J20 Shock to PLAAF

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asianobserve

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I consider myself quite reasonable , actually. All you have to do is provide evidence for your assertions. All you can provide is "they have a similar shape".

Then Boeing and Sukhoi deny it, but the F15 and the Su27 must be some how related with "secret design transfers". Or the Tornado and the JH7. They "have the same shape ", right?

The J20 and the Mig1.44 prototype share the same canard delta configuration. Beyond that, their aerodynamic profiles are so different only a fanboy would suggest that one is a copy or an edit of the other.

Was thete ever an insinuation that McDonnel Douglas sold F-15's design to Sukhoi? The absurdity of it would make you puke.

But for Russia which is in despetate need of money, leverage with China coupled with the desire to tie down US military assets in Asia, the idea of giving up the design of Mig 1.44 that it will not use, to China makes a lot of sense.

Besides, the above article was posted in Reuters, a reputable private media company, it does sounds legitimate.
 

badguy2000

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Report: Russia sold China tech for J-20

For awhile there, everybody in the defense game had a theory about what role Russia may have played in China's development of the J-20. Did Moscow keep completely out of it to focus on its own T-50 development? Did China ... ah ... "borrow" ... plans or technologies from the Russians, they way it has from the United States? Or was this a straight-up business relationship, like back in the bad old days? And if so, did Russia initiate it, or did China?

According to a report by the Reuters news service, picked up by AvWeek, Russia may be pulsing out technologies and parts to China as part of a deliberate strategy to increase the number of fighters that could challenge the United States. And as the originator of key components in the J-20, Russia keeps an edge by knowing exactly what the fighter's capabilities and weaknesses are.


Here's how Reuters' Thomas Grove broke it down, from Moscow:

Experts say the fifth-generation J-20 fighter, which made its maiden flight in January during a visit of the U.S. defense secretary, could have its origins in the Mikoyan 1.44 stealth jet that never made it to the production line. A highly-placed source close to Russia’s defense industry said the similarities suggested Mikoyan technology had been passed into the hands of Chinese arms designers.

“It looks like they got access … to documents relating to the Mikoyan—the aircraft that the Ministry of Defense skipped over in its tender to create a stealth fighter,” he said, speaking on condition of anonymity. He said it was not clear whether such a transfer of technology had been legal. Analysts say Russia’s assistance to the Chinese may help Moscow keep tabs on the rising military power’s defense capabilities of its eastern neighbor.

Independent analyst Adil Mukashev, who specializes in ties between Russia and China, suggested there had been a financial transaction. “China bought the technology for parts, including the tail of the Mikoyan, for money,” he said.

Russia and China deny it, but the story is plausible, given that the Russians apparently never could make the Mikoyan 1.44 work as a challenger for the F-22. (To be fair, it was probably never meant to become a production aircraft.) If China asked, or Russia offered, to hand over their research and spares in exchange for cash on the barrelhead, it would've been a very tempting deal for both sides. Russia gets a payday and makes life a little scarier for the United States; China's aerospace industry gets another jump-start, and it makes life a little scarier for the United States.

But it doesn't answer key questions about the J-20, including whether China can build enough of its own high-quality jet engines for a full production run of the new stealthy fighters. And this story, if true, actually could provide another arrow in the quivers of J-20 skeptics: The Russians clearly never got the Mikoyan 1.44 where they wanted it. In fact, MiG entered it in the PAK FA competition, but as we were reminded again this week, Russian authorities opted for Sukhoi's T-50 instead. (Let's pause here to imagine Russian defense industry officials interjecting to talk about the "valuable lessons" they learned from the losing bid.) So if there were flaws in the 1.44's design, they may have been passed down to the J-20, and maybe it isn't an invincible expression of pure airpower after all.

Then again, the J-20 also clearly isn't a carbon copy of the 1.44. So if there were original imperfections, the Chinese may have buffed them out.


https://www.military.com/dodbuzz/2011/08/18/report-russia-sold-china-tech-for-j-20
before Rus-sky fix their own stealth bird, they are not in the position to place "copy" label on J20......hehe.


well, here is a video,the backbone of superpower(大国重器 S2).

it tells what is the tech base(material,machining tech......) for all kinds of enginneering wonders and how they are developed.

it can open your eyes.

S202, for aero-space industry
https://www.bilibili.com/video/av20127230/index_2.html

S201,for infrastructure engineering industry
https://www.bilibili.com/video/av20127230/index_1.html
 
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asianobserve

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before Rus-sky fix their own stealth bird, they are not in the position to place "copy" label on J20......hehe.
Mig 1.44 wasn't actually a stealth design. If it proceeded to production it would have been dubbed as 4.5th gen.
 

badguy2000

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Mig 1.44 wasn't actually a stealth design. If it proceeded to production it would have been dubbed as 4.5th gen.
europeans and rus-sky both underestimated the importance of stealth and both clicked the wrong branch(unstealth) of the tech-tree ,when they developed the their 5G bird during 1980s.

thus,their planed 5G birds(EF2000,refale and Mig 1.44) all became outdated suddenly when yankees worked out F22.

wrongly-clicking-techtree is always what tech-pioneers have to risk,when nobody is ahead of them.

To CHinese luck, they needed not risk it until J20 was worked out ,because they could acquire lessons from pioneers (Yankees/europeans/russian) .

But now,nobody know what the 6G bird is like...so,CHina has to risk it too.
 
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Armand2REP

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To CHinese luck, they needed not risk it until J20 was worked out ,because they could acquire lessons from pioneers (Yankees/europeans/russian) .
Actually J-20 took a big risk. They decided to hire Russian designers of the MiG 1.44, a fighter designed in the 80s for the MFI (Multi-functional Frontline Fighter). Once the F-22 programme became known to the Russians they quickly ditched the competition and began work on the PAK FA. They knew that such a dated design would not be able to compete with the F-22 or the Eurocanards. China picked up Russian waste and copy pasted dimensions of US stealth features on a platform not designed for it, and then developed an engine which blew up killing several of its engineers. So what you have left is an underpowered flying brick that isn't stealthy in any aspect except the front.
 
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nimo_cn

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From Reuters:

“It looks like they got access … to documents relating to the Mikoyan—the aircraft that the Ministry of Defense skipped over in its tender to create a stealth fighter,” he said, speaking on condition of anonymity.

He said it was not clear whether such a transfer of technology had been legal. Analysts say Russia’s assistance to the Chinese may help Moscow keep tabs on the rising military power’s defense capabilities of its eastern neighbor.

Independent analyst Adil Mukashev, who specializes in ties between Russia and China, suggested there had been a financial transaction.

“China bought the technology for parts, including the tail of the Mikoyan, for money,” he said.

Considering Russia is already providing engines for the J-20, this seems pretty plausible that Moscow gave China access to its losing fifth-gen design (as you all know, the Kremlin chose the Sukhoi T-50 PAK FA as its stealth fighter over the MiG). I'm still curious as to what's inside the J-20 with regards to its sensors and avionics and EW tools.


https://www.military.com/defensetech/2011/08/19/did-the-j-20-come-from-this-mig
the article is full of phrases like "it looks like...", "it seems pretty plausible", it looks like that your definition for credible source seems pretty loose.
 

badguy2000

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Actually J-20 took a big risk. They decided to hire Russian designers of the MiG 1.44, a fighter designed in the 80s for the MFI (Multi-functional Frontline Fighter). Once the F-22 programme became known to the Russians they quickly ditched the competition and began work on the PAK FA. They knew that such a dated design would not be able to compete with the F-22 or the Eurocanards. China picked up Russian waste and copy pasted dimensions of US stealth features on a platform not designed for it, and then developed an engine which blew up killing several of its engineers. So what you have left is an underpowered flying brick that isn't stealthy in any aspect except the front.
hi,guy,

J20 not only does copy mig1.44,but also ef2000/refale...

in fact ,it also copys jas39/J10/J9...etc.

the list is soo long. as we see, they all have canards..

and J20 also copy Boeing 737,as we see, they all have wings.

sometimes, I also think J20 is a copy of Startscream ,to some extent,because both have engines and can fly.
 
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rockdog

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hi,guy,

J20 not only does copy mig1.44,but also ef2000/refale...

in fact ,it also copys jas39/J10/J9...etc.

the list is soo long. as we see, they all have canards..

and J20 also copy Boeing 737,as we see, they all have wings.

sometimes, I also think J20 is a copy of Startscream ,to some extent,because both have engines and can fly.
I was wondering when someone claiming the J20 is a clone of mig1.44, why they didn't also claim the J31 is a copy of F35 just make a small change: adding another turbo engine to the ass...
 

undeadmyrmidon

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hi,guy,

J20 not only does copy mig1.44,but also ef2000/refale...

in fact ,it also copys jas39/J10/J9...etc.

the list is soo long. as we see, they all have canards..

and J20 also copy Boeing 737,as we see, they all have wings.

sometimes, I also think J20 is a copy of Startscream ,to some extent,because both have engines and can fly.
You are switching between accounts to like your own comments. That's like sucking your own dick man!

 

Adioz

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Evade incoming missiles? I suspect that you're being deliberately naive here. An air-to-air missile is infinitely more aerodynamically capable than any fighter aircraft. i wonder why F15's, F16's, Rafales and Eurofighter pilots lack the skill to just "evade incoming missiles" when F22's and F35's shoot them down at ratio's of 10+ to 1. Maybe their RWR don't work either?
WTF do you mean? That missiles cannot be evaded? More aerodynamic than a fighter? Just becuase a missile pulls more Gs, does not make it more aerodynamic dude.
Low altitude approaches are well established combat maneuvers.
True. And so are missile evasion maneuvers.
that does not invalidate low altitude approaches in air-to-air combat. And does not guarantee that a maneuvering target will escape BVR missiles. The is still a significantly large NEZ even if the missile is launched at low altitude at subsonic speed.
  • True. It does not invalidate low-altitude approaches.
  • Does not guarantee that a maneuvering target will evade the missile, but makes it easier for a target to evade the missile.
  • Low altitude and low launch speeds not only shorten the NEZ, they make it more difficult for the missile to maneuver while climbing, and it gives the target favorable potential energy. All in all, it is easy enough for an experienced pilot to dodge a single missile launched from such a disadvantageous position.
I don't really understand how a scenario of a pair of J20's downing more than half a dozen 4th and 4.5 gen fighters as well as the AEW&C aircraft providing over-watch does not validate the J20's air-to-air capabilities.
How many BVRAAM does one J-20 carry? My estimate says four missiles per plane. So with just eight missiles, J-20 managed to kill over half a dozen (seven?) fighters and an AEW&CS?
Meaning that not even a single fighter in OPFOR could dodge the missiles? Either the exercise was scripted, or the pilots are all rookies in PLAAF (unlikely).

Either way, these are just rumors regarding the air-force exercises held last year. There is no official testimony or statement to verify these RUMORS.
Sounds plausible.

A 10:1 ratio in stealth vs 4.5(3.5) generation fighters is actually quite conservative if we look at the results of engagements at Red Flag:

https://theaviationist.com/2017/02/...nce-with-a-201-kill-ratio-u-s-air-force-says/
The same article that you quote here also says these things:-
Whereas the air superiority scenario has not been disclosed (therefore, the above mentioned kill ratio should be taken with a grain of salt, as always when it deals with mock air-to-air engagements…),
 

SexyChineseLady

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Multiple stealth fighter programs at once.

Now how many countries can do this? Sorry but all this complaining about China is just sour grapes by less capable nations or races.

http://www.ecns.cn/m/military/2018/02-26/293550.shtml

China's air force has marked a great upgrade in its ability to confront threats and even respond first, aviation experts said, as the country's latest stealth jet fighter, the J-20, has joined combat regiments of the People's Liberation Army (PLA).


"The J-20 has changed the situation where non-stealth fighter jets had to confront stealth fighter jets," said Wang, adding the move shows the air force's support for maintaining China's air security.

. . .

In a statement released on the official Weibo account of the PLA Air Force on February 9, air force spokesperson Shen Jinke said the J-20, China's most advanced stealth fighter jet, has now joined combat troops of the air force.

Wang said that China, with out supports from other Western countries, has overcome great difficulties in developing the J-20, which will improve the air force's strategic combat capability in the air.

Meanwhile, a recent video from the Shenyang Aircraft Corporation attached to the Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC) showed a factory where the company's fourth-generation fighter the FC-31 is being built, Weihutang, a column affiliated with China Central Television (CCTV), reported on Sunday.

FC-31 is still under development and is expected to be attached to the PLA navy, CCTV reported.

The FC-31 utilizes mature technologies and follows advances made during the construction of the J-15. The FC-31 will cost less to make which could lower the cost of building a carrier battle group, Song Zongping, a military expert and TV commentator, told the Global Times on Sunday.
 

Aghore_King

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Multiple stealth fighter programs at once.

Now how many countries can do this? Sorry but all this complaining about China is just sour grapes by less capable nations or races.

http://www.ecns.cn/m/military/2018/02-26/293550.shtml
Yeah...so much powerful chinki han race that got its ass handed in a matter of weeks to puny imperial Japanese army:pound::laugh::rofl:
The same japanese army that got wrecked by India in battle of imphal and kohima
 

SexyChineseLady

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Yeah...so much powerful chinki han race that got its ass handed in a matter of weeks to puny imperial Japanese army:pound::laugh::rofl:
The same japanese army that got wrecked by India in battle of imphal and kohima
That is a very silly and stupid thing to say.

China is one of the Five Permanent UN Security Council members because of the Chinese contribution to WWII. China fought under her own flag.

The Union Jack flew at Imphal and Kohima. That is why Great Britain is a peer of China on the P5.

The P5 was awarded to nations considered the victors of WWII. India was not considered a victor.
 

Aghore_King

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That is a very silly and stupid thing to say.

China is one of the Five Permanent UN Security Council members because of the Chinese contribution to WWII. China fought under her own flag.

The Union Jack flew at Imphal and Kohima. That is why Great Britain is a peer of China on the P5.

The P5 was awarded to nations considered the victors of WWII. India was not considered a victor.
These are real facts, infact what's stupid and silly is you racial superiority BS.
Union jack or not it was the Indian soldiers who slaughtered one lac imperial japanese soldiers, same soldiers who effectively occupied China during the world war...
 

SexyChineseLady

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These are real facts, infact what's stupid and silly is you racial superiority BS.
Union jack or not it was the Indian soldiers who slaughtered one lac imperial japanese soldiers, same soldiers who effectively occupied China during the world war...
The real facts are :

1) China is one of the victors of WWII with UN P5 seat,

2) Kohima and Imphal were two battles in a raid with a very limited amount of Japanese troops and long supply lines; Japan-China war was total warfare,

3) Both China and Japan are far, far, far wealthier and developed than India; and so are South Korea and Taiwan,

4) China has two stealth fighter programs with pictures of flying aircraft and all I hear are sour grape comments instead of matching pictures of Indian steath aircraft
 

Aghore_King

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The real facts are :

1) China is one of the victors of WWII with UN P5 seat,

2) Kohima and Imphal were two battles in a raid with a very limited amount of Japanese troops and long supply lines; Japan-China war was total warfare,

3) Both China and Japan are far, far, far wealthier and developed than India; and so are South Korea and Taiwan,

4) China has two stealth fighter programs with pictures of flying aircraft and all I hear are sour grape comments instead of matching pictures of Indian steath aircraft
These are also the real facts:
1.) China got its ass owned to the Japanese for whole of the world war 2.
2.) Kohima and Imphal were the biggest defeat of japanese forces not only in ww2 but in whole of Japanese history, if it was the total warfare the result would have been the same.
3.) Can't deny that because we opened our economy much much later than all of the mentioned countries ,still we will catch up.
4.)Its a fact that Chinese aircrafts are rip offs of russian and Israeli ones from J-10 to J 20 and J 31 ,meanwhile we started out from the scratch
and bdw an eoi has been issued for manufacturing amca by 2021.
 

SexyChineseLady

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Sorry your list is sour grapes comments not facts.

1) the UN P5 position is real; the “ass owned” comment is just your opinion,

2) Kohima and Imphal are battles in WWII with the Japanese having only four divisions and suffer around 60,000 casualties; the Japanese had millions of troops in China and suffered 2,000,000 casualties there; thus P5 for China and nothing for India who fought under Union Jack and were main reason for the greatest defeat in British history when 80,000 mostly Indian troops surrendered,

3) “Opening up later” is a pretty stupid excuse for being poorer; why not open up earlier? Anyways not a fact but a lame excuse; the fact is India is far poorer than China and the whole region that India sits in is far poorer than East Asia,

4) nothing but sour grapes comments about how Indian started out from “scratch” when it is China that is embargoed while India always had help from both Russia and the West; the fact is China has two stealth programs and we have photos to prove it, Indians have no flying stealth aircraft and is piggybacking on Russia’s SU-57
 

Aghore_King

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Sorry your list is sour grapes comments not facts.

1) the UN P5 position is real; the “ass owned” comment is just your opinion,

2) Kohima and Imphal are battles in WWII with the Japanese having only four divisions and suffer around 60,000 casualties; the Japanese had millions of troops in China and suffered 2,000,000 casualties there; thus P5 for China and nothing for India who fought under Union Jack and were main reason for the greatest defeat in British history when 80,000 mostly Indian troops surrendered,

3) “Opening up later” is a pretty stupid excuse for being poorer; why not open up earlier? Anyways not a fact but a lame excuse; the fact is India is far poorer than China and the whole region that India sits in is far poorer than East Asia,

4) nothing but sour grapes comments about how Indian started out from “scratch” when it is China that is embargoed while India always had help from both Russia and the West; the fact is China has two stealth programs and we have photos to prove it, Indians have no flying stealth aircraft and is piggybacking on Russia’s SU-57
I feel sorry for hopeless Chinkie trolls, your own "sour grapes" comment suits perfectly on you...
1.) UN P5 position doesn't matters, what matters here is you got slaughtered in millions by Japanese.
2.)What about British flag? the troops who fought were all indians and unlike chinese who were just slaughtered like cattle by the japanese, indian troops gave japanese their greatest defeat in history and infact contributed significantly to the allied victory in ww 2.What china did, it just got raped by japs.
3.) Don't forget till the 80s china was dirt poor when compared to india, it was only after the 90s when they left us behind.
4.) Oh please don't embarrass yourself ...this is not censored china forum.. here everybody know how you shamelessly copies whole SU series with help from russians , how china copied israeli lavi and and shamelessly stole design of Mig 1.44...
 
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