J-21/J-31 Chinese 5th Generation Stealth Fighter

[p2prada]

i dont think India would buy F35.you already have T50,AMCA,MRCA.will u buy them all?even if you buy F35,probably you would use T50 rather than F35 to deal with J31

This is for the Navy, 80 aircraft tender. Since we are going for CATOBAR carriers, F-35C would be high on the list for the Navy when buying a CATOBAR capable aircraft.

Mig-29K, EF-2000 and Sea Gripen stand no chance. Competitors will be Rafale, Super Hornet and F-35C. Rafale has the best chances followed by F-35C. IN already said SH is an old aircraft. So, less chances for SH.

T-50, AMCA and Rafale is for IAF.

but i didnt thought of Egypt.you are more optimistic than me on its selling

I tend to be realistic. I speak the truth as I see it. No ulterior motive here after all. Egypt may be China's first JF-17 customer.

 

[p2prada]

A mid-sized stealth fighter with two mid-thrust engines is not a good idea at all.

Why? The only reason F-35 has a single engine is because of the vertical landing requirement.

Also it's very strange that India, Korea, Japan and SAC all want to develop this kind of fighter at the very beginning.

Twin engine fighters are the best. More power, more reliability, overall superior design.

J31 might be a point-defence fighter with fairly good electronic systems, short-legged, more agile, no supercruise.
Even the engines of J31 provide it the potential of supercruise, it will make no sense considering the limited oil being carried.

Too speculative don't you think?

It is not a long range strike aircraft, for that you will have J-20 and J-11B. F-35 is also not a long range strike aircraft. Combat radius is 1000Km. The USN's proposed F/A-XX is for long range strike.

 

[no smoking]

Now, the question is whether this "export" version will be as capable as the F-35 or not...

The question is how many potential clients' targeted enemy can afford F-35?

The countries which maybe interested in J-XXX are poor countries and most of their enemies are not British or Japan but some other poor countries. How many of them can pay a 100m dolloars for a plane?

 

[p2prada]

The countries which maybe interested in J-XXX are poor countries and most of their enemies are not British or Japan but some other poor countries. How many of them can pay a 100m dolloars for a plane?

Such countries won't need J-XX type fighters. They will be more than happy with current 4th gen fighters.

 

[AprilLyrics]

seems our WS-10 engine quite fit with J-11B.

http://focus.stockstar.com/SS2012091700002380.shtml

 

[average american]

Are we conceeding the fact that China can build a 5th Generation Stealth Fighter while after 38 years India technology is only at the level of the Tejas which they had to finally give up on an use an america engine to get it to fly...... I dont think China is that advanced over India. Its possible a F35 might get in combat with enemy planes,,,,,most likely it will be a combination of F22 and other teen fighters and drones.

Mainly the US air force is an offensive weapon,,,,,we dont envision it being used for defense,,,,the entire concept of US Air War is to take it to the enemy.....most air craft the F35 destroys will be setting on the ground after the way there is prepared by missiles and drones and the F35 will use long range weapons,,,,The F35 flying at 50000 feet at near Mach 2 will be able to launch glide bombs over 50 miles and air to ground missiles over 200 miles.....

 

[AprilLyrics]

its payload maybe same as or even less than mig29 now,for it also use RD93.we need a better one.however,though we have a high thrust engine program WS15,it is not for J31,and still faraway.
so my words for Mr Panetta,how about sell some F414 to us....

 

[AprilLyrics]

Such countries won't need J-XX type fighters. They will be more than happy with current 4th gen fighters.

potential customer i think would be:
1,Pakistan:but there is probability they leave J31 and choose to cooperate with CAC on another stealth fighter.
2,Thailand:good military cooperation experience.a need for balance among southeast asia countries,as Vietnam upgrades her weapon recently.
3,Malaysia:to seek a 4th gen fighter,and not expensive
4,Indonesia:in case of K(I)DF-X failure.besides same reason as Malaysia.
5,Venezuela:lets hope Chavez buy it..

all in all, thats just my dream~

 

[GromHellscream]

its payload maybe same as or even less than mig29 now,for it also use RD93.we need a better one.however,though we have a high thrust engine program WS15,it is not for J31,and still faraway.
so my words for Mr Panetta,how about sell some F414 to us....

Even f414 is not enough, to satisfy the full capabilities of its design, a mid-thrust engine with 11-12ton thrust and T/W ratio above 10 is necessary.

 

[A chauhan]

It means India should better invest more on the radar development programs!

 

[p2prada]

I have a feeling this is not a LO or VLO aircraft. This aircraft would have RCS signatures similar to Rafale or EF-2000 with superior side and rear aspect signatures compared to the Eurocanards. This way the aircraft will be cheap and the internal bays will maintain this "lower" RCS.

Maybe that's why this is a private development by SAC and not funded by the state. SAC must be keeping it simple and cheap for export buyers. Maybe the same weight as Rafale, around 10 tons in weight, because of similar sized engines.

Which means we are yet to see a "low" component for PLAAF and the actual replacement for the J-10s.

 

[huaxia rox]

I don't think this is the case since the aircraft seems to be smaller. This could very well be the low component of PLAAF.

smaller size may mean size itself has been modified to fulfil the new role of getting put on AC coz its obvious that a size as big as j-20 cant fit some normal ACs.......of coz what i said is based on speculation only.....if we assume j-31 is the 1 lost to j-20 in the competition i will have to assume it cant be in a totally different league as j-20....of coz unless the 1st assumption is incorrect.......

You are talking about Su-37, but that was a different experimental project, also called Su-27M. Su-35 or more specifically Su-27M2 is an entirely different aircraft compared to the Su-37.

no i was talking about su-35 only and u can easily find what i was saying even in wiki....Sukhoi Su-35 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

......In total, 15 flight-capable Su-35 (Su-27M) aircraft were produced, including a Su-35UB two-seat prototype.[1][25] The original Su-35 never entered serial production due to a lack of funding,[21] and the Russian Air Force continued to use its Su-27 fleet. The Su-35's automatic control of canards and the Su-37's thrust-vectoring engine nozzles with some changes were applied to the Sukhoi Su-30MKI.

Further development
......
The modernized Su-35 was presented at the 2007 MAKS Airshow.......The aircraft featured many other upgrades to its avionics and electronic systems, including digital fly-by-wire and a rear-looking radar for firing semi-active radar homing missiles. The new Su-35 omits the canard and speedbrake; to maintain manoeuvrability equal to or greater than canard-equipped fighters, the Su-35 uses the new 117S engine with fully rotating vectoring thrust nozzles.[34][35]

 

[p2prada]

if we assume j-31 is the 1 lost to j-20 in the competition i will have to assume it cant be in a totally different league as j-20....of coz unless the 1st assumption is incorrect.......

I don't know if you plan on getting this working on your carrier, but this is definitely not the aircraft that competed with J-20. The two aircraft simply don't mix.

This is more in the 10 ton weight category while the J-20 is above 15 tons weight category, empty weight.

F-22/F-35
PAKFA/AMCA
J-20/J-31

So, no chance of competition between these two different classes of aircraft.

This is what I am talking about.
High end : CAC J-20 / SAC J-xx competition. Winner J-20.
Low end : CAC J-xx / SAC J-xx competition. Yet to be seen if it is being done this way.

Export market >>> J-31. It is possible a derivative of this aircraft may be used for low end competition. But considering there is no govt funding, this is a in house project only for the export market and hence won't be as good as what PLAAF may need.

no i was talking about su-35 only and u can easily find what i was saying even in wiki....Sukhoi Su-35 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There are two Su-35s. One which was developed very early on.

Su-27M >>> Su-35 with canards >>> Su-37... all three are experimental aircraft. MKI used flight control laws developed from these aircraft.

Su-27M2 >>> Su-35BM >>> Su-35S... Russian production version for VVS. Modified from the same Su-27SK aircraft that was exported to PLAAF.

Both are totally different aircraft. It is just that they have the -35 designation.

 

[G90]

Guys, talking about this shenyang's J-31/F-60, my advice is with a dynamic instead of static view point please...

It will be at least 5-6 years from now before this fighter become ready for export.

International arms trade is full of politics, 5-6 years later China will most likely to be the largest economy in the world with significant more military budge and most likely, a greater political influence around the world than we have now, and most likely, a more expensive labour force, thanks to economy development and currency re-valuations.

Therefore, althrough the fighter wont be cheap by then, but China has alot of more political influence to comprise that.

Coupling with the fact China is the second largest cusmtomers for oil-rich countries at the moment, and the position is likely to be strengthened 5-6 years later, so such fighter's most likely target market will be middle-east and other resource-rich countries, just these rich countries who purchased weaponaries from former soviet union during the cold-war era.

I have read quite some political research articles in my spare time, lots political reports from middle east states like Saudi Arab, UAE and other countries now regarding China as the coming superpower and an potential huge political alliance, thus adjust their national policy accordingly.

Also, with Arab spring spreading and extremely anti-israel goverments take power in middle-east one after another, I expect it wont take too much longer before another middle-east war coming, so that market is likely huge and the politiical wind there is converge with China's ususal anti-west tendency.

At the time China enter the high-end military export market by throwing stealth fighters there, China's corresponding political influence will already come together, so we dont need to worry about customers at all, this fighter is not intend for third-world countries, and it will never be.

 

[J20!]

I have a feeling this is not a LO or VLO aircraft. This aircraft would have RCS signatures similar to Rafale or EF-2000 with superior side and rear aspect signatures compared to the Eurocanards. This way the aircraft will be cheap and the internal bays will maintain this "lower" RCS.

Maybe that's why this is a private development by SAC and not funded by the state. SAC must be keeping it simple and cheap for export buyers. Maybe the same weight as Rafale, around 10 tons in weight, because of similar sized engines.

Which means we are yet to see a "low" component for PLAAF and the actual replacement for the J-10s.

Oh come on dude. Its frontal aspect basically looks exactly like the F35, how could it possibly have the RCS figures of a Rafale? Stealth shaping is something you can see, so there's no need to speculate. Like Sweetman wrote, the J31 will end up looking like what the F35 would if it didn't have that pesky STOVL requirement.

This bird's stealth shaping is easily superior to the PAK FA, and much cleaner than the F35. U cant deny it. The only unstealthy portion of this fighter is its rear, but its still has superior stealth shaping in the rear to both the PAK FA and J20.

And considering that it'll probably weigh less than the F35(which weighs more than both Rafale and Super Hornet) and will be similarly powered (2 WS13 produce almost as much as the F35's 45000lbf), the J31 will have a better T/W Ratio compared to the F35. Add it's larger wing area and better aerodynamic layout, n it'll definitely be more maneuverable than the bomb truck. Throw in the twin engines and you have more power availablr to your onboard sensors including an AESA under that nose cone.

Looking at all the facts we have thus far, there's nothing cheap or low end about this jet. It's a medium weight option to the J20's heavy weight, and a possible Carrier fighter for the PLAN.

PS: With the J10B yet to fully enter service, it's clear the J10 will be in service for at least another 30 years. It's not even final that the J10B will be its last variant, so it really would be unrealistic for a replacement to be all lined up already...

 

[p2prada]

This bird's stealth shaping is easily superior to the PAK FA, and much cleaner than the F35. U cant deny it. The only unstealthy portion of this fighter is its rear, but its still has superior stealth shaping in the rear to both the PAK FA and J20.

This may not necessarily be the case. It all depends on how much you are willing to spend in RCS reduction measures. RCS depends on 3 major factors; size, reflectivity and directivity.

Size, well it is not a large aircraft and hence will have a small RCS. Reflectivity is stealth shaping which is adequate on all 3 airframes, J-31, J-20 and PAKFA.

However what you haven't considered at all is probably the most important of the three. This is what makes the F-22 the king of the hill while the others are only trying to catch up. This is Directivity or the materials that go into making the airframe and the radar absorbent materials including paints. F-35 uses a jacket made of carbon nanotubes and covered with RAM. PAKFA, currently unknown, what we have seen is only the outer shell. J-20 may be doing well with what it already has today.

So, you see just looking at an airframe and claiming it is as stealthy as fully funded programs is not enough. As a matter of fact there is nobody on the planet who can claim the aircraft has this and this RCS just by eyeballing the airframe, especially if you are comparing two different airframes.

The reason I came to this opinion of mine is not because of size or reflectivity. It is because of directivity. Considering SAC built the frame for export out of their own pocket, how much would they be able to spend on materials if aircraft like J-20, PAKFA and F-22 require Billions just to get prototypes flying in the air. Sukhoi/Russia alone have been speculated to have spent $2Billion on the 3 PAKFA prototypes. Would SAC spend Billions for an export customer they may never get?

Even getting JF-17 to fly cost $500Million, all that money on just an airframe, FCS and engine.

This is an unpainted PAKFA, you have seen this many times,

Unpainted F-35,

Unpainted F-22,

See how similar they all look. Now we don't know what goes below these paints, but we can guess these materials are not cheap.

That's why this could be a bare bone aircraft with some loose ends. A PLAAF sponsored program may have a more stringent requirement in using materials compared to a pet project meant for export.

As of today we cannot say whether SAC has been involved in a govt funded stealth program like CAC to claim they have been researching materials since sometime. All we know is they had a design as a competitor to J-20. There is no information if actual prototypes were built, like the YF-22 and YF-23 or whether they were flight tested. Perhaps it was a direct jump to the J-20 prototype after a paper competition. If SAC is able to use these expensive materials and built their own prototype after spending Billions all on their own funding, then be my guest, believe anything you want.

Add it's larger wing area and better aerodynamic layout, n it'll definitely be more maneuverable than the bomb truck. Throw in the twin engines and you have more power availablr to your onboard sensors including an AESA under that nose cone.

It's primary role may be air superiority.

Looking at all the facts we have thus far, there's nothing cheap or low end about this jet. It's a medium weight option to the J20's heavy weight, and a possible Carrier fighter for the PLAN.

Only if there is confirmation that it is a state funded project and not a company funded project.

PS: With the J10B yet to fully enter service, it's clear the J10 will be in service for at least another 30 years. It's not even final that the J10B will be its last variant, so it really would be unrealistic for a replacement to be all lined up already...

Your oldest J-10As will be old enough for replacement, nearing 20 years by the time J-31 or equivalent is ready. Your newest J-10Bs don't have to be replaced at the same time. As J-31s or equivalent's production continues the older J-10s will be subsequently replaced. Or are you suggesting the J-10As will receive service life extension programs to keep it relevant. Unless of course China is not able to manufacture the jets fast enough to replace older ones.

 

[no smoking]

Such countries won't need J-XX type fighters. They will be more than happy with current 4th gen fighters.

They will if J-xx can be sold at the price of western 4th gen fighters.

 

[AprilLyrics]

i would say u may underextimate J31.

J31 is not a 3th gen plane with only 4th shape.though there is little information about this aircraft leaking,we know something what indicates it emulates quite a lot F-35 production process.

here for eg:insiders said SAC using wing-body integration technology (i mean the wing and body are connected when manufacted),which is also used on F-35.to support this view,we have pics here:

u see J31 fuselage was tranported as a whole with wings,rather than saperated.

this is like F-35 here:

even J20 doesnt seem to have use this tech.does T50 use this tech?

and we can sure J31 uses many composite material.it need a weight control as J31 only has 2 mid-thrust engine.

though its canopy has two piece of glass,it still looks smooth and brighter than T50's.

what's more,it showed us the weapon bay,which means it's more stealthy and at least a F35-level 4th gen aircraft.this is clearly better than programs like KDF-X.

on RCS part,i think shape is more important than size.for example,B2 the huge bat.

 

[G90]

Lets call a spade a spade, basically PAK-FA is a 3rd generation fighter with a third generation airframe, it should not even count as a stealth fighter, it is basically a very poor attempt at trying to be stealth.

It is estentially a rolled su-27.

 

[navkapu]

Lets call a spade a spade, basically PAK-FA is a 3rd generation fighter with a third generation airframe, it should not even count as a stealth fighter, it is basically a very poor attempt at trying to be stealth.

It is estentially a rolled su-27.

@G90 Very smart ......