Kaveri for Infamous MIG-21 fleet

[sgarg]

Its not about reviving Migs but saving pilots, Each year at average of two-three MIG-21s are going down, Mostly because of faulty engines ..

There can be many reasons. Engine is one of them. Let us not says that all planes are going down due to engine.

The best solution remains replacement of Mig-21 with Tejas, by massive ramping up of LCA Tejas volume.

However I am all for very careful maintenance of Mig-21 fleet. IAF should devote extra resources to Mig-21 maintenance to make sure that planes are flyable.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

I have posted in very good detail about the engine issue, The issue is unsolved despite design change as well as maintenance since 1990 ..

125 MIG-21 bisons will remain till 2021 and that is the target ..

There can be many reasons. Engine is one of them. Let us not says that all planes are going down due to engine.

The best solution remains replacement of Mig-21 with Tejas, by massive ramping up of LCA Tejas volume.

However I am all for very careful maintenance of Mig-21 fleet. IAF should devote extra resources to Mig-21 maintenance to make sure that planes are flyable.

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Their will be no more than 125 MIG-21 projected will be fielded till 2021, All of them will be of Bison variant not Bis, So we are looking at only bison fleet ..

In the present config, Kaveri is not good as RD-33 engines, In future this can be changed if possible ..

Sir, we need more than 254 engines.
Press Information Bureau English Releases

If it is possible to fit this engine on MiG then they should try for MiG 29.

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

Its not about reviving Migs but saving pilots, Each year at average of two-three MIG-21s are going down, Mostly because of faulty engines ..

IAF wants to make them operational till 2021, How many pilots would go down with their Mig-21s ?

MIG -21 does which claimed so many lives, Kaveri is not going to Tejas anytime soon, But if not Tejas why not MIGs ? , This is a noble cause ..

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Further, If IAF does not care about its Pilots then we must do, After all they are our own, It can be someone brother or father, Condolence won`t make MIG-21 safer but right steps will and Gov should ensure this goes in Right direction ..






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Well at the moment we know that engine produce 78kn compare to earlier 70-75kn, Other information are not released yet but i am sure they must have reduce the overall weight ..

i dont know much but other parameters such as bypass ratio, compression ratios also do play an important tole i think

so unless those parameters are upto the mark i dont think the engines can be replaced

life of engine is a negotiable thing as we will have home grown engine we can spare some more money on low life engines + cahnce to learn know defects and improve

 

[sgarg]

I have posted in very good detail about the engine issue, The issue is unsolved despite design change as well as maintenance since 1990 ..

Now the materials as well as manufacturing technology is much better. If the engine is made today with same design, it will work better, just due to better manufacturing techniques.

HAL knows how to build these engines. HAL can be asked to build brand new engines for these planes.

New engines can plug the gap as you desire.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Kaveri already gone through such parameters and passed, I have posted the link already on first page ..

Only after full certified, I recommend such modifications, I have said this before ..

so unless those parameters are upto the mark i dont think the engines can be replaced

 

[sgarg]

It seems all fighters of Mig-21 generation had similar problems. Reliability has since increased with improved technology.

I think aircraft engine needs a change after a certain number of overhauls. You cannot overhaul an engine indefinitely.

So building new R-25 is the solution if Mig21-bison is to be kept longer.

 

[sgarg]

Terrible idea. Migs are old, like REALLY old. They have a reputation of high crash rates. Kaveri is untested, and unreliable. What they need to do is to first "prove" that they have actually built an engine. They need to fly it, and actually prove they have a flyable engine even if it is underpowered. A Tejas powered by Kaveri would never enter IAF. ADA/HAL move at a snails pace. They are talking about 2018 when they'll be done making changes to Tejas to fit the F414. (I really doubt we'll see MKII in IAF before 2020). Aim for GTRE should be to have Kaveri ready for AMCA. And they desperately need take some confidence building measures, at least have a testbed in India to test their engines. The way DRDO/HAL do things doesn't inspire any confidence, so talking about exports is akin to day dreaming right now.

Kavery will definitely go into a LCA prototype even if it does not make it to production LCA.

 

[sgarg]

Contacted a HAL source and opinion is that IAF maintenance procedures need an audit. It is possible that parts are not being replaced at due intervals or quality of parts is suspect.

IAF has a tendency to blame others for its ills. People do not realize that IAF does a lot of maintenance in-house.

This is INDIA where things are rarely what they appear.

The high performance aircrafts need changes of many items at regular intervals. Maintaining a military aircraft is complex. It involves a lot of expenditure.

 

[TrueSpirit1]

Migs are old, we should use them as ummanned drones

Can it be actually done ?

 

[sayareakd]

Can it be actually done ?

yeah they did most of the work for Nirbhay and Rustam and other drones.

Rustam can take off from runway and can land. Nirbhay has auto pilot. So they dont need to do that much.

 

[SilentKiller]

If am right, i read that india has developed a marine version of kaveri engine.
Indian navy has already placed orders for them and may be some of our older frigates are in line to get them.

But kaveri for mig21 is not an option, reasons are dimensions and needs, kaveri can be developed for use on drones for time being and for future MK3 (twin engine mk3's).
What you guys suggest?

 

[biswaranjanrath.sipu]

If am right, i read that india has developed a marine version of kaveri engine.
Indian navy has already placed orders for them and may be some of our older frigates are in line to get them.

But kaveri for mig21 is not an option, reasons are dimensions and needs, kaveri can be developed for use on drones for time being and for future MK3 (twin engine mk3's).
What you guys suggest?

Ya .I do agree with u. Apart from that ADE can use two kaveri engines to build a dedicated twin engine bomber like European tornado deep penitration aircraft to replace its aging jaguar fleet. The current thrust of kaveri (78kn) will not be a problem as the twin engine jaguar need Max 50kn thrust from each engine. So kaveri is more than enough for making a superior deep penitration bomber aircraft. Except this if GTRE wish(which is not going to happen probably) they can use it as an engine for transport aircraft by doing little modification to it.

 

[Android]

Sounes like a good idea,going by the specifications provided both of'em have almost got same with weight but kaveri coming out as winner in wet trust parameter. I don't how much would Russian's aggreement/disagreement would matter when replacing R25 with kaveri,tough it may have an issue when fitted into a foreign Mig21. Other question is,would its airframe be strong enough for 78kn of trust in AB,but yes it could be tested in mig's for once to figure it out if really it works or not.

Diameter: 910 mm[/COLOR][/B]
Dry weight: 1,235 kg [Goal: 2,100-2450 lb (950-1100 kg)]
Military thrust : 11,687 lbf (52.0 kN)
Full afterburner: 18,210 lbf (81.0 kN) (planned to be refined to >95 kN)

Dr. V.K. Saraswat talk in IITB said - Current Kaveri generates 78KN wet thrust Vs goal of 81KN.

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It was said to be tested on mig29(as per Jha's blog) but its been a year since then but not news of it yet. Still,i wonder if the engine will be turned to certification standards even if it is over weight and under powered as per the requirments,hope they solve these two issues soon as solving these may improve engines performance aswell.

 

[sgarg]

@Android, Kavery is NOT A CERTIFIED engine yet. It cannot be fitted to any production fighter.
Kavery has to finish its development program. Once it does, it will be fitted on LCA Tejas prototype first.

India can manufacture new R-25 engines if needed.

 

[Android]

@Android, Kavery is NOT A CERTIFIED engine yet. It cannot be fitted to any production fighter.
Kavery has to finish its development program. Once it does, it will be fitted on LCA Tejas prototype first.

That is what i said ,that IF it has to get certified it needs to fullfil the requirment as i said as per specification of the engine that we know now,it is overweight and underpowered,no where near what IAF wants the engine to be like. Don't know where the engine would be tested once certified but HOPE it gets certified soon.

India can manufacture new R-25 engines if needed.

How much difference would it make say if instead of building a new R25 we fittin' in a karveri,looking at the present specifications, karveri looks to be on par if not better than r25 or am i missin' something?

 

[sgarg]

That is what i said ,that IF it has to get certified it needs to fullfil the requirment as i said as per specification of the engine that we know now,it is overweight and underpowered,no where near what IAF wants the engine to be like. Don't know where the engine would be tested once certified but HOPE it gets certified soon.


How much difference would it make say if instead of building a new R25 we fittin' in a karveri,looking at the present specifications, karveri looks to be on par if not better than r25 or am i missin' something?

The problem with Kavery is likely more that just being overweight and underpowered. The engine has to be reliable. Kavery is still far from a practical application in a fighter.

A new R25 will make a huge difference to Mig-21 operations. Old engines become faulty and cannot be properly rectified.

 

[Android]

The engine has to be reliable.

Could you elobarate abit on this,of how it could be said to be more reliable?

 

[biswaranjanrath.sipu]

The problem with Kavery is likely more that just being overweight and underpowered. The engine has to be reliable. Kavery is still far from a practical application in a fighter.

A new R25 will make a huge difference to Mig-21 operations. Old engines become faulty and cannot be properly rectified.

Till now kaveri had crossed 2050 hrs of test .tell me how much time it needs to be reliable ? ya of course weight is a major issue which need to be sorted out as soon as possible. I do not tell u r wrong,but DRDO should take a try with kaveri in either mig 21or mig 29 even though there is certain problem.

 

[sgarg]

Till now kaveri had crossed 2050 hrs of test .tell me how much time it needs to be reliable ? ya of course weight is a major issue which need to be sorted out as soon as possible. I do not tell u r wrong,but DRDO should take a try with kaveri in either mig 21or mig 29 even though there is certain problem.

You should contact GTRE and ask questions to them. Nobody has said that Kavery is fit for aircraft application.

The testing is TOTAL of all variants of engine. They are now working on 10th iteration. This engine is under fabrication.

When a prototype passes all tests, then that prototype will be subjected to integration in a fighter platform and further tested. I would assume that it will take SEVERAL THOUSAND HOURS MORE before Kavery is cleared.

 

[sgarg]

The problem for Kavery is that it is made in facilities which cannot produce current Western class engine. There are many issues. You can put up a design but you also need fabrication facilities. I have already said on this forum that building modern Western engine requires very expensive infrastructure.