Just Who Is Not A Kafir?

DaRk WaVe

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Na ehh k gal hoe, Just because a few people consider Shia's non Muslims this in no way means you generalize whole of Pakistan, though those fews can a big problem as well, if they started declaring each other non muslim this way, soon there will be non Muslim left on the planet
 

Zaki

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Main Reason i think being proper understanding of religion where it can be hijacked by the people for their narrow gains as happened with Ahmadis during Zulfikar butto's rule and with shia during zia rule.and once it got ingrained these thing became part of religion with confused people and are exploding like malignant tumor in present times.
keep Ahmedis away ajtr, they have nothing to do with us, its a simple logic but some people aren't able to understand and keep trying to stand them in the same rows of Muslims
 

Iamanidiot

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ajtr are you pakistani in disguise as indian one of those wanna be indians
 

Zaki

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Na ehh k gal hoe, Just because a few people consider Shia's non Muslims this in no way means you generalize whole of Pakistan, though those fews can a big problem as well, if they started declaring each other non muslim this way, soon there will be non Muslim left on the planet
hahaha, well its actually a large population. But you are right, i myself consider themself as Muslim as long as they are not crossing their limits
 

DaRk WaVe

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keep Ahmedis away ajtr, they have nothing to do with us, its a simple logic but some people aren't able to understand and keep trying to stand them in the same rows of Muslims
Government & pseudos are no one to declare any one non muslim & enforce stupidity in the form of Ordinance XX , Period!!!

hahaha, well its actually a large population. But you are right, i myself consider themself as Muslim as long as they are not crossing their limits
Na i never ever heard of any famous mullahs preaching that Shia's are non muslims, though there are no doubt some Taliban Sympathizers who love Shia's in a different way...
 

thakur_ritesh

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ejazr,

thanks a lot for the detailed reply, much appreciated. please kindly reply a few more queries if you can. thanks in advance.

when the taliban were ruling afghanistan then what was their take on this, as in did they consider everyone excluding wahabis/sunnis as kafir (assuming most of them are wahabis/sunnis if i am not wrong) and how was their way of dealing with shias, ahmedis, etc different to what they meted out to their wahabi/sunni counterparts?

let us take the extreme example and say tomorrow sometime in the future the ttp were to rule pakistan, would they be the exact same to their counter parts in afghanistan, the taliban? how different are they ideologically?

why and when did the concept of kafir originate, and what was the exact purpose of having it?

why do the moderates call these extremists as non-muslims? is it a way of distancing with their violent path?

EmO GiRl,

i was specifically talking about the hardliners and their followers/sympathizers.
 

Iamanidiot

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there were some khalsa warriors aka moghul warriors aka think thanks and some who pretend to be indians thats why
 

Zaki

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Government & pseudos are no one to declare any one non muslim & enforce stupidity in the form of Ordinance XX , Period!!!
hehehe but it is also not a rocket science to understand their belief. You have a minimum criteria to quality for something. If somebody does not qualify the minimum criteria they are disqualified, this rule applies in all rules of life. Ahmedis never qualified for the minimum criteria to become a muslim so they were never in the boundaries of Islam anyway

This rule does not apply for other sects in my opinion as all of the other sects fall in the minimum criteria

PS: At no way i am justifying Hudood ordinances or ordinance XX
 

DaRk WaVe

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hehehe but it is also not a rocket science to understand their belief. You have a minimum criteria to quality for something. If somebody does not qualify the minimum criteria they are disqualified, this rule applies in all rules of life. Ahmedis never qualified for the minimum criteria to become a muslim so they were never in the boundaries of Islam anyway
le oee gal fir kar dete, The divine absurdity that people believe in is in no way a minimum criteria to strangle a whole community that has worked so much for the creation of the nation you so called Real Muslims live in, on one hand there you people don't like yourselves to be declared Kafir but on the other same people define minimum criteria to be a Muslim, what kind of BS is that? The state & people are in no way eligible to define criteria & declare a whole community non Muslim. Its pretty sad that religious feelings are deeply rooted in us in such a way that rulers took full advantage of this sensitivity to score points for themselves, you think Quaid was not a Muslim when he refused tp push out Ahmadis from Muslim League & declare them non Muslims? Someone has rightly said 'Religion is regarded by common people as true & by rulers as useful'

This rule does not apply for other sects in my opinion as all of the other sects fall in the minimum criteria
my foot

PS: At no way i am justifying Hudood ordinances or ordinance XX
then still double standards ....
 

Zaki

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le oee gal fir kar dete, The divine absurdity that people believe in is in no way a minimum criteria to strangle a whole community that has worked so much for the creation of the nation you so called Real Muslims live in, on one hand there you people don't like yourselves to be declared Kafir but on the other same people define minimum criteria to be a Muslim, what kind of BS is that? The state & people are in no way eligible to define criteria & declare a whole community non Muslim. Its pretty sad that religious feelings are deeply rooted in us in such a way that rulers took full advantage of this sensitivity to score points for themselves, you think Quaid was not a Muslim when he refused tp push out Ahmadis from Muslim League & declare them non Muslims? Someone has rightly said 'Religion is regarded by common people as true & by rulers as useful'



my foot


then still double standards ....
Your post did not make sense to me cause i nowhere said whatever you have posted above :(
I ain't denying Ahmedi's struggle for the independance of Pakistan. Be it........ but thats entirely a different topic. Like the constitution of Pakistan, we have constitution fo Islam which declares things Legal or illegal. In this case its illegal
Ahemdis are just as perfect Pakistanis as i am and should be treated equally blah blah - thats not i am saying. I no wherever even said anything about Quaid-e-Azam blah blah

I am going north, you are heading towards south :(
 

DaRk WaVe

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I replied to these lines.......

You have a minimum criteria to quality for something. If somebody does not qualify the minimum criteria they are disqualified, this rule applies in all rules of life. Ahmedis never qualified for the minimum criteria to become a muslim so they were never in the boundaries of Islam anyway
 

Zaki

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I replied to these lines.......
and i adhere to my words, If Qur'an said There is no Prophet after Muhammad S.A.W.W - Period!
So who the hell is Ghulam Ahmedi Qadiyani?

Minimum criteria not fullfilled :) - Rejected

We keep it Pakistan-focussed only EmO Jee, lets keep religion aside, you always have tough time understanding religious jurisprudence
 
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ajtr

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keep Ahmedis away ajtr, they have nothing to do with us, its a simple logic but some people aren't able to understand and keep trying to stand them in the same rows of Muslims
Why should Ahamdi be kept away???Today its Ahmadi tomorrow it will be some other sect. there is no end to it
 

DaRk WaVe

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and i adhere to my words, If Qur'an said There is no Prophet after Muhammad S.A.W.W - Period!
So who the hell is Ghulam Ahmedi Qadiyani?

Minimum criteria not fullfilled :) - Rejected

Errrrrrr, Never mind, I know i lack ability to convince people...

I am thinking about forming my own sect, Damn i can earn a lot of money & fame out of it, Wanna join? :emot159:
 

Zaki

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Errrrrrr, Never mind, I know i lack ability to convince people...

I am thinking about forming my own sect, Damn i can earn a lot of money & fame out of it, Wanna join? :emot159:
Yes i will be your first follower if your aim is to re-unite everybody :)
Hukam karain Janab
 

ejazr

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ejazr,
when the taliban were ruling afghanistan then what was their take on this, as in did they consider everyone excluding wahabis/sunnis as kafir (assuming most of them are wahabis/sunnis if i am not wrong) and how was their way of dealing with shias, ahmedis, etc different to what they meted out to their wahabi/sunni counterparts?
Well I personally think that understanding this from a politcal rather than religious makes more sense. In other words, anyone that can challenge my politcal power, declare them Kafir. So the shias in Afghanistan i.e. theHazaras were targetted, so were the Sunni Tajiks and Uzbeks. There are no Ahmedis in Afghanistan but one of the reasons to target Ahmedis was that they are closet Zionists and spies of the US e.t.c. in Pakistan. Again a political angle mainly with the religious angle acting only as a justification. Similarly Shias in Pakistan are on average better off in Pakistan with most ofthem educated and in the beuracracy. A shortcut of disempowering the shias politcally or otherwise is to declare them Kafir and ready to be killed. If you read their (extermists anti-shia groups) literature, they actually talk about conspiracy theories of how pakistani shias are in cahoots with the Americans to destroy Pakistan. Again a politcal angle. It doesn't help that other than Nawaz Sharif and Zia most of the rulers/PMs that Pakistan had were shias.

Infact, you will be surprised that Afghan Hindus and Sikhs actually had a better time under the Taliban according to a recent Reuters report I was reading. Because they tended to follow the requirements of granting protection to non-muslims in their land under their control.

let us take the extreme example and say tomorrow sometime in the future the ttp were to rule pakistan, would they be the exact same to their counter parts in afghanistan, the taliban? how different are they ideologically?
Ideologically TTP are very different from Afghan Taliban. Operationally they are quite different as well. IF you go by the reports, TTP leadership is heavily dominated byPunjabi extremists and AQ Arabs, the foot soldiers may be Pashtuns. However, the Afghan Taliban are Pashtoons from top to bottom. And atleast less extremist than TTP. Espicially if you look at the suicide attacks.

TTP is way more dangerous ideologically than Afghan Taliban.

why and when did the concept of kafir originate, and what was the exact purpose of having it?

why do the moderates call these extremists as non-muslims? is it a way of distancing with their violent path?
Kafir or Kufr means rejector (of faith), it does not apply to all non-muslims first of all. And even if someone is a Kafir, it doesnt mean they should be killed e.t.c.

But I assume that you are more interested in the concept of Takfeer i.e. declaring other muslims Kafir.

There are many theories but speaking in the current scenario, it was Maududi and Syed Qutb who came up with the idea of declaring people particularly Rulers as Kafirs and hence liable fordeath. Later Zawahiri and other extremists extended it to the people as well. Thereis a very interesting documentary "The Power of Nightmares" that woudl be helpful and I highly recommend people to watch it.
Common-history-of-the-neo-con-and-the-Islamists-movement-BBC-Documentary

On your second question, yes, I think the average muslim is so disgusted by these actions that there is a denialbut more so a rejection that such an action can not be of a muslim and even if was born as a muslim, he has thrown himself out of the fold of Islam by committing such an act.
 
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Zaki

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Why should Ahamdi be kept away???Today its Ahmadi tomorrow it will be some other sect. there is no end to it
hehehe, because they are never among us. The minimum criteria to become Muslim is

1) One and only one God
2) Believe in All Prophets
3) Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) is the Last Messenger
4) Believe in all Holy Books of God

Thats a very basic criteria
 

DaRk WaVe

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Yes i will be your first follower if your aim is to re-unite everybody :)
Hukam karain Janab
Sects are always to divide people, not unite, which sect on the face of the planet has preached homogeneity & pluralism
These sects & religious people use divinity to gain their interests,Just as i am thinking about it, these sect thingy will go on forever there nothing you can do nothing to stop it, better learn to live with it & stop preaching hate for different sects & separate religion from state affairs... har cheez ke had hote ha
 
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