J-11 is it that good?

p2prada

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I dont Answer, I just WARN :) Seeing the Red should signify the importance of my WARNING to TROLLS
Sir, Yes sir. I mean No sir. No, I mean Yes sir. Sir.(Wobbly knees) :noo1::roulette:
 

Soham

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ptldM3,

There are many existing threads about the J-11. Perhaps one of them can help you with more accurate information to measure the Chinese exaggerations.
 

ddg1000

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Never make such Sweeping statements without BACKING it up with Sources or atleast a plausible Argument!!!! If Chinese were regretting the SU30s, they wouldnt have gone ahead with the deal till now. They would have backed out atleast when they realised so, since they are also spending Billions on it.

Malaysia, has got a souped up version Like India, and the Malaysian and Indians Su30s are any day in a different platter than the Chinese. Read up, you will Understand!
surely i have reliable resources,unfortunately,thay are written in chinese.if u want enlish resources,i am sorry i do not have
 

StealthSniper

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Some pictures of the J-11, maybe it might give better insight on the plane:







I think we have nothing to worry about. It's based off a old design Su-27 and doesn't have the electronics, thrust vectoring or radar to even come close to a older Su-30 k model.
 

Quickgun Murugan

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Su-27SK, same plane we have been phasing out for years. No worries...
I always wonder why did Russia have to be so easy on China for this outright violation of copyright infringement? Not only that, it gave AL-31F engines to this so that China can again try to reverse engineer it to WS-10. Was'nt Russia willing to ToT Su-27 to China like in case of India?

After Pak-Fa is inducted, china will buy it and reverse engineer to name it J-XX.
 

Vladimir79

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I always wonder why did Russia have to be so easy on China for this outright violation of copyright infringement? Not only that, it gave AL-31F engines to this so that China can again try to reverse engineer it to WS-10. Was'nt Russia willing to ToT Su-27 to China like in case of India?
In 1996, when the initial ToT for Su-27SK production began, engine and avionics were to be made in Russia. This was set up to see if China was going to be a reliable export partner who would order hundreds of our fighters under license production. When China broke the contract, after only filling half the order, we knew we could not let them license produce AL-31F. If China had kept to the terms of the contract, and made follow on orders like India has, they would be license producing AL-31F today.

After Pak-Fa is inducted, china will buy it and reverse engineer to name it J-XX.
Russia and India have set up a joint-commission list on where our cooperative projects can be sold... China is not on it.
 

qilaotou

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In 1996, when the initial ToT for Su-27SK production began, engine and avionics were to be made in Russia. This was set up to see if China was going to be a reliable export partner who would order hundreds of our fighters under license production. When China broke the contract, after only filling half the order, we knew we could not let them license produce AL-31F. If China had kept to the terms of the contract, and made follow on orders like India has, they would be license producing AL-31F today.
Russia or Sukhoi has never officially accuse IP violation of China on the J-11B issue. On June 9, 2008 Sukhoi CEO Mikhail Pogosyan was interviewed by a Hongkong based TV. He mentioned the Su-27SK's IP has been sold to China in 1996 and he did not think that J-11B is a copy of Su-27SK.

Al31fn engine was never an issue. WS-10 engine is based on GE CFM56 core which is not related to Russian engines.

China paid totally 2.5b dolars for Su-27SK.

Here's the source of webnews on the interview:
Google Translate

China did reverse engineer many Russian military equipments. But now we have signed IP agreement (a few years back). IMO there are only Chinese, Russians and Japanese that can do a good job in reverse engineering.

Russia and India have set up a joint-commission list on where our cooperative projects can be sold... China is not on it.
Good. Lets see if India would place their MCA order to Russia this time.
 

Vladimir79

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Russia or Sukhoi has never officially accuse IP violation of China on the J-11B issue. On June 9, 2008 Sukhoi CEO Mikhail Pogosyan was interviewed by a Hongkong based TV. He mentioned the Su-27SK's IP has been sold to China in 1996 and he did not think that J-11B is a copy of Su-27SK.
After years of denial, a Russian defense official conceded that China had produced its own "fake" version of the Su-27SK fighter jet in violation of intellectual property agreements. Russia Admits China Illegally Copied Its Fighter - Defense News

Al31fn engine was never an issue. WS-10 engine is based on GE CFM56 core which is not related to Russian engines.
Evidence?

China paid totally 2.5b dolars for Su-27SK.
China only paid $1.3 billion. The deal was cancelled midway, and as we all know... you don't pay total up front.

Here's the source of webnews on the interview:
Google Translate
Clearly this author does not understand the terms of military contracts. Licensed production does not include IP rights.

China did reverse engineer many Russian military equipments. But now we have signed IP agreement (a few years back). IMO there are only Chinese, Russians and Japanese that can do a good job in reverse engineering.
Licensed production means you build so many items that you paid for. It does not include unlicensed production amounting to IP theft.

Good. Lets see if India would place their MCA order to Russia this time.
We will see... China won't be getting it.
 

qilaotou

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After years of denial, a Russian defense official conceded that China had produced its own "fake" version of the Su-27SK fighter jet in violation of intellectual property agreements. Russia Admits China Illegally Copied Its Fighter - Defense News
I didn't see the word "violation" mentioned by the president. The Su-27SK deal (200 copies) allowed China to produce and replace the Russian parts gradually. That is why Russia could not say much when China stopped import of the Russian assembly kits. Of course China can do anything within the limit of 200 Su-27s! I don't see any serious evidence Russia has shown to blame China for violation of commercial contract!

Evidence?
Can you do a google? I feel sorry for you that you did not even have this information.

China only paid $1.3 billion. The deal was cancelled midway, and as we all know... you don't pay total up front.
I hope you are right.

Clearly this author does not understand the terms of military contracts. Licensed production does not include IP rights.

Licensed production means you build so many items that you paid for. It does not include unlicensed production amounting to IP theft.
It was a TV interview that I myself watched it at the time. I could not find any clip of it and this link provide you some description of the interview.

I'll take the words of Mikhail Pogosyan on this matter.
 

badguy2000

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Evidence?


.


it is almost a common sense in china now that WS10 is based on Yankee's CFM56 core i

but only guys like you still kidishly insist that WS10 be copy of Russia's one and aske for evidence.....
 

Vladimir79

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it is almost a common sense in china now that WS10 is based on Yankee's CFM56 core i

but only guys like you still kidishly insist that WS10 be copy of Russia's one and aske for evidence.....
I have seen what China fanboys say and photoshop on their forums. Chinese officials swear up and down J-10 is domestic design when it is obvious it is the Lavi clone. Even Russian engineers who saw the Lavi there laugh when the subject is mentioned given the obviousness of it. Considering China had no military grade CFM56 core to copy, it makes no sense that is what WS-10A would be based. Considering they have had military grade AL-31F cores for quite sometime, and clone every other Russian item they get... it makes perfect sense to assume it is Russian design.
 

p2prada

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it is almost a common sense in china now that WS10 is based on Yankee's CFM56 core i

but only guys like you still kidishly insist that WS10 be copy of Russia's one and aske for evidence.....
Obviously your officials will not say it. And the simple speculation that the WS-10 was developed from CFM-56 is an internet propaganda. You have never had access to ToT or access to the actual military grade CFM-56 engine.

Being able to develop a military grade engine from a civilian variant is pure hogwash. My bet is it was your 50 cent army that spread this thrash to control public opinion.

0 engines till date have been converted from their civilian variant to a military variant. It has always been the other way around.

a common sense in china
Your definition of common sense may be different from the rest of the world.
 

badguy2000

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guys, I have not duty to persuade you that WS10 is based CMF56.

you can go anywhere you want to go and of course can believe whatever you want to believe.
after all,all depend on your brains and your brain is in you head....
 

p2prada

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guys, I have not duty to persuade you that WS10 is based CMF56.

you can go anywhere you want to go and of course can believe whatever you want to believe.
after all,all depend on your brains and your brain is in you head....
Over a forum the only way you can convince people is if you back up your claims with Solid Proof, and not internet nonsense.
 

ReneDad

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guys, I have not duty to persuade you that WS10 is based CMF56.
Please allow me to speak it frankly....I think you have no need to persuade anyone who refuses to acknowledge anything which is different from what he believes.

I think nationalism is more harmful to any nation itself rather than others. If a man has confidence to his country, he will have no need to be too sensitive to the criticism or misunderstanding on his country made by others. Whether people acknowledges or not, the truth will eventually come out as time goes on.

About J-11B, I deeply disagree with that some Chinese "fanboys's" boastful noscense. Obviously it is better than Su-27 which Russia sold China 15 years ago but since it still share the same airframe aerodynamics with Su-27, the improvement of its filght performance is supposed to be limited.

The purchase of Su-27 was an emergency measure to deal with the urgent need of the fourth generation fighters of PLAAF to deal with the unexpected situation of the post-Cold War era. Anyway, China has decided to develop the fifth generation fighters mostly by its own technology, so the truth will come out within 10-15 years. Why don't we just wait until the time comes?
 

Vladimir79

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About J-11B, I deeply disagree with that some Chinese "fanboys's" boastful noscense. Obviously it is better than Su-27 which Russia sold China 15 years ago
China cares more about self sufficiency than quality, that theme has been proven time and again. If it was better, then why are they not being mass produced? Considering J-11B is just a fantasy until WS-10A actually works, you are just going to have to live with the J-10. That is the only modern plane you can make and you have to import Russian engines to do it.

The purchase of Su-27 was an emergency measure to deal with the urgent need of the fourth generation fighters of PLAAF to deal with the unexpected situation of the post-Cold War era.
Su-27SK purchase was a clear cut case of IP theft. You wanted a 4th generation fighter so you duped us into selling you one with a large contract order, only to find out you were illegally copying it.

Anyway, China has decided to develop the fifth generation fighters mostly by its own technology, so the truth will come out within 10-15 years. Why don't we just wait until the time comes?
Have you forgotten that you can't even make a third generation turbofan yet? Have you noticed the avionics and HUD of China's new fighters are written in ENGLISH! Why don't you put the carte before the horse? A JXX that will be in the class of PAK FA is 40 years down the road. In the class of F-22, 50 years.
 

p2prada

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Please allow me to speak it frankly....I think you have no need to persuade anyone who refuses to acknowledge anything which is different from what he believes.
If you cannot persuade or convince or motivate a person then don't bring it up in the first place.

I think nationalism is more harmful to any nation itself rather than others.
Will agree with you there.

If a man has confidence to his country, he will have no need to be too sensitive to the criticism or misunderstanding on his country made by others. Whether people acknowledges or not, the truth will eventually come out as time goes on.
The MCA will be superior to the PAKFA and F-22. With such a statement will you ask for proof or are you just gonna let me go after I say Wait and Watch?

So, bring more proof that the WS-10 is a copy of the CFM-56 or don't even mention the name.

The so called open secret that the WS-10 is a CFM is nothing but internet propaganda unless you actually have an official confirmation.
 

sob

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In some other forum there were photographs of Mig 23 that China had purchased from Egypt and had gone on to make their own copy.

Is it possible that they have been able to lay their hands on some engines of either P&W or GE. It is just a shot in the dark.
 

Arun

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Is it possible that they have been able to lay their hands on some engines of either P&W or GE. It is just a shot in the dark.
Well yes, considering the close relation between China & pakistan and paf's f-16 has Pratt & Whitney engine for prop its a "double yes".Coz just look at the j-10 similarities with f-16 and lavi [later is a duped version of former by Israel] .There were rumors that pakistan let the chinese to inspect f-16 or shipped one to china . All these are rumors and cant guarantee any proof to it. But considering the Chinese history of steeling designs this rumor is more close to truth.
 

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