J-11BS vs Su-30MKI

Neil

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is there any chance that chinese su 30 will be upgraded to super sukhoi...??
 

p2prada

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is there any chance that chinese su 30 will be upgraded to super sukhoi...??
The Chinese "may" have a similar program in the future.

But they won't get the upgrade we are getting, for obvious reasons.
 

Defcon 1

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So that was a PESA.

Anyway, I think OP is trying to compare J-11B to MKI. BS is the trainer version.

MKI is a 18.5 tonnes aircraft compared to 16.5 tonnes on J-11A and B.

MKI has some advantages here. First off is the radar. Bars is the better one compared to the one on J-11B.

The engine is better and comes with TVC.

By now there shouldn't be major differences in other avionics since even MKI is one and a half decades old. As a newer development J-11B may have some slight advantages in composites, but that shouldn't be a big deal.

The engine and radar alone are massive advantages. As for weapons, Russia has a track record, China, we will see once SD-10B is revealed with proper specs.

MKI has a two pilot advantage. The MKI can effectively act as a network node because the WSO can take battlespace command and share the workload with another WSO in the formation. Combine the pilot with a very good radar, the WSO can specify targets, prioritize, navigate, gauge the opponents strength, find weaknesses etc without having to risk AWACS doing the same in a high threat environment. At the same time the pilot is free to fly the bird without problems.

So, overall advantage lies with the MKI. But the Chinese have strength in numbers and may catch up in terms of technology over the next decade.

Let's see what the Super MKI program has to offer. As of today we know there will be avionics upgrades, but it is yet unknown if there will be engine upgrades. An engine upgrade will push the scale in MKIs favor by a massive extent.

Only US and France have operational AESA radars today.
How will an engine upgrade help us now? MKI already has good TWR, good load carrying capacity, and good maneuverability.
 

p2prada

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How will an engine upgrade help us now? MKI already has good TWR, good load carrying capacity, and good maneuverability.
New engine would mean new power packs. So, more power for running avionics and hence better electronics capability. Current MKIs come with two 60KW power generators.

T/W is excellent for a MKI carrying 25-50% fuel. It goes over 1.20 (25% fuel). That's with 12.5 tonne thrust engines.

At 25% fuel, T/W for Su-35 is over 1.3. That's with 14.2 tonne engines.

At 25% fuel, T/W of PAKFA could be over 1.8. With 17.6 tonne engines.

Apart from the performance upgrade, a new engine will have greater life and will be easier to maintain than before.

MKI will only get better with an engine upgrade.

117S is an upgrade option for MKI, meaning the designers revealed the 117S can be fitted on to earlier Flankers. But a new derivative engine of the Al-31FP is also possible, something that delivers slightly lesser thrust than 117S.
 

satish007

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The Chinese "may" have a similar program in the future.

But they won't get the upgrade we are getting, for obvious reasons.
Russia saling chinese su35,but Chinese formers say we obviously should not buy them.how weird they are!
 

indochina

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Okay, we need an answer to this problem and I still think that the J-11BS will be able to win in BVR track - Please note that this is BVR track, my intention is not to say that is first shot, first kill, it is only the first look (Of course with the luck) because they use RAM (RCS reduction, there are some reports that the J-11B with only 3m2 RAM) simultaneously with AESA radar detection range farther than the AESA radar of the Su-30MKI (because the AESA radar of the Su-30MKI is not the full information).

So I assume

SU-30MKI detects the targets of 3m2 at 150 km and J-11B can detect SU-30MKI at 200 km.

Stealth Fighters and Bombers: China and the World / The Quest for Superpower Status

But that's just consider the possibility of remote detection, the current Chinese PL-12 also has a range of 100 km, more Chinese people do not know the angle of the Indian AESA radar scan.I still believe the battle will take place in WVR or Dogfight Su-30MKI has the advantage with the hat 3D TVC and Canard as well as the HMS display (which can be obtained from Rafale)
 
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Neil

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Okay, we need an answer to this problem and I still think that the J-11BS will be able to win in BVR track - Please note that this is BVR track, my intention is not to say that is first shot, first kill, it is only the first look (Of course with the luck) because they use RAM (RCS reduction, there are some reports that the J-11B with only 3m2 RAM) simultaneously with AESA radar detection range farther than the AESA radar of the Su-30MKI (because the AESA radar of the Su-30MKI is not the full information).

So I assume

SU-30MKI detects the targets of 3m2 at 150 km and J-11B can detect SU-30MKI at 200 km.

Stealth Fighters and Bombers: China and the World / The Quest for Superpower Status

But that's just consider the possibility of remote detection, the current Chinese PL-12 also has a range of 100 km, more Chinese people do not know the angle of the Indian AESA radar scan.I still believe the battle will take place in WVR or Dogfight Su-30MKI has the advantage with the hat 3D TVC and Canard as well as the HMS display (which can be obtained from Rafale)

its an old article but a nice compilation....

The Su-30MKI Info Page - Vayu Sena
 

satish007

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From 0:00 to 0:15AM, 10/2/2013, which is Lunar New Year Eve 2013, many provinces such as Ho Chi Minh City, Hanoi, Can Tho, Quang Ngai, and Dong Thap are planned to simultaneously perform fireworks show to celebrate the most awaiting moment of the year.
Specifically, Hanoi City would perform fireworks and art shows in 29 destinations around the city, while Ho Chi Minh City has only 8 stages in the air but with larger scale above Saigon River, Thu Thiem District, District 2 and other spots around the city.
In combination with the fireworks, the provincial government of Hue City is going to hold a special musical show starting from 22:00 on 9/2/2013 to 0:15 of the next day at Ngo Mon Square.

They said Vietnam belongs to India.
 

Neil

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^^^ hey buddy...please dont go off topic...thnkx...!!
 

p2prada

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Okay, we need an answer to this problem and I still think that the J-11BS will be able to win in BVR track


MKIs RCS is also said to be around 3m2.

Bars is better than what you have on your bird.

From what shiphone mentioned, J-11s have a radar that was modified from J-10 which in turn was derived from Israel's old EL/M 2035.

Bars is much better compared to that.

SU-30MKI detects the targets of 3m2 at 150 km and J-11B can detect SU-30MKI at 200 km.
Bars tracks a 3m2 target at 130Km. Detection is beyond 250Km. This is only Bars. Bars Phase 2 radar tracks at 180-200Km and detects at 300-350Km. Actually these are figures for a 1.2m2 target, aka, F-16.

Bars AESA should cross 400Km for a F-16 type target.
 

indochina

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MKIs RCS is also said to be around 3m2.

Bars is better than what you have on your bird.

From what shiphone mentioned, J-11s have a radar that was modified from J-10 which in turn was derived from Israel's old EL/M 2035.

Bars is much better compared to that.



Bars tracks a 3m2 target at 130Km. Detection is beyond 250Km. This is only Bars. Bars Phase 2 radar tracks at 180-200Km and detects at 300-350Km. Actually these are figures for a 1.2m2 target, aka, F-16.

Bars AESA should cross 400Km for a F-16 type target.
Here advantage in Dogfight mode of J-11BS




A rare photo of PLAAF Su-27 pilot wearing HMS (Helmet-Mounted Sight) is shown here. The NSts-27 HMS allows the pilot to lock up a target up to 60° off the aircraft axis with his R-73/AA-11 IR guided AAM. Its lightweight bracket-mounted design with a small sighting reticle (retracted underneath the mount) is simple but effective. However the extent of Chinese Su-27 pilots exploiting the deadly HMS/R-73 combination in dogfight is thought to be very limited.

Pilots Su-30MKI uses the old style of the cap Soviet Zsh-7A. Not the hat denotes HMS system of Russia the Zsh-7AP for the T-50 or zsh-5 / Shchel-3um for the MiG-29, Su-27 Soviet Era



 
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p2prada

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Pilots Su-30MKI uses the old style of the cap Soviet Zsh-7A. Not the hat denotes HMS system of Russia the Zsh-7AP for the T-50 or zsh-5 / Shchel-3um for the MiG-29, Su-27 Soviet Era
I think you are quite confused about many things here.

India was among the first countries to employ HMS. Started with the Mig-29 in the 80s, followed up by the Mirage-2000, then came the Mig-21 Bison, then Jaguar, Sea Harrier and followed by MKI.

All firing R-73, Magic II and MICA IR.

MKI also has the SURA-K HMS. You are confused about helmet designations too, they don't really matter. HMS designations matter. There are two Russian systems in service in the IAF, Shchel-3UM/3UM-1 and SURA-K.

China received HMS systems much later.
 

indochina

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System on flight caps (HMS) Sura-K: vision up to + / - 60 degrees to + / - 8 degrees of ASP-PVD-21 HMS system used on the Su-27.

I have heard that this system is also present on the Su-30MKK and Su-30MKI (but was replaced by the Topsight I). Thus Dogfight opportunity and WVR for both sides is the same, we must consider factors qualified pilots and weapons. Indian pilot's flying hours is how much?I know the Chinese pilot's flying hours is 200 hours of flight

Topsight-I

 
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Antam1505

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It is so humiliating to compare MKI with this Chinese junk J-11. Please lock this thread

If SU-30MKI is the most advanced a/c in asia, then why India is craving for Rafale? :lol:

That Rafale buying consideration is already a solid indication that IAF realize their SU-30MKI may not be able to handle J-10B or J-11B.

Vietnam pilot on their SU30 has bad experience when they were facing chinese a/c they were always locked and unable to detect their foe.
 

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