in-india/#more-155367 .