Kaveri Engine

IndianHawk

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You are right but there are some misconceptions, I don't know but have you seen the ak203 production details, first 100000 guns will not be 100 percent indigenous but after this all the guns will be 100 percent indigenous. Similarly it's the case with k9 but although it doesn't involve full tot. Now coming to rafale I will just attach a screenshot of a presentation given to Rajnath Singh by French's about engine.
Guns and aero engine are different ballgames all together. French want to co develope the engine . The proposed know how transfer might only happen after french have moved on to next gen engine . The fact is this no one will give us hot section tech everything else is available.
 

abhay rajput

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The context of that post is the premise that USA will stop supplies of ge f404/f414 engine.
I think ramifications of it will remain limited to defense deals only.
Commercial deals other co-optation won't be affected by such steps .
I guess you have not been paying attention to the China us trade war, or Malaysian palm oil. Now a days things are not limited in any aspect especially defence .. Alas there are probably Various ways that we can get spares parts as even Iran has been getting them for years , or you can get third party help to make them operational (Russians). But still it will cost us a lot of money..
Trust is something that will take many decades to build if USA stop spare parts for engine's...
 

abhay rajput

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Guns and aero engine are different ballgames all together. French want to co develope the engine . The proposed know how transfer might only happen after french have moved on to next gen engine . The fact is this no one will give us hot section tech everything else is available.
Have you watched the photo..? I am again saying because french have agreed for complete tot for m88 core if they get 114 aircraft order and even then it will follow AK guns type pattern means - after 100-150 engines , only then we would be able to make complete engine. I guess you should just watch the photo again and this is not even classified briefing. Americans have simply refused for core tot.. french are not giving us for free , they want 30 Billion dollars sale and then spare support for 3-4 decades. We can develop engine but it will take 1-2 decades more if provided serious funding. This option will save us time.
 

Shashank Nayak

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Not really..
Consider this scenario...
India makes 83 tejas with f404 or Mwf with f414 and then throws tantrum or other tactic to acquire engine tech.
Who do you think will suffer??
Or are you thinking of strapping Al31 to the tejas fuselage?! :D
Not talking about India throwing tantrums... But, you never know when US will sanction india for kashmir or NRC or CAA or Ram temple or whatever...
 

Bhurki

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Not talking about India throwing tantrums... But, you never know when US will sanction india for kashmir or NRC or CAA or Ram temple or whatever...
In any case... US will have higher leverage, since the entire future line is being thought of based on f404/414..
 

Assassin 2.0

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Have you watched the photo..? I am again saying because french have agreed for complete tot for m88 core if they get 114 aircraft order and even then it will follow AK guns type pattern means - after 100-150 engines , only then we would be able to make complete engine. I guess you should just watch the photo again and this is not even classified briefing.
That photo didn't say anything like France is offering total 100% TOT a engine like M-88 is comparable to American GE-414 in class of technologies it's a 3 fan 6 stage light and compact engine.
Everyone claims big things that we are going to transfer shit but why they will transfer it when they can earn from selling the core to india and easily secure orders for more than 3K engines which we will build in future. And not to forget this complete TOT never works first intellectual property rights (HAL have given official statement that on paper we can totally copy AL-31FP but unlike Chinese we respect ownership rights).

Second challenge does we have enough metallurgy capabilities to create RAW materials for engines even if we get TOT from France just like what we had With AL-31FP and start a manufacturing line in india we will not be able to totally copy blades and other equipment which can match the OEM.

No one is going to transfer anything if this sheet was so easy then their would have been more than 20 developed countries which would have been creating engines.
We will be never be able to develop anything till the time we don't do our technological break through.
M-88 will simply grow old till the time we start understanding it's metallurgy and knowledge to how to produce those blades and equipment.

For example -


HAL Koraput: The engine division is ensconced in the valleys of Koraput region in Orissa. It was set up to manufacture turbojet engines for the MiG 21FL. The first assignment taken up by the Division was to manufacture R11-F2 turbojet engine for MiG 21FL aircraft. Subsequently, the Division took up manufacturing of R11 series engines of MiG 21FL and MiG 21M aircraft, R25 series engines of MiG 21BIS aircraft, R29B engines for MiG27M aircraft and RD33 series engines for MiG29 aircraft. The Division is currently engaged in the overhaul of R25, R29B and RD33 engines. In 2004 the Sukhoi Engine Division was established and it has started manufacturing and subsequently overhauling of AL31FP engines for SU30MKI aircraft. Till date the Division has manufactured nearly 1675 engines and overhauled 7730 engines, which includes R11, R25, R29B, RD33 and AL31FP engines.
 

Assassin 2.0

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Guess what we never achieved the phase 5 main reason because even after getting TOT on ground we don't have metallurgy capabilities in many things.

Same thing will happen with M-88 we will be licensed to indigenous it and produce it but reality will be like first we will be forced to give royalty to OEM and second even after receiving TOT will stick to getting RAW materials from france only.
And then after 40-60 years when rafale will be on its dying leg and france would have stopped manufacturing it we then will start to create it's blades to keep it running .
Just in the same way how we are developing spares for jaguar engine. :)
These are government released documents.

:biggrin2:
 

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fire starter

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Yes Kaveri achieved desired dry thrust but if fell short on wet thrust. I'll have to dig old data for temperature .
I am asking whether the dry thrust is perfect and stable or not bcz last time I heard there was also fluttering in fan section.but since they designed new fan recently I hope they use in it.
 

Bleh

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Yes Kaveri achieved desired dry thrust but if fell short on wet thrust. I'll have to dig old data for temperature .
52kN couldn't have been "enough"... Wasn’t the targeted thrust 60-90kN?

We seeking help from Safran for what! Their own M-88 is 50-75kN, no better than Kaveri (ignorin technical & teething issues).
 
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ezsasa

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Who'll agree to make 80 engines in 10 years ?! All the overheads would result in a very high unit cost.. Either the order size should increase or HAL will be the only contender.
This deal will put to rest the DPSU vs Private sector debate once and for all.

And we will get to know the risk appetite of private defence sector companies in India.
 

IndianHawk

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52kN couldn't have been "enough"... Wasn’t the targeted thrust 60-90kN?

We seeking help from Safran for what! Their own M-88 is 50-75kN, no better than Kaveri (ignorin technical & teething issues).
Original Kaveri specs were to meet f404 that is 50-52 dry to 85-88 wet thrust.

Safran made what was required for rafale. They can make much bigger engine with better thrust too. Look at mirage engine which is 64 dry and 95 afterburner , they did it long time ago.
 

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