Kargil - by a Pakistani General - review

[Neo]

Some facts are:
1.Total number of Mujahideen, at any stage did not exceed approx: 1000.
2. They captured one of the most difficult terrain and in intense cold environment.
3. They completely evaded the Indian intelligence machine and the (made in India) satellites pictures.
4. It was a total surprise to Indians when shepherds brought the news of invasion to Indian military machine, which took some days to realize its importance.
5. Indian chief of staff did not even cancelled his foreign visit.
6. The first search party of 60 Indian soldiers was completely annihilated and none of them returned.
7. The second search party of 259 Indian soldiers was either annihilated or injured.
8. The first Canberra reconnaissance mission ended up in a damaged Canberra plane, which did land in Srinagar and brought to Indians the actual scale of invasion.
9. Two Indian fighter jets - MiG-27 and MiG-21 were shot down.
10. An Indian Air Force Mi-17 helicopter was shot down killing its crew of four.
11. Indian Air force totally stopped all its operations and so did the military helicopters.
12. It took long time for the Indian Air Force to come back again, but only with Mirage 2000 planes dropping bombs from high altitude...and also using laser guided bombs.
13. A barrage of artillery pounding continued for the next 6 weeks, and in the end, even Bofor guns were employed, in order to score, as there did not seem to be any change in Mujahideen positions.
14. There was a huge loss to Indian military. There was a shortage of coffins. About 1700 Indian soldiers died and more than the same number injured.
15. About 50 Bofors bombs were used per Mujahideen amounting to US$50000 per person, apart from the various other ammunition used extensively including artillery shells, rockets from ground launchers and air and infantry attacks.
16. After all this efforts for nearly 2 months, it took Clinton to come to India´s rescue, and Pakistan had to retreat with 370 losses in life.

ACCOMPLISHMENTS GAINED FROM THE CONFLICT

Every conflict or war that starts eventually comes to an end and so did this conflict. Despite the forced withdrawal after PM Sharif rushed to US, Pakistan achieved success till the extent of meeting its strategic and tactical objectives while India's weaknesses were also exposed.

* Kashmir dispute was brought into world focus. It was internationally realized that the dispute needs urgent settlement as it has the potential to spark a major conflict and war between the two countries.

* Pak Army proved that it can give mightier Indian Army a militarily tough time in a low-intensity conflict. This is evident because India was time and again asking US to put pressure on Pakistan to pull back across the LoC.

* Pak Army was able to successfully counter Indian Army's assaults without any backup of PAF while IAF was fully deployed in assault role along LoC.

* At the time of Pakistan's withdrawal, India had managed to retake only 10-11% of the area. This was stated by Pakistani military sources as well as Indian sources who make reference to Col. Brian Cloughley's book called 'A History Of The Pakistan Army'.

* At the time of withdrawal, Indian Army formations had begun to fatigue which was assumed from Indian military transmissions. This was revealed in a briefing by FCNA on 12 January 2003.

* Pakistan's cost of war was very low as compared to India's cost of war.

* Kargil conflict has been a cause of great anguish to India which led to a commission to investigate their failures.

KARGIL CONFLICT

 

[Ray]

Some facts are:
1.Total number of Mujahideen, at any stage did not exceed approx: 1000.
2. They captured one of the most difficult terrain and in intense cold environment.
3. They completely evaded the Indian intelligence machine and the (made in India) satellites pictures.
4. It was a total surprise to Indians when shepherds brought the news of invasion to Indian military machine, which took some days to realize its importance.
5. Indian chief of staff did not even cancelled his foreign visit.
6. The first search party of 60 Indian soldiers was completely annihilated and none of them returned.
7. The second search party of 259 Indian soldiers was either annihilated or injured.
8. The first Canberra reconnaissance mission ended up in a damaged Canberra plane, which did land in Srinagar and brought to Indians the actual scale of invasion.
9. Two Indian fighter jets - MiG-27 and MiG-21 were shot down.
10. An Indian Air Force Mi-17 helicopter was shot down killing its crew of four.
11. Indian Air force totally stopped all its operations and so did the military helicopters.
12. It took long time for the Indian Air Force to come back again, but only with Mirage 2000 planes dropping bombs from high altitude...and also using laser guided bombs.
13. A barrage of artillery pounding continued for the next 6 weeks, and in the end, even Bofor guns were employed, in order to score, as there did not seem to be any change in Mujahideen positions.
14. There was a huge loss to Indian military. There was a shortage of coffins. About 1700 Indian soldiers died and more than the same number injured.
15. About 50 Bofors bombs were used per Mujahideen amounting to US$50000 per person, apart from the various other ammunition used extensively including artillery shells, rockets from ground launchers and air and infantry attacks.
16. After all this efforts for nearly 2 months, it took Clinton to come to India´s rescue, and Pakistan had to retreat with 370 losses in life.

ACCOMPLISHMENTS GAINED FROM THE CONFLICT

Every conflict or war that starts eventually comes to an end and so did this conflict. Despite the forced withdrawal after PM Sharif rushed to US, Pakistan achieved success till the extent of meeting its strategic and tactical objectives while India's weaknesses were also exposed.

* Kashmir dispute was brought into world focus. It was internationally realized that the dispute needs urgent settlement as it has the potential to spark a major conflict and war between the two countries.

* Pak Army proved that it can give mightier Indian Army a militarily tough time in a low-intensity conflict. This is evident because India was time and again asking US to put pressure on Pakistan to pull back across the LoC.

* Pak Army was able to successfully counter Indian Army's assaults without any backup of PAF while IAF was fully deployed in assault role along LoC.

* At the time of Pakistan's withdrawal, India had managed to retake only 10-11% of the area. This was stated by Pakistani military sources as well as Indian sources who make reference to Col. Brian Cloughley's book called 'A History Of The Pakistan Army'.

* At the time of withdrawal, Indian Army formations had begun to fatigue which was assumed from Indian military transmissions. This was revealed in a briefing by FCNA on 12 January 2003.

* Pakistan's cost of war was very low as compared to India's cost of war.

* Kargil conflict has been a cause of great anguish to India which led to a commission to investigate their failures.

KARGIL CONFLICT

Should be moved to the Jokes Thread.

So pathetic that even though I can show the hollowness, actually I have not the inclination or time to handle the trash that is being pandered.

To prove my point just one example:

They captured one of the most difficult terrain and in intense cold environment.

Since when coming and sitting in unheld areas 'ccapturing'?

But for Pakistanis, the very fact that they had crossed the LC, it is an act of courage and capture since they did not soil their pants in the bargain.

A barrage of artillery pounding continued for the next 6 weeks, and in the end, even Bofor guns were employed, in order to score, as there did not seem to be any change in Mujahideen positions.

Mujhs?

The Pak Generals and the world are daft?

NLI and SSG are Mujahideens?

@Neo seems to have become a purveyor of mule puckey.

He is becoming real desperate.

 

[Neo]

To you every valid claim is a joke.

 

[Ray]

To you every valid claim is a joke.

Valid?

Are you joking?

Horse pukey is valid?

I have just given two example of the utter co.ck that you are peddling.

Mujahideens?

You subscribe to that when the world knows better including what Pak generals and Hamid Gul has said?

And Hamid Gul knows more about Mujahideens than all of Pakistan.

Are you blind in your in what some may call stupidity because you disregard what is out even in the Pak media?

did you not read what Hamid Gul said?

 

[Neo]

Valid?

Are you joking?

Horse pukey is valid?

I have just given two example of the utter co.ck that you are peddling.

Continue with your personal attacks, surely as a mod you are above the rules. I am out of this thread.

 

[Ray]

Continue with your personal attacks, surely as a mod you are above the rules. I am out of this thread.

Nothing personal.

Just that you are hijacking the thread with inane idiocy that has been refuted even in the Pak media.

If you don't believe in what your own General and Media states, then what do you believe in?

Since you believe in nothing but merely wasting time with inane nonsense, then one would be forced to believe you are merely a TROLL.

I supported you all the way, but now I find that you are no better than a senseless, juvenile, ill informed troll.

I am not above rules, but I am tired of correcting your half baked falsehood that you are pandering and vitiating the threads and agitating all concerned.

Debate if you must. Sure give the Pakistani standpoint, but not gross ill informed claptrap that only uselessly adds to the bandwidth.

As a Mod, it is my duty to ensure sensible and factual debate and not the rantings of a fevered, depraved mind that is prone to peddling falsehood and half truths if indeed an iota truth is a inbuilt characteristic in one bones.

I assure you that you will not be missed if you quit this thread because we should have a factual debate and not utter crap and trolling.

 

[thethinker]

Hopefully, threads like these which are polluted by conceited Pakis would open eyes of Wagha Candle Worshippers and Aman Ki Asha advocates.

 

[The Fox]

Listen to your countries intelectuals

http://youtu.be/qs9TS_ddeEg

http://youtu.be/V6QFHb5PRVQ

http://youtu.be/VeeXGmC0vaI

and not the likes of this

http://youtu.be/GLhUTARA_F4

 

[The Fox]

First the purpose of Kargil intrution is to occupy the indian land and cut off Seachin from rest of india Did That Succeed No ( Mission Failed )

You captured one of the most diffucult terrain when the army who is guarding is not present (My granny used to say Like a Dog entering a Open house It sounds better in Tamiz )

at the time of Kargil India didnot have any Spy satellite and the Bofors and mirrage bombed your army's ass and they couldn't even retreat
Finally, Clinton didnot help India Infact it was Pakistan who was in need of USA help in stoping Indian Bombardment, Nawaz sheriff ran to America to save yor soldires A$$ and its not the other way around remember India is also a Nuclear state and we do have nukes and we can bomb your entire country to Stone age if you even try of launch the missiles

so before you post your stupid things coming out of your madarassa eductated brain do some research and then post

Some facts are:
1.Total number of Mujahideen, at any stage did not exceed approx: 1000.
2. They captured one of the most difficult terrain and in intense cold environment.
3. They completely evaded the Indian intelligence machine and the (made in India) satellites pictures.
4. It was a total surprise to Indians when shepherds brought the news of invasion to Indian military machine, which took some days to realize its importance.
5. Indian chief of staff did not even cancelled his foreign visit.
6. The first search party of 60 Indian soldiers was completely annihilated and none of them returned.
7. The second search party of 259 Indian soldiers was either annihilated or injured.
8. The first Canberra reconnaissance mission ended up in a damaged Canberra plane, which did land in Srinagar and brought to Indians the actual scale of invasion.
9. Two Indian fighter jets - MiG-27 and MiG-21 were shot down.
10. An Indian Air Force Mi-17 helicopter was shot down killing its crew of four.
11. Indian Air force totally stopped all its operations and so did the military helicopters.
12. It took long time for the Indian Air Force to come back again, but only with Mirage 2000 planes dropping bombs from high altitude...and also using laser guided bombs.
13. A barrage of artillery pounding continued for the next 6 weeks, and in the end, even Bofor guns were employed, in order to score, as there did not seem to be any change in Mujahideen positions.
14. There was a huge loss to Indian military. There was a shortage of coffins. About 1700 Indian soldiers died and more than the same number injured.
15. About 50 Bofors bombs were used per Mujahideen amounting to US$50000 per person, apart from the various other ammunition used extensively including artillery shells, rockets from ground launchers and air and infantry attacks.
16. After all this efforts for nearly 2 months, it took Clinton to come to India´s rescue, and Pakistan had to retreat with 370 losses in life.

ACCOMPLISHMENTS GAINED FROM THE CONFLICT

Every conflict or war that starts eventually comes to an end and so did this conflict. Despite the forced withdrawal after PM Sharif rushed to US, Pakistan achieved success till the extent of meeting its strategic and tactical objectives while India's weaknesses were also exposed.

* Kashmir dispute was brought into world focus. It was internationally realized that the dispute needs urgent settlement as it has the potential to spark a major conflict and war between the two countries.

* Pak Army proved that it can give mightier Indian Army a militarily tough time in a low-intensity conflict. This is evident because India was time and again asking US to put pressure on Pakistan to pull back across the LoC.

* Pak Army was able to successfully counter Indian Army's assaults without any backup of PAF while IAF was fully deployed in assault role along LoC.

* At the time of Pakistan's withdrawal, India had managed to retake only 10-11% of the area. This was stated by Pakistani military sources as well as Indian sources who make reference to Col. Brian Cloughley's book called 'A History Of The Pakistan Army'.

* At the time of withdrawal, Indian Army formations had begun to fatigue which was assumed from Indian military transmissions. This was revealed in a briefing by FCNA on 12 January 2003.

* Pakistan's cost of war was very low as compared to India's cost of war.

* Kargil conflict has been a cause of great anguish to India which led to a commission to investigate their failures.

KARGIL CONFLICT

 

[p2prada]

Well well, generally you guys deny every report coming out of Pakistan but this blog article becomes a gospel truth because it serves your interests?
How pathetic can you be?

Who would you believe, a Pakistani retired general or his Indian counterpart?

Listen what your own Red Gen Krishan Pal has to say about the embarassement.

I hope Indian chest thumping fundamentals would get cleared by his commentry:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PVLd2g5cImA

He was talking about the decision by the govt to not invade PoK, nothing to do with just Kargil.

He meant we lost nearly 600 soldiers just to take back our own land. And that things would have been more justified in a military sense if there was a proper invasion of PoK. Tit for tat.

 

[Neo]

He was talking about the decision by the govt to not invade PoK, nothing to do with just Kargil.

He meant we lost nearly 600 soldiers just to take back our own land. And that things would have been more justified in a military sense if there was a proper invasion of PoK. Tit for tat.

True, he regrets the losses of precious lives in the first place. I posted this footage only to counter the blog of Pakistani rtd general.

The point is that there was no victory for either side, only loss. This is what your general agrees on.

 

[thethinker]

True, he regrets the losses of precious lives in the first place. I posted this footage only to counter the blog of Pakistani rtd general.

The point is that there was no victory for either side, only loss. This is what your general agrees on.

On the bright side, at least Pakistan acknowledged the militants as their own soldiers. In 2010 that is.

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1101119/jsp/frontpage/story_13195550.jsp

Progress ! Perhaps, by 2050, everything about Kargil from your end will be known. @Neo

 

[p2prada]

True, he regrets the losses of precious lives in the first place. I posted this footage only to counter the blog of Pakistani rtd general.

The point is that there was no victory for either side, only loss. This is what your general agrees on.

Strategically, there were some good effects and some bad. We could not take better advantage of the situation and develop a broader consensus against Pakistan on Kashmir. The only significant aspect was international pressure which no longer affected India. All major countries decided to make Kashmir a bilateral issue. So, it was a pretty good diplomatic victory. Militarily, a lot of professionals preferred crossing the LoC, but it wasn't to be. A combination of nuclear tests and the tactical victory over Pakistan, along with a growing economy made India the darling of the world.

Tactically, it was an Indian victory. You can keep Point 5353. In case of a new war, it's not like Pakistan will be able to hold it for very long.

Philosophically, it is as you said.

Now, the above is for India.

As for Pakistan. Strategically, it was a total loss. All the PA objectives were defeated. PA couldn't cut off Siachen. PA couldn't keep the occupied territories. PA lost a lot of soldiers. Kargil was a political fiasco. Pakistan lost all international support over Kashmir. Pakistan lost democracy. Pakistan lost a lot of legitimacy as a state internationally.

Tactically, PA couldn't hold majority of the positions. It was a loss.

Philosophically, it is as you said.

The point is you lost more than we did. And while India managed to recoup the losses, Pakistan hasn't even begun to estimate the amount of loss that has happened over the last 15 years.

Too bad we couldn't launch an operation into PoK. But the diplomatic and political victory India secured has at least put the Kashmir issue completely in our favor. This wouldn't have been possible without Kargil war.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

What you gained, It was the worst defeat that you had since 71 ..

Well well, generally you guys deny every report coming out of Pakistan but this blog article becomes a gospel truth because it serves your interests?
How pathetic can you be?

 

[anupamsurey]

Did I deny anything, or is it your paki brain which thinks that I did a denial act?, i merely stated that pakis have got something to brag about (if it pleases them to hide it under Indian political will to not escalate the situation...remember for last it is not paki bravery which saved the day from them it was a lax on Indian political will to give appropriate punishment to pakis), secondly, it is sore for us becuase we reacted lately and lost many brave souls.

 

[Virendra]

India could and should have used diplomatic channels to raise the issue. Both countries would have saved billions by abandoning it. But she chose for a military option.

No Sir, just clearfying my stance. Militarisation in general is a violation of Shimla.Agreement.

Then one can't lay the blame solely on India either.
Each side would keep saying that Siachen militarization was initiated by the other. Your word against mine...
How much the diplomacy works with Pakistan is not an unknown for Indians. We've tasted that in Kargil.

 

[Virendra]

Some facts are:
1.Total number of Mujahideen, at any stage did not exceed approx: 1000.

There's no credible way of verifying that now.

2. They captured one of the most difficult terrain and in intense cold environment.

They say in Hindi 'Ghar wala ghar nahi to peeche se chup ke ghusne wala chor hota hai' .. only thieves enter a territory deliberately timing to when occupants are away.

3. They completely evaded the Indian intelligence machine and the (made in India) satellites pictures.

Yes there was an Intel failure, not as big as Abbottabad though.

4. It was a total surprise to Indians when shepherds brought the news of invasion to Indian military machine, which took some days to realize its importance.

Both sides used to pull back as a mutual and implicitly understood practice. In light of that a shameless betrayal right after State heads hugging each other and singing peace tunes; does come as a surprise indeed.
When we up our guard, you say India doesn't want peace, it is bullying the region and what not.
When we don't, you sneak in and say 'look we came in and you were found sleeping'.
Isn't all this a bit childish?

6. The first search party of 60 Indian soldiers was completely annihilated and none of them returned.
7. The second search party of 259 Indian soldiers was either annihilated or injured.
8. The first Canberra reconnaissance mission ended up in a damaged Canberra plane, which did land in Srinagar and brought to Indians the actual scale of invasion.
9. Two Indian fighter jets - MiG-27 and MiG-21 were shot down.
10. An Indian Air Force Mi-17 helicopter was shot down killing its crew of four.
11. Indian Air force totally stopped all its operations and so did the military helicopters.
12. It took long time for the Indian Air Force to come back again, but only with Mirage 2000 planes dropping bombs from high altitude...and also using laser guided bombs.
13. A barrage of artillery pounding continued for the next 6 weeks, and in the end, even Bofor guns were employed, in order to score, as there did not seem to be any change in Mujahideen positions.

What else do you expect on such a terrain?

14. There was a huge loss to Indian military. There was a shortage of coffins. About 1700 Indian soldiers died and more than the same number injured.

Check your numbers again, they're 3 times inflated.

16. After all this efforts for nearly 2 months, it took Clinton to come to India´s rescue, and Pakistan had to retreat with 370 losses in life.

India didn't need any saving my friend. We had recovered majority of the territory by then anyway. It was Pakistani Generals who needed an excuse to press Escape and later claim that they had to pull out under Intl. pressure.

ACCOMPLISHMENTS GAINED FROM THE CONFLICT
Every conflict or war that starts eventually comes to an end and so did this conflict. Despite the forced withdrawal after PM Sharif rushed to US, Pakistan achieved success till the extent of meeting its strategic and tactical objectives while India's weaknesses were also exposed.
* Kashmir dispute was brought into world focus. It was internationally realized that the dispute needs urgent settlement as it has the potential to spark a major conflict and war between the two countries.
* Pak Army proved that it can give mightier Indian Army a militarily tough time in a low-intensity conflict. This is evident because India was time and again asking US to put pressure on Pakistan to pull back across the LoC.
* Pak Army was able to successfully counter Indian Army's assaults without any backup of PAF while IAF was fully deployed in assault role along LoC.
* At the time of Pakistan's withdrawal, India had managed to retake only 10-11% of the area. This was stated by Pakistani military sources as well as Indian sources who make reference to Col. Brian Cloughley's book called 'A History Of The Pakistan Army'.
* At the time of withdrawal, Indian Army formations had begun to fatigue which was assumed from Indian military transmissions. This was revealed in a briefing by FCNA on 12 January 2003.

There's one accomplishment left out. That Pakistan globally established its reputation as a back stabbing, double standard State that would say one thing in front and immediately do the other behind your back.

* Pakistan's cost of war was very low as compared to India's cost of war.

The terrain again. We dig into mountain tops and you approach from ground, we'll see how that turns out.

Kargil conflict has been a cause of great anguish to India which led to a commission to investigate their failures.

Most countries are in the habit of studying all their battles/conflicts which is a good retrospective practice, you didn't know that?

Regards,
Virendra

 

[thethinker]

There's no credible way of verifying that now.

They say in Hindi 'Ghar wala ghar nahi to peeche se chup ke ghusne wala chor hota hai' .. only thieves enter a territory deliberately timing to when occupants are away.
Yes there was an Intel failure, not as big as Abbottabad though.

Both sides used to pull back as a mutual and implicitly understood practice. In light of that a shameless betrayal right after State heads hugging each other and singing peace tunes; does come as a surprise indeed.
When we up our guard, you say India doesn't want peace, it is bullying the region and what not.
When we don't, you sneak in and say 'look we came in and you were found sleeping'.
Isn't all this a bit childish?
What else do you expect on such a terrain?
Check your numbers again, they're 3 times inflated.

India didn't need any saving my friend. We had recovered majority of the territory by then anyway. It was Pakistani Generals who needed an excuse to press Escape and later claim that they had to pull out under Intl. pressure.

There's one accomplishment left out. That Pakistan globally established its reputation as a back stabbing, double standard State that would say one thing in front and immediately do the other behind your back.
The terrain again. We dig into mountain tops and you approach from ground, we'll see how that turns out.

Most countries are in the habit of studying all their battles/conflicts which is a good retrospective practice, you didn't know that?

Regards,
Virendra

Just a heads up.

Deception and denial are in the Paki blood.
No matter how many facts are stated, those will either be ignored or obfuscated by such Paki forum members.

However, please do feel free to ask them about important issues like :

1. Stake of Pak army and military in Pakistan private sectors
2. Growth and progress achieved by following the radicals mullahs there
3. Rights and treatment of Shias v/s Sunni, Ahmadis v/s Sunni and minorities v/s Sunni

After that, sit back and enjoy the fun.

 

[sydsnyper]

There is no need to explain this guy in such detail, he is trolling. He knows very well that the paki jihadi blogs he copies these things from are untrue. For example, take a look at the first point, the general who started the war said that it was the paki army that occupied the heights, it has been discussed in paki media, its obvious..... yet he choses to believe that the people who occupied the posts were terrorists.....

He carries an air of being some elite paki intelligentsia, but he is just the oxy-moron in 'paki intelligentsia'.

There's no credible way of verifying that now.

They say in Hindi 'Ghar wala ghar nahi to peeche se chup ke ghusne wala chor hota hai' .. only thieves enter a territory deliberately timing to when occupants are away.
Yes there was an Intel failure, not as big as Abbottabad though.

Both sides used to pull back as a mutual and implicitly understood practice. In light of that a shameless betrayal right after State heads hugging each other and singing peace tunes; does come as a surprise indeed.
When we up our guard, you say India doesn't want peace, it is bullying the region and what not.
When we don't, you sneak in and say 'look we came in and you were found sleeping'.
Isn't all this a bit childish?
What else do you expect on such a terrain?
Check your numbers again, they're 3 times inflated.

India didn't need any saving my friend. We had recovered majority of the territory by then anyway. It was Pakistani Generals who needed an excuse to press Escape and later claim that they had to pull out under Intl. pressure.

There's one accomplishment left out. That Pakistan globally established its reputation as a back stabbing, double standard State that would say one thing in front and immediately do the other behind your back.
The terrain again. We dig into mountain tops and you approach from ground, we'll see how that turns out.

Most countries are in the habit of studying all their battles/conflicts which is a good retrospective practice, you didn't know that?

Regards,
Virendra