Kaveri Engine

[Kshithij]

Metallurgy is not given I think.

Al31FP does not use any rhenium based alloy. The alloy is mostly of simpler type - 2nd generation DS or 1st generation SCB. I am not sure if Russia gave the metallurgy or not. But I don't understand how india could make AL31F engine if Russia did not give metallurgy. If india made its own engine from AL31F design like Chinese WS10, then India would have named it differently too.

Problem is GEF404 and AL31FP, both have thrust to weight 7.8:1 by calculation, the 100kN Kaveri will weigh around 1280kgees, it won't be an improvement, and IAF will simply dumb the plan of integrating it on LCA.

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Both of these were made in early 1980s before better alloys or manufacturing processes like Single Crystal or powder metallurgy came into use. Once the core is made, it is difficult to modify without having to redesign the core extensively. So, these have likely been kept the same except for minor improvements in technology of blades or turbine like usage of blisks or powder metallurgy. Changing the alloy will require redesign and hence is unlikely to be done.

I am just considering the TET of M88 to be 1800-1850K and deducing that removing the advantage of 3rd gen SCB of 80-100K, the temperature tolerance of 2nd gen DS should be 1700-1750K by incorporating the improvement in cooling and thermal coating.

So, TWR is likely to be above 8 even without rhenium alloys. With increased bypass of 0.5, it is possible to get Kaveri engine of 100kN in 1200-1220kg (10% more than F414, which weighs 1110kg).

The reason why I am against rhenium alloys is that it prevents mass manufacturing of the engine in large quantity by creating supply bottleneck. Without rhenium, it will be easier to mass manufacture engines as per will. The quality will improve with rhenium but quantity will decrease

 

[Kshithij]

I can't tell if this is good news or bad.

BTW, thin film sensors are basically thermocouples and strain gauges which are extremely thin and can measure the strain and temperature of the superalloys facing the extreme conditions in the turbofan powerplant.

The very first project on the pic below.
View attachment 23887

The problem came because Canada refused to cooperate, as expected.

I am sure DRDO will be continuing its own research in its own laboratory without outside assistance.

 

[cyclops]

The problem came because Canada refused to cooperate, as expected.

I am sure DRDO will be continuing its own research in its own laboratory without outside assistance.

Lets hope so.

This tech is friggin ellusive af, more countries can make nukes but not proper turbofans.
Pouring in more money is the only way we are going to get turbofans.

 

[smestarz]

My contribution? Every good discussion needs a mature audience that reads and understands what others say, If the topic is not my speciality, I read and understand whats happening, I prefer doing this way.
Your style seems to be poking your nose into something that you dont understand like Donald. Let me guess your family name is Trump ?

This is a forum which allows even ignorants like you to discuss, but the ignorants if they dont have anything to contribute should just read and understand ..
Get the drift?

And what does your contribution lead to? Does it lead Kaveri engine to reach its required thrust? or does it arrest the falling fighter numbers?

People discuss here like some phd docs in science in tech but nothing happens on ground. LOL

 

[no smoking]

Actually test facilities were major pain from the start of the project, politics of a country is very complicated, huge investment requires an answer to public and opposition, we don't have communist gov where we can declare our PM, PM till life time. Their is a whole record of money which is spend in the project. And investment is required for such facilities. However time and money both have went to establish such facility at HAL.

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Then don't tell your public that engine is almost there when it still gets long way to go.
And don't blame your clients for rejection since your products not ready yet.

 

[no smoking]

We facilities available for producing SCB in the factories, but certification stage is longer so the product will reach factories only when it is certified for production.

Really? Repeating thousands times successfully in lab means very little to factory. Getting patent or certificate is only approval that your procedure of manufacturing is correct theoretically. However, when you are trying to mass produce it in factory, there are too many things need to adjust: some chemical material in your lab are not economically feasible for mass production, you have to find cheap replacement; some equipment will require re-design since the capacity will expand thousand times; you probably only produce maximum kg product in lab each day, you have plenty time to check the quality of each step, in factory, the production is calculated even on tons, so you will require new test equipment; more importantly, the worker need training for new products and they still need time to perfect their skills.

So, no, your facilities is not available for producing SCB in factories until the whole production line is built.

 

[Armand2REP]

Then don't tell your public that engine is almost there when it still gets long way to go.
And don't blame your clients for rejection since your products not ready yet.

Like when China claimed WS-15 would soon power the J-20 when it had in fact blown up two years before?

 

[Steven Rogers]

Really? Repeating thousands times successfully in lab means very little to factory. Getting patent or certificate is only approval that your procedure of manufacturing is correct theoretically. However, when you are trying to mass produce it in factory, there are too many things need to adjust: some chemical material in your lab are not economically feasible for mass production, you have to find cheap replacement; some equipment will require re-design since the capacity will expand thousand times; you probably only produce maximum kg product in lab each day, you have plenty time to check the quality of each step, in factory, the production is calculated even on tons, so you will require new test equipment; more importantly, the worker need training for new products and they still need time to perfect their skills.

So, no, your facilities is not available for producing SCB in factories until the whole production line is built.

So that's the reason why Chinese engines are joke with terrible thrust to weight for a modern engine.

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[Steven Rogers]

Then don't tell your public that engine is almost there when it still gets long way to go.
And don't blame your clients for rejection since your products not ready yet.

We never told the public that engine for 5th gen fighter is almost ready but engine for 4th gen fighter if getting ready. See the diff.

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[Kshithij]

Really? Repeating thousands times successfully in lab means very little to factory. Getting patent or certificate is only approval that your procedure of manufacturing is correct theoretically. However, when you are trying to mass produce it in factory, there are too many things need to adjust: some chemical material in your lab are not economically feasible for mass production, you have to find cheap replacement; some equipment will require re-design since the capacity will expand thousand times; you probably only produce maximum kg product in lab each day, you have plenty time to check the quality of each step, in factory, the production is calculated even on tons, so you will require new test equipment; more importantly, the worker need training for new products and they still need time to perfect their skills.

So, no, your facilities is not available for producing SCB in factories until the whole production line is built.

Producing 4th generation engines without SCB but with all the cooling system available is a possibility. Exotic elements and their alloys used in 5th generation engines to give TWR of 9+ is a different thing. The difference between 4th and 5th generation engine is the usage of rhenium based alloy. The temperature difference between the 3rd gen SC and 2nd gen DS is 80C and that makes the difference of TWR ratio from 8+ to 9.

I don't see any reason why India should not have the ability to make better cooling system in the blades as that is all that takes to get 4th generation engines

 

[no smoking]

So that's the reason why Chinese engines are joke with terrible thrust to weight for a modern engine.

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Of course, comparing to any modern engine from West or Russia, Chinese one is still in a "joke" stage while India's engine is not even there yet.

 

[Steven Rogers]

Of course, comparing to any modern engine from West or Russia, Chinese one is still in a "joke" stage while India's engine is not even there yet.

It would be interesting to know if any of Chinese engines are flat rated variable cycle engines rather some normal Russia engine architecture with terrible thrust to weight.

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[no smoking]

It would be interesting to know if any of Chinese engines are flat rated variable cycle engines rather some normal Russia engine architecture with terrible thrust to weight.


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Well, it is the first time I hear this: fat rated variable cycle engine. Generally, people talk about flat rated engine which is quite old concept, or variable cycle engine which is the revolutionary engine for next generation.


So far, the only country who has the test model of variable cycle engine publicly is USA. As far as I know, the best of everyone else has is something similar to F119. Russia just put their Izdeliye-30 on Su-57. Chinese WS-15 is still with test bed. Europe has no detailed project at all.

Yes, I know, Indians claim Kaveri is a flat rated VARIABLE CYCLE engine. But I doubt it. If Kaveri is such an advanced engine, you will have to ask yourselves why India is asking French to help them on this engine. The best engine France has is 2 generation behind. It is also suspicious when French suggests to replace Kaveri’s Indian core with M88 core. Obviously, they don’t think Kaveri is better designed than old M88.

 

[Steven Rogers]

Well, it is the first time I hear this: fat rated variable cycle engine. Generally, people talk about flat rated engine which is quite old concept, or variable cycle engine which is the revolutionary engine for next generation.


So far, the only country who has the test model of variable cycle engine publicly is USA. As far as I know, the best of everyone else has is something similar to F119. Russia just put their Izdeliye-30 on Su-57. Chinese WS-15 is still with test bed. Europe has no detailed project at all.

Yes, I know, Indians claim Kaveri is a flat rated VARIABLE CYCLE engine. But I doubt it. If Kaveri is such an advanced engine, you will have to ask yourselves why India is asking French to help them on this engine. The best engine France has is 2 generation behind. It is also suspicious when French suggests to replace Kaveri’s Indian core with M88 core. Obviously, they don’t think Kaveri is better designed than old M88.

Anyone has a little bit knowledge of gas turbine, is not replace a core of 90kN thrust engine with 75, it's not possible, the later core is much smaller in size. Flat rate is quite old yet a revolutionary concept which hardly any engines have in the current world scenario, apart from GE engines which rivaled the F119 and the under development ACE, none of the current gen engines accept Kaveri have flat ratings. The redesigned M88 core that means to get fitted on Kaveri is a higher class, that's shows its all the problem of metallurgy and not design, the variable cycle concept is a concept related to the design of engine, the core is tuned up with it but not designed for it. The hot section will be the same variable cycle maintains the supply of air as per requirement, and without it you can forget flat rating, and that's the reason why no Chinese engines have variable cycle. WS15, F119 and izdeliye30 are not variable cycle flat rated engines. ONLY GE have RnD dates back 70s. Kaveri variable cycle dates back 80s. The thrust to weight of French M88 is 8.5, so in that case Chinese engines are probably the first gen engines with thrust to weight lesser than 7.8 if M88 if is 2 gen behind. EU200 already has tw 9:1, so they do have future plans(EU GmBH) and Snecma with new core with 4 gen super alloys, that will alone keep the thrust to weight near 10, now they fall in 5th gen engine. WS15 is no where near operational, not even used on testbed like WS10, comparing it with mature engines is idiotic. And unlike blunt Chinese claims, we have the papers of research on our work. View attachment GTX KAVERI.pdf

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[no smoking]

Anyone has a little bit knowledge of gas turbine, is not replace a core of 90kN thrust engine with 75, it's not possible, the later core is much smaller in size. Flat rate is quite old yet a revolutionary concept which hardly any engines have in the current world scenario, apart from GE engines which rivaled the F119 and the under development ACE, none of the current gen engines accept Kaveri have flat ratings. The redesigned M88 core that means to get fitted on Kaveri is a higher class, that's shows its all the problem of metallurgy and not design, the variable cycle concept is a concept related to the design of engine, the core is tuned up with it but not designed for it. The hot section will be the same variable cycle maintains the supply of air as per requirement, and without it you can forget flat rating, and that's the reason why no Chinese engines have variable cycle. WS15, F119 and izdeliye30 are not variable cycle flat rated engines. ONLY GE have RnD dates back 70s. Kaveri variable cycle dates back 80s. The thrust to weight of French M88 is 8.5, so in that case Chinese engines are probably the first gen engines with thrust to weight lesser than 7.8 if M88 if is 2 gen behind. EU200 already has tw 9:1, so they do have future plans(EU GmBH) and Snecma with new core with 4 gen super alloys, that will alone keep the thrust to weight near 10, now they fall in 5th gen engine. WS15 is no where near operational, not even used on testbed like WS10, comparing it with mature engines is idiotic. And unlike blunt Chinese claims, we have the papers of research on our work. View attachment 23930

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You can put all the BS you can come up with. The simple fact that Indians are asking the French to fix the problem of Kaveri tells me that it is not a variable cycle engine as you claim. And it is very odd that Indian scientists want to make the kaveri a variable cycle engine, which was aimed to power Tejas at the beginning.

 

[Steven Rogers]

You can put all the BS you can come up with. The simple fact that Indians are asking the French to fix the problem of Kaveri tells me that it is not a variable cycle engine as you claim. And it is very odd that Indian scientists want to make the kaveri a variable cycle engine, which was aimed to power Tejas at the beginning.

No one can help your BS who doesn't even know what offset clause are, French aren't fixing the problem, that's a joint work in which the money will be poured by the French for offsets that means Indians have to transfer some technology or manufacture something for French to balance the offsets, India in this case must been handing over the papers on research of variable cycle engine technology which will help in enhancing future M88 for UCAV and fifth gen French fighter. 2ndly their are two types of engines which perform either in cold conditions or in hot conditions effectively. Kaveri is designed to perform at both conditions due to the diversity of Indian climatic condition, generating similar thrust on both conditions requires variable inlets which allow air as per requirement. Check the design of Tejas air intake, it suits Kaveri engine more than GEF404. By the way when your fighter starts flying with over 3tons of payload from the height of over 3000mts in a cold condition with a hot environment designed engine then tell me about your achievements.

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[Kshithij]

You can put all the BS you can come up with. The simple fact that Indians are asking the French to fix the problem of Kaveri tells me that it is not a variable cycle engine as you claim. And it is very odd that Indian scientists want to make the kaveri a variable cycle engine, which was aimed to power Tejas at the beginning.

The "simple fact that Indians are asking the French to fix the problem of Kaveri" is a speculation, not a fact. According to DRDO officials, Kaveri's certification and light envelope delineation will be done by France. The fixing of Kaveri is a media hype. These people even went to the extreme of suggesting M88 core in Kaveri which is really absurd. M88 as of now is 50/75kN engine with bypass of 0.3. To get a 100kN engine with M88 core, it will need to have bypass of 0.7 even with increased TET (in M88 the TET is reduced to increase engine life). Such huge bypass will be unacceptable.

 

[no smoking]

No one can help your BS who doesn't even know what offset clause are, French aren't fixing the problem, that's a joint work in which the money will be poured by the French for offsets that means Indians have to transfer some technology or manufacture something for French to balance the offsets, India in this case must been handing over the papers on research of variable cycle engine technology which will help in enhancing future M88 for UCAV and fifth gen French fighter.

Wow, that is the funniest story I have ever hear. Are you high?

 

[rudresh]

The "simple fact that Indians are asking the French to fix the problem of Kaveri" is a speculation, not a fact. According to DRDO officials, Kaveri's certification and light envelope delineation will be done by France. The fixing of Kaveri is a media hype. These people even went to the extreme of suggesting M88 core in Kaveri which is really absurd. M88 as of now is 50/75kN engine with bypass of 0.3. To get a 100kN engine with M88 core, it will need to have bypass of 0.7 even with increased TET (in M88 the TET is reduced to increase engine life). Such huge bypass will be unacceptable.

No no their M88 4 eco engine gives 90 kn with small afterburner section. If the core is same and afterburner is replaced with a bigger Kaveri afterburner then both thrust and bypass will increase and this might have happened.

If Kaveri engines core i.e kabini if would have been developed then it would have been a big tom tom from DRDO which we were all expecting.

French have stabbed us on our back by developing their next engine using our money and will extract our money for the core on which we will not be having any knowledge or able to develop on our own without french. We will pay for this engine which in my opinion is a Bastard son.

DRDO have fallen on their face for the french trick.Though the engine will be much better than the M88 4 eco will not be indian completely and cannot be called indian child.

I hope we will get the core engine tech and manufacturing tech for the money that we have paid the french.

 

[rudresh]

Wow, that is the funniest story I have ever hear. Are you high?

This may be( I think ) the real truth we will get the engine but the thing is french will either transfer some tech or will buy the quantity worth 1 billion offset quantity material from us. Research papers will not be from us.