Kaveri for Infamous MIG-21 fleet

[Kunal Biswas]

In my view, It still a have export potential ..

If kaveri has to stay, Then it must mass produce for following points ..

 

[bengalraider]

No target drones please, i'd prefer to see the old migs turned into saturation attack flying bombs aka the Chinese J-7 conversions. a few hundred old migs converted into flying bombs should be able to take down sargodha easily.

Meet China's new-old killer drones
Unmanned J-6 fighter jets put on Fujian air base

 

[Kunal Biswas]

MiG-21 Fighter Jet Crashes in Gujarat's Jamnagar, Pilot Safe
January 31, 2015 16:53 IST

Gujarat: A MiG-21 fighter jet of the Indian Air Force today crashed near Bed village in Gujarat's Jamnagar disrtict.The pilot was able to eject safely before the crash. The jet was on a routine exercise mission."The pilot safely ejected and landed in tide-pool created by the sea water near the spot," said Suerintendent of Police Neeraj Badgujar.The pilot who has sustained minor injuries was rescued by an Indian Air Force (IAF) chopper immediately after the crash.A court inquiry has been initiated to determine the cause of the crash.This is the second MiG fighter jet that has crashed in this week.A MiG-27 jet had crashed on Tuesday in Barmer, Rajasthan hitting a passing by motorcycle. The rider was seriously injured, while the pilot who ejected before the crash, suffered minor injuries.

Source : :: Bharat-Rakshak.com - Indian Military News Headlines ::

================

If not kaveri, Then their should be some other alternative is an immediate requirement ..

 

[Illusive]

If not kaveri, Then their should be some other alternative is an immediate requirement ..

How about turning them into drones, like chinese did to their j7's, can HAL do it?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

That is not in option, As IAF does not have such plans of any such kind ..

Instead they wanted to keep these till 2025, The upgrade is one of the feasible possibilities ..

How about turning them into drones, like chinese did to their j7's, can HAL do it?

 

[Punya Pratap]

Good Idea @Kunal .... It is true that Mig 21 Bis and Bison will be progressively replaced but they will need to fill in the numbers up till 2025 as that is the time we should start getting suitable replacements in Tejas!

However there are certain sticking points to your suggestion :

1) IAF will not want this to happen simply because they are using Mig 21 crashes as an argument to force the MoD and GoI to buy the MMRCA.... after all the MMRCA is supposed to shore up the numbers of Mig 21 / 27 planes lost through phase out. IT is a twisted argument but it is there!
2) Secondly IAF is damned tired of Mig 21/27 and want to get rid of them any how.... they will not be happy with a re-engined 21 or 27
3) If the Kaveri becomes a success in the 21/27 then the IAF fears that GoI might simply wash its hands off MMRCA coz that will keep 21/27 in service till 2025 + and GoI will tell IAF to induct TejasMK2, AMCA and FGFA instead and forget MMRCA as by 2025 we should (?) start adding the Mk 2 and FGFA while the AMCA should be on flight tests!!
4) On a technical note any re-engining will mean that the entire plane needs to go through a reconfiguration especially CoG... I think the compact Kaveri will free up more space for fuel storage thereby increasing the flight radius!
5) Mig 21/ 27 both are single engined fighter and it is a risky proposition to put in an untested engine like Kaveri in it.... twin engine fighters can survive if one power plant malfunctions so that can be used as an argument against using the Kaveri in both 21 or 27!

 

[Kunal Biswas]

MiG-21-93 re-engined with the Klimov RD-33 engine in past and proved successful, But IAF did not included that into the upgrades of MIG-21 in past and today we are losing pilots in mass, Either, Be it Kaveri or RD-33 which is also used by MIG-29 in IAF, This will stop killings of young pilots ..

We are expecting nearly +200 Tejas in next 10 years to replace MIG-21 and 27 fleet in IAF according to multiple sources, Including Government, IAF wanted to keep MIG-21 till 2022 ..

 

[Punya Pratap]

I know @ Kunal and it is indeed a good idea which is my first line in my previous post but every proposal meets with pros & cons hence the list of points!

Having said that I also wish that we stop this Widow Maker from killing any more pilots...till 2022 or 2025!

The upshot will be that Kaveri will get refined over the production period!

 

[sgarg]

MiG-21-93 re-engined with the Klimov RD-33 engine in past and proved successful, But IAF did not included that into the upgrades of MIG-21 in past and today we are losing pilots in mass, Either, Be it Kaveri or RD-33 which is also used by MIG-29 in IAF, This will stop killings of young pilots ..

We are expecting nearly +200 Tejas in next 10 years to replace MIG-21 and 27 fleet in IAF according to multiple sources, Including Government, IAF wanted to keep MIG-21 till 2022 ..

I think you have answered it yourself. RD-33 is much better choice compared to Kavery for re-engining Mig-21. I think this should be given serious consideration.

However I feel that increasing LCA Tejas production rate to 25+ per year is a better solution. India can and must build one squadron of Tejas per year.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Let me clear the air here, Russian hardware are always if not then in most cases proved inferior to our origin products, In time i have seen them failing from small arms to SAM and Tank rounds let it be as a Guest or being in firing range with weapon ..

The only reason, I am mentioning the RD-33 is because Kaveri is no longer available, We do not produce RD-33 at home we import them and their parts from Russia as we are already doing for MIG-29 fleet, It is not even close to better than Kaveri if it was available ..

About Tejas i agree with you, Government already looking into Pvt co for second production line ..

I think you have answered it yourself. RD-33 is much better choice compared to Kavery for re-engining Mig-21. I think this should be given serious consideration.

However I feel that increasing LCA Tejas production rate to 25+ per year is a better solution. India can and must build one squadron of Tejas per year.

==============

The Government have to decide the madness behind such decision of IAF ..

The engine of MIG-21 has to be changed to stop this killing ..

I know @ Kunal and it is indeed a good idea which is my first line in my previous post but every proposal meets with pros & cons hence the list of points!

Having said that I also wish that we stop this Widow Maker from killing any more pilots...till 2022 or 2025!

The upshot will be that Kaveri will get refined over the production period!

 

[rahulrds1]

Re: Kaveri Engine

India's own fighter plane Engine , Kaveri @ aero india 2015

 

[Kyubi]

Re: Kaveri Engine

sgarg sahib, there is no doubt about our own engine should get into LCA. my desire is having come this far, and having certified Kaveri in whatever form and specification it was certified for, should be ported to a TD/Prototype. If we have 8 engines, convert about 8 LCA TDs to Kaveri based fighter. The data from such use is so much useful that it beats all certifications so far we have got. This is vital, and not dump Kaveri project like our babooze think and do. For them, it is all about input/output.

absolutely, precision engineering and safety-critical systems like kaveri can't be dumped like that. or is this all a whitewash for public information I am not sure. Yes, we can have the next generation engine going in that matches GE 414 specs, but that is entirely different ball game. Getting Kaveri data from LCA TD is entirely different base-ball game. This is important.

What I heard from the guy @kaveri stall @aeroindia 2015 is that they have the mandate to complete the project with all the necessary certifications and then the gov will decide in what capacity/platform can the engine be used!!!

sgarg sahib, there is no doubt about our own engine should get into LCA. my desire is having come this far, and having certified Kaveri in whatever form and specification it was certified for, should be ported to a TD/Prototype. If we have 8 engines, convert about 8 LCA TDs to Kaveri based fighter. The data from such use is so much useful that it beats all certifications so far we have got. This is vital, and not dump Kaveri project like our babooze think and do. For them, it is all about input/output.

absolutely, precision engineering and safety-critical systems like kaveri can't be dumped like that. or is this all a whitewash for public information I am not sure. Yes, we can have the next generation engine going in that matches GE 414 specs, but that is entirely different ball game. Getting Kaveri data from LCA TD is entirely different base-ball game. This is important.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Very gud news, Waiting to see how things get developed into ..

 

[roma]

@Ray @LETHALFORCE @sorcerer @Kunal @sgarg @pmaitra @Singh @ersakthivel

Few points for the uninformed please
so at aero india they displayed half-done job ?
as the kaveri is yet incomplete ?

why not Namo does some personnel changes for kaveri - as he has done for drdo etc ?

or the fact that he is not doing so indicates satisfaction ?
i.e kaveri is close to completion ?
if so we would be ahead of china in this particular area ?

Sirs, many thanks for your esteemed clarification & information

 

[pmaitra]

@Ray @LETHALFORCE @sorcerer @Kunal @sgarg @pmaitra @Singh @ersakthivel

Few points for the uninformed please
so at aero india they displayed half-done job ?
as the kaveri is yet incomplete ?

why not Namo does some personnel changes for kaveri - as he has done for drdo etc ?

or the fact that he is not doing so indicates satisfaction ?
i.e kaveri is close to completion ?
if so we would be ahead of china in this particular area ?

Sirs, many thanks for your esteemed clarification & information

• Does NaMo have the slightest idea as to what goes into making a turbine?
• How will simply shifting people around or replacing people make things better?
• The people at GTRE have brought the project so far. Would it be a smart move to remove or shuffle these people around?
• Can NaMo instead bring in people that can plug the gaps and deficiencies of what has been made already?

Slightly off-topic, but not entirely:

• He got rid of the Planning Commission, but replaced it with something very similar.
• He cut down on the funding for research, which will affect our universities. Is this a good idea to achieve self reliance in high-tech fields?

Don't give ideas to NaMo. I have my fears, which I hope are unfounded, that NaMo is getting too used to being in the media spotlight, and he might end up doing something very stupid.

 

[ladder]

• 
  Don't give ideas to NaMo. I have my fears, which I hope are unfounded, that NaMo is getting too used to being in the media spotlight, and he might end up doing something very stupid.

• 
  
  It very well can go that way.

 

[sgarg]

There is no interference in DRDO functioning from PM's office. PM's job is to encourage the scientists to achieve bigger objectives. That is what he has done.

Why would PM interfere in Kavery turbine project. It makes no sense.

It is our wish to see Kavery engine on LCA Tejas. Of course the starting point is to put it on Tejas TD series.

@roma, namo does not do personnel changes at DRDO. It is DM's job who oversees DRDO. And even DM would only be concerned with senior-most people.

 

[roma]

• Does NaMo have the slightest idea as to what goes into making a turbine?
• How will simply shifting people around or replacing people make things better?
• The people at GTRE have brought the project so far. Would it be a smart move to remove or shuffle these people around?
• Can NaMo instead bring in people that can plug the gaps and deficiencies of what has been made already?

Slightly off-topic, but not entirely:

• He got rid of the Planning Commission, but replaced it with something very similar.
• He cut down on the funding for research, which will affect our universities. Is this a good idea to achieve self reliance in high-tech fields?

Don't give ideas to NaMo. I have my fears, which I hope are unfounded, that NaMo is getting too used to being in the media spotlight, and he might end up doing something very stupid.

It very well can go that way.

thanks to both of you above for appreciating my sarcasm - i agree with both of your closing sentences

unfortunately all that did glitter is proving to be something other than pure gold , but there still is a
chance that it might be something less but still a version of gold - which is still better than what we had
preceding , so we're still to a large extent grateful !

There is no interference in DRDO functioning from PM's office. PM's job is to encourage the scientists to achieve bigger objectives. That is what he has done.

Why would PM interfere in Kavery turbine project. It makes no sense.

It is our wish to see Kavery engine on LCA Tejas. Of course the starting point is to put it on Tejas TD series.

@roma, namo does not do personnel changes at DRDO. It is DM's job who oversees DRDO. And even DM would only be concerned with senior-most people.

as a general manager one has to make it one's business to know about an area under oneself that is
not delivering ...... that is why an engineering plus mba combination gets a high salary

when a general manager has to handle something technical , they claim the very excuse you have mentioned
that they are non tehnical and so cant be expected to know .....so the problem drags on ?

as for your statement that it is the DM and not PM who made the drdo changes
hah ! apparently you weren't around when it was widely known that the DM Parrikar
learned about the changes at drdo , through the media !

nothing against you personally because i only ask for opinion from people whom i respect
and you can easily see that i have included you a number of times

no one is a know all around here except a few who pretend to be ....and i never ask their opinion .

addendum:- IF the kaveri is costing taxpayers money , and large sums of it ,
then it is namo's business to know what's going on and who too - and if he needs to kick
some butt ...then the right ones' please
.....meanwhile it takes more than just kick ...it also takes getting right ones in ....of course !

 

[pmaitra]

@roma, you are probably aware, we learn not only from our successes, but also from our failures. Failure is a step towards success. This is an inherent part of research. Modi comes from an environment where balancing the annual financial accounts and seeing a positive number is seen as more important. People look at the money spent on research as a total waste if the end result is not good. What people don't realize is that the money spent which is seen as "waste" is actually useful, because that money went in as investment towards capability building. It is not waste. Of course, if things drag on, someone has to pull the plug.

There are too many variables in the scenario you mentioned. Removing and/or shuffling people around, in my opinion, is not a constructive idea.

Whatever Kaveri is today, we cannot discount the immense knowledge gained by the scientists and engineers who have brought the project thus far. Kaveri today might not be useful, but who knows, tomorrow, this very engine might be perfectly fit for a new twin-engined fighter or a small transporter, and if any small tweaks are necessary, GTRE might actually pull it off.

If India really wants to have full control of its foreign policy, then its dependence on imports have to be reduced, even if our products are a little bit inferior to the western counterparts.

 

[roma]

@roma, you are probably aware, we learn not only from our successes, but also from our failures. Failure is a step towards success. This is an inherent part of research. Modi comes from an environment where balancing the annual financial accounts and seeing a positive number is seen as more important. People look at the money spent on research as a total waste if the end result is not good. What people don't realize is that the money spent which is seen as "waste" is actually useful, because that money went in as investment towards capability building. It is not waste. Of course, if things drag on, someone has to pull the plug.

There are too many variables in the scenario you mentioned. Removing and/or shuffling people around, in my opinion, is not a constructive idea.

Whatever Kaveri is today, we cannot discount the immense knowledge gained by the scientists and engineers who have brought the project thus far. Kaveri today might not be useful, but who knows, tomorrow, this very engine might be perfectly fit for a new twin-engined fighter or a small transporter, and if any small tweaks are necessary, GTRE might actually pull it off.

If India really wants to have full control of its foreign policy, then its dependence on imports have to be reduced, even if our products are a little bit inferior to the western counterparts.

totally agree !

i believe you read me correctly in that i wasnt asking for changes, just for the sake of it - i was
just countering another members point of view that a pm doesnt get involved at that ("lower" ) level

i was making the point that if public finances are used and wastage is perceived as happening
then any pm cant claim to be too high up to get involved

and if, yes only if personnel changes are needed , well then it has to be done
but in many cases , as you have said , it is a mater of learning and wastage did not take place .

well if that is so, then obviously no necessity for changes .....hope that clarifies