Kaveri Engine

[Armand2REP]

Even Russians don't use there own commercial jet even when they have good experience in building jets and all just because reliability issues. So why Chinese who have experience of say 20 years will put life of 300 people in danger. People will not like to travel in unsafe jets?.
Only RR airbus and Boeing have bullet proof reliability in aviation business.

Russians use Russian engines on their commercial jets, the only reason they don't use it on SSJ is because they want it to be EASA certified. Chinese don't care if their engines are EASA certified as they will only ever run them in China or Africa. Chinese don't want to put their fighter pilots in planes with shitty engines either. That is why J-10 only runs on Russian engines and all Chinese aircraft running WS-10A are twin engine.

I don't like Chinese (as a state) but i do think they are hard working people.

What does that have to do with the tea in China?

 

[Armand2REP]

is a high-bypass turbofan being developed to power the Y-20 strategic airlifter, based on the core of the low-bypass turbofan Shenyang WS-10A

That is like making the analogy that the PS-90A is derived from the AL-31F... which it isn't. Commercial airline engines are designed to be far more fuel efficient and run at cooler temps than any military afterburning turbofan, the architecture of them isn't even similar.

 

[Assassin 2.0]

That is like making the analogy that the PS-90A is derived from the AL-31F... which it isn't. Commercial airline engines are designed to be far more fuel efficient and run at cooler temps than any military afterburning turbofan, the architecture of them isn't even similar.

Ask this to American and French experts who used F-101 in CFM-56 and used the same core F-110.

 

[Armand2REP]

Ask this to American and French experts who used F-101 in CFM-56 and used the same core F-110.

The original CFM-56 was a commercial flop because it was too fuel inefficient. It was completely redesigned using the core of CF6-80. The Chinese didn't develop jack squat from F-101 because they never had it or the core from the original CFM-56. They only have CF6-80 cores.

 

[Assassin 2.0]

The original CFM-56 was a commercial flop because it was too fuel inefficient. It was completely redesigned using the core of CF6-80. The Chinese didn't develop jack squat from F-101 because they never had it or the core from the original CFM-56. They only have CF6-80 cores.

I'm tired.
I will come back with more proofs in future.
WS-10 is based on CFM-56.

 

[Armand2REP]

I'm tired.
I will come back with more proofs in future.
WS-10 is based on CFM-56.

Why, because the CCP says so?

 

[Assassin 2.0]

Why, because the CCP says so?

The first CFM56-3-powered Boeing 737s were delivered to Yunnan Airlines and China Southwest Airlines in 1985; Air China received its first aircraft in early 1986. Since then, more than 215 Airbus A320 and A340 aircraft and Boeing Classic and Next-Generation 737s have been delivered. An additional 100 CFM56 engines are currently on order to power 50 aircraft scheduled for delivery over the next five years.
(if you rewind the time to 1981 Chinese US relationship was quite solid at that time. India was in soviet club that's why they sold them CFM-56 with ge core.)
The first CFM-56 which had GE 101 core.
Come on man Chinese WS-10 never used thrust vector which is key part of Russian engines. Then Chinese copy GE thrust vector technology.
Then uses WS - 10 core for WS - 20 ( doesn't matter if fuel efficient or not but they are doing.)

 

[Armand2REP]

The first CFM56-3-powered Boeing 737s were delivered to Yunnan Airlines and China Southwest Airlines in 1985; Air China received its first aircraft in early 1986. Since then, more than 215 Airbus A320 and A340 aircraft and Boeing Classic and Next-Generation 737s have been delivered. An additional 100 CFM56 engines are currently on order to power 50 aircraft scheduled for delivery over the next five years

Those have the CF6-80 cores, not F101 cores.

(if you rewind the time to 1981 Chinese US relationship was quite solid at that time. India was in soviet club that's why they sold them CFM-56 with ge core.)
The first CFM-56 which had GE 101 core.

China never bought that version, as I said it was a commercial flop.

 

[Assassin 2.0]

Those have the CF6-80 cores, not F101 cores.


China never bought that version, as I said it was a commercial flop.

Reports states they bought 2 of them. On 29 March 1982, Aviation Week & Space Technology published an article entitled "China Waiting for CFM-56II Turbofan Exportation?" The report said that China had purchase 2 CFM-56II Turbofan engines to replace the engines on China's
This is a mystery.
Now I'm pretty sure Chinese doesn't use AL-31F copies. ( and seeing there capabilities. AL-31F of Russia itself is not so great engine and is much below western standard. If Chinese were using that they could have created perfect copy but that was not the case with J-10.)
They never used Russian thrust vectors in WS-10 which is the most important feature of Russian engines.

BIGGEST DIFFERENCE BETWEEN BOTH.
AL-3(1 Compressor: 4 fan and 9 HP compressor) stages
Combustors: Annular
Turbine: 2 single-staged turbines
Performance
Maximum thrust:
16,700 lbf (74.5 kN) dry thrust
27,560 lbf (122.58 kN) with afterburner
Overall pressure ratio: 23:1
Bypass ratio: 0.59:1
Turbine inlet temperature: 2,573 °F; 1,412 °C (1,685 K)


WS-10
The WS-10 is a high power, high thrust to weight ratio and low bypass ratio engine with 12 stage structures, including a 3-level fan, nine-level stator, one-level high pressure compressor and one low pressure compressor.


General Electric F110 is Compressor: 2 spool, 3 fan and 9 HP
compressor stage

Internally of WS-10 are different from AL-31. There is now way you can prove that it's based on AL-31. Either we can accept Chinese build one engine on there own which is mysteriously similar to American one. Or copied from CFM56.

If CFM-56 was never in the end hands of Chinese then WS-10 is original Chinese build engine with core compression ratio 3-level fan, nine-level stator, one-level high pressure compressor and one low pressure similar to American F110.


Why from inside F-110 looks like WS-10?
Looks like US stole technology from China

 

[Armand2REP]

Now I'm pretty sure Chinese doesn't use AL-31F copies. ( and seeing there capabilities. AL-31F of Russia itself is not so great engine and is much below western standard. If Chinese were using that they could have created perfect copy but that was not the case with J-10.)
They never used Russian thrust vectors in WS-10 which is the most important feature of Russian engines.

So now we get to the real reason of why you think that. I would direct you to look at it in the opposite direction. Because AL-31F is behind GE in material sciences, it would make better sense that the Chinese could not attempt to copy it because they don't even have Russian level of blade tech, much less Americans. You can clone blades but you cannot clone the material sciences used to make the blades. It is not lack of design materials that is holding Chinese back in turbofans, it is material sciences for those blades. Using the Russian design does not require such high level of blade technology as the American design uses.

 

[Assassin 2.0]

So now we get to the real reason of why you think that. I would direct you to look at it in the opposite direction. Because AL-31F is behind GE in material sciences, it would make better sense that the Chinese could not attempt to copy it because they don't even have Russian level of blade tech, much less Americans. You can clone blades but you cannot clone the material sciences used to make the blades. It is not lack of design materials that is holding Chinese back in turbofans, it is material sciences for those blades. Using the Russian design does not require such high level of blade technology as the American design uses.

This doesn't solve the query of mine how core design of WS-10 is different from AL-31? 3 Level fan vs 4 level.

From inside the nozel pics WS-10 is similar to American F-110.

You cannot deny American technology influence in WS - 10.

 

[Armand2REP]

This doesn't solve the query of mine how core design of WS-10 is different from AL-31? 3 Level fan vs 4 level.

I already know the answer to that. The upgrade to AL-31F that had been sitting on a shelf since the end of the Cold War was to go from four to three stages. Either through espionage or simple brain drain from hired FSU engineers it made its way into the design. That is why it is rated for higher thrust than the old AL-31F. China has hired a small army of ex-Soviet engineers to do their design work.

 

[Assassin 2.0]

I already know the answer to that. The upgrade to AL-31F that had been sitting on a shelf since the end of the Cold War was to go from four to three stages. Either through espionage or simple brain drain from hired FSU engineers it made its way into the design. That is why it is rated for higher thrust than the old AL-31F. China has hired a small army of ex-Soviet engineers to do their design work.

Interesting to find that original Russian updated AL-41F-1S still uses the same Compressor: Axial, 4 stage fan, 9 stage compressor.
So if update was on shelf why Russians themselves didn't used it?

This doesn't make sense mate. Chinese WS-10 doesn't have AL-31 type characteristics not thrust vectors. Under the nozzle design. Uses weird 3 stage fan design.
Either it's based on American technology or it's a new engine.
Let's agree to disagree.

 

[Armand2REP]

Interesting to find that original Russian updated AL-41F-1S still uses the same Compressor: Axial, 4 stage fan, 9 stage compressor.
So if update was on shelf why Russians themselves didn't used it?

This doesn't make sense mate. Chinese WS-10 doesn't have AL-31 type characteristics not thrust vectors. Under the nozzle design. Uses weird 3 stage fan design.
Either it's based on American technology or it's a new engine.
Let's agree to disagree.

The Russians are using the 3 stage in Su-57 now. It is called Izdeliye-30. The 117 was only a stop-gap. They always intended to go to 3 stage LP. As far as thrust vectoring the Chinese already displayed it in the airshow. It is based on Russian technology, it is easy to connect those dots as they are the ones designing it and China is the one hiring their engineers. America's ancient F101 core isn't even worth researching at this point.

 

[Assassin 2.0]

The Russians are using the 3 stage in Su-57 now. It is called Izdeliye-30. The 117 was only a stop-gap. They always intended to go to 3 stage LP. As far as thrust vectoring the Chinese already displayed it in the airshow. It is based on Russian technology, it is easy to connect those dots as they are the ones designing it and China is the one hiring their engineers. America's ancient F101 core isn't even worth researching at this point.

WS-10B is not on Russian technology it's based on US one.

testbed J-10B powered by a WS-10 with thrust vectoring (TVC) was demonstrated at the 2018 China International Aviation & Aerospace Exhibition.[21] The TVC nozzle uses actuator-assisted moving petals, similar in concept to General Electric's axisymmetric vectoring exhaust nozzle (AVEN) and Pratt & Whitney's pitch-yaw balance beam nozzle (PYBBN).[22]

I know izdeliey - 30 and it's production and induction is at least 10 years away it's in development. But Chinese with ex soviet and some failed graduates created 3 Fan version faster than original IP holder.
Dots don't connect at all.

I agree there can be Russian scientists hired for development of WS-15. But not in the case of ws-10.

Meanwhile Russia have banned there jet engine scientists to visit China.

 

[Armand2REP]

WS-10B is not on Russian technology it's based on US one.

I suppose it is possible the Chinese got a look at Porki F-16 engines. They certainly never got the F101 core in the original CFM-56. The F101 is a 2 stage LP and 9 stage HP axial compressor, it has nothing to do with WS-10 of any generation that is 3 stage LP and 7 stage HP axial compressor. It is also possible that the Chinese with Ukrainian assistance figured out their own compression and stage configuration. Did you ever think about that or do you just think they are stupid? There are some things you can't just copy and you have to come up with unique solutions which is why there are unresolved design defects in the engine causing a 40 second throttle delay.

 

[Kchontha]

Is this a Chinese engine thread?!!!!

 

[samsaptaka]

Is this a Chinese engine thread?!!!!

True. Can we please get back on topic ? Pls take chinese engine discussion elsewhere.

 

[Assassin 2.0]

BIG UPDATE.


New Delhi had sought high-powered engines under the Defence Trade and Technology Initiative but US is 'unwilling' to transfer high-end technology

The development is a setback to India’s plan to create a jet engine that could power future indigenous fighter aircraft including the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft, a fifth-generation aircraft. The two sides had set up a Joint Working Group on Jet Engine Technology and had been meeting regularly.

India has been working on the indigenous Kaveri engine but has not been able to get the requisite power. It was pinning its hopes on the “hot engine” technology, considered by the US as the crown jewel in jet engine technology.

Defence sources told ThePrint that the main problem was that the US was unwilling to transfer the high technology that was much needed for the engine programme to take off.

@Wisemarko
Our American friend and strategist any thing to say on this?

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

This was bound to happen sooner or later.