It's Sukhoi vs Eurofighter as IAF 'takes on' RAF

p2prada

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I don't think the Rafale will win the MMRCA. Clearly, every capable yet expensive........That said, if India decides not to purchase the Super Hornet. It could pull it out. As its cheaper than the Typhoon and more mature.
The MRCA deal has less to do with fly away cost and more to do with maintenance and life cycle costs. This was clearly explained by both MoD as well as IAF.

The twin engine MRCA fighters are neck and neck in that respect.

IAF is also looking at a 40 year road map for future development of the fighter in order to continue to complement the MKI and PAKFA.
 

Crusader53

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The MRCA deal has less to do with fly away cost and more to do with maintenance and life cycle costs. This was clearly explained by both MoD as well as IAF.

The twin engine MRCA fighters are neck and neck in that respect.

IAF is also looking at a 40 year road map for future development of the fighter in order to continue to complement the MKI and PAKFA.

I personally doubt the Rafale can match let alone exceed the Life Cycle Cost of the Super Hornet.


Let's also not forget the selection of Weapons avaiable to both and funding for future upgrades.
 

mayfair

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Let's also not forget the selection of Weapons avaiable to both and funding for future upgrades.
Let's not forget the elephant in the room. The US government. Superhornet is a fine plane, but the inordinate amount of baggage which it brings along has most of right thinking Indians wary of touching it with a barge pole. Ofcourse, there's this little confusion over the precise type and extent of technology the Americans are willing to transfer.
 

Godless-Kafir

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How come there are no USAF IAF exercises any more? Its already been more than 3 years?
 

p2prada

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I personally doubt the Rafale can match let alone exceed the Life Cycle Cost of the Super Hornet.


Let's also not forget the selection of Weapons avaiable to both and funding for future upgrades.
The cost of operation of jets in both US and Europe is higher with Europe being on the higher side because of the exchange rate.

It is relatively lesser in India because the pay scale of the Generals to ground crew is 5 to 10 times lesser than in US or Europe. So, it really depends on how much you will ultimately offer to us.

Then this rate will be calculated for over 40 years and not just what is the initial cost of operation. In that respect, SH is a decade older than Rafale or EF-2000 and hence the cost of operations is better defined. EF has clocked 100000 hours only in Jan this year and that too over the entire fleet and not by one nation. Rafale is yet to achieve the same. They are both new fighters and that's what is promising about them.

Weapons are an issue, but we have the option of buying American weapons anyway. European weapons are improving fast as well, especially Meteor and Aim-132.
 

Rage

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Didn't anyone get the results from these exercises?

Not published. Except some vague reports about "HVAA protection exercises", LFE engagements for the (ATC & AWACS) controllers and a heightened degree of difficulty via random mid-air refuelling denials, radar silence and whatelse.

@vijaytripoli , yes the newly acquired Phalcon AWACS were put to the test.

More pictures here:

http://www.touchdown-aviation.com/reports/2007/exercise-indra-dhanush-ii.php


And a couple here:






On a different, but related, note- you guys know that the IAF trained alongside the Rafael in Ex-Garuda '10 too, rite?:

http://www.allvoices.com/s/event-61...hbGEuY29tL25ld3MvZnVsbG5ld3MtMTMyOTE3Lmh0bWw=
 
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Armand2REP

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Thanks for that. Looks like the Su 30MKI's performed pretty well.
The M2000-5 pilot says everything went generally in the French favour. He was impressed with the powerful N011 radar, "but we proved radar is not everything." Sounds like MKI got generally beat by not only Rafale, but inferior M2000s.
 
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p2prada

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Why does it sound like the MKis were running with full MTOW of 39 tons?

Also, one thing to note is that the other participants are always impressed with the "training" mode of the Bars.

It is however true that the Rafale is a more complex system compared to the MKI. It is a decade ahead in terms of technology and MKI will exceed Rafale in some critical technologies only after 2012.

The exercise seems to be scripted. Neither Spectra nor Bars were used to their fullest potential.
 

Armand2REP

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Why does it sound like the MKis were running with full MTOW of 39 tons?
MKIs were empty...

Also, one thing to note is that the other participants are always impressed with the "training" mode of the Bars.
BVRAAMs were in full use and French pilots wouldn't be impressed by the power of Bars in "training" mode.

It is however true that the Rafale is a more complex system compared to the MKI. It is a decade ahead in terms of technology and MKI will exceed Rafale in some critical technologies only after 2012.
M2000s got the best of it too...

The exercise seems to be scripted. Neither Spectra nor Bars were used to their fullest potential.
Bars was, Spectra couldn't be used because the other nations didn't bring their ECM pods.
 

Rage

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The M2000-5 pilot says everything went generally in the French favour. He was impressed with the powerful N011 radar, "but we proved radar is not everything." Sounds like MKI got generally beat by not only Rafale, but inferior M2000s.

The report also says this:

"Nevertheless, remained to be another problem. How to restore the status of implementation of tasks of mixed troops ? On the French side the answer of course was the local system of training and reconstruction mission SLPRM ( approx. per. used for operations planning , coordination of pilots in their implementation and subsequent debriefing ) . Indian and Singaporean side had to improvise in mind the availability (F-16D) or absence (Su -30MKI ) of such equipment.(sic)"


"All participants were impressed by the skill of Indian pilots , the work of powerful radar N011 Bars with a range of 100 nautical miles and the engines of the AL -31FP (13 tons) with a thrust vector control (13 tons) . Not gone unnoticed and a wide range of antiaircraft weapons these aircraft : Russian R-77 , similar to a class on U.S. guided missiles of medium-range AIM-120 Amraam; R-27 infrared-guided , P -73 - the most modern Russian short-range development to maintain melee . Every Su-30 MKI can bear up to fourteen missiles!"


"In addition , Spectra is an excellent data collection system with the possibility of transmission of tactical communication line L16. Indian and Singaporean crews took into account the system for calculating the " fair use "of weapons , not using available Su- 30 and F-16C jammers.(sic)"


"As expected, the advantage of "dry "proved their strength and agility, although the Indian pilots and not resort to the use of vector thrust . Despite its overwhelming superiority in a climb (300 meters per second) and speed ( Mach 2.3 at 11,000 meters), the Su- 30MKI suffers greatly from its large mass (39 tons ), which is more than 1,5 tons by Rafale and the weight exceeds 2.2 tonnes Mirage 2000C. In fact, in the melee Mirage is a little more than "leaping " , but in any case, as they say the French pilots ' advantage should be seized already in the first minute."


"In view of the changing nature of potential threats in their areas of influence of the Indians and Singaporeans do not make the acquisition of new tankers in their priorities . The fact that both the F-16D, and the Su -30MKI have considerable flight range without dozapravok . In the first case, this is due to moving along the fuselage fuel tanks , which are attached to this modification of the American fighters such opportunities . Nevertheless , despite the superficial similarity , F-16 Block 52 + should not be confused with the F-16 Block 60, having greater power and less fuel consumption. F- 16 Block 52 + is often called " intermediate " link in the development of the Fighting Falcon. This aircraft has a significant disadvantage in the ratio of weight / power, which imposes severe restrictions on him at altitudes above 6,000 meters. Nevertheless , this machine is an excellent multipurpose Weapons Platform ( air - ground, air to air ) through the external suspension Litening and Lantirn."


"In fact, Singapore's 145 Squadron is the first unit air fire support . Nevertheless, her teaching all forms of combat pilots , according to French pilots , " demonstrating a surprising ability to adapt . " There is quality and from the Indian pilots , " who are learning more and more NATO standards (... ) and are characterized by seriousness and composure in battle , as well as the friendliness and affability in communion."
 

shuvo@y2k10

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even though french or british may say that rafael or eurofighter is superior than su-30mki but the range of mki's n011m radar and the tvc capabilities beats the rafael's and eurofighter's hands down anyday.
 

Armand2REP

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even though french or british may say that rafael or eurofighter is superior than su-30mki but the range of mki's n011m radar and the tvc capabilities beats the rafael's and eurofighter's hands down anyday.
Unfortunately we didn't get to see MKI's TVC, but Mirages were "leaping" on it in the first minute of engagement. N011 might be powerful, but it doesn't compete with an AWACs which backed up both sides. India has AWACs but can't use them with MKI except by voice which is what happened at Garuda IV.
 

p2prada

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BVRAAMs were in full use and French pilots wouldn't be impressed by the power of Bars in "training" mode.
Bars wasn't used. They used voice intercepts from AWACS data to issue BVR locks.

M2000s got the best of it too...
Number matter right. Our M-2000s killed American F-15s too. Is anything known about numbers used?

Bars was, Spectra couldn't be used because the other nations didn't bring their ECM pods.
Spectra was used in passive mode. Again the Rafale pilots gave locks verbally or perhaps even electronically.

This exercise was scripted and calculated. Bars and Spectra were never used, they were only in the equation form which used the concept of possibilities.

For eg: The senior Indian, Singaporen and French pilots and technicians would sit and decide the actual capabilities of their aircraft. The Indians would say their bars will detect M-2000 at 100NM. Then the French would say their Spectra can nullify bars signals with no effort. The Singaporeans would forumlate their own rules with their radars. All that is reduced to equations and then they play.

Also this,
"In addition , Spectra is an excellent data collection system with the possibility of transmission of tactical communication line L16. Indian and Singaporean crews took into account the system for calculating the " fair use "of weapons , not using available Su- 30 and F-16C jammers.(sic)"
It means Spectra wasn't used. So, both India and Singapore did not calculate their respective jammer capabilities in the equations. This means both the Indian and Singaporen pilots were crippled without having to use their EW kits. Rafale being the more advanced aircraft already had the upperhand through out the scenario. Since all aircraft were fighting with clean loads, the Rafale would have had the smallest RCS in the game. The French would win this for obvious reasons.

Real war would have different rules, ie, No Rules.
 

Armand2REP

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Bars wasn't used. They used voice intercepts from AWACS data to issue BVR locks.
Bars was used, otherwise it couldn't register a missile lock. Voice instructions do not guide a missile.
Number matter right. Our M-2000s killed American F-15s too. Is anything known about numbers used?
It was usually four on four, two MKI and M2000 against two M2000 and Rafale. Singapore was 2 F-16s and 2 M2000 against the same aggressors. Since MKI didn't bring its targeting pods, it was left to protecting the M2000s on their bombing runs.

Spectra was used in passive mode. Again the Rafale pilots gave locks verbally or perhaps even electronically.
Spectra jamming was turned off, the DDM is the threat receiver which was on. You only get radar locks either from the JTIDS or your own radar. There is NO such thing as a verbal target lock. The N011 was in full use otherwise R-77 wouldn't have been in play, nor would French pilots be going on about how powerful their radar was.
 

ace009

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On a different note to Armand, how do you pronounce Rafale in French? As "Ra-fa-el" or as "Ra-fa-le" or "Ra-fa-l"?
 

p2prada

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Bars was used, otherwise it couldn't register a missile lock. Voice instructions do not guide a missile.
That would have been big news in the Indian media if the bars was used in a multinational exercise. From what I know only Singapore has access to Bars frequencies because they almost always train only with us with real life scenarios. Russia has still not allowed the use of bars in large scale exercises with western countries.

It was usually four on four, two MKI and M2000 against two M2000 and Rafale. Singapore was 2 F-16s and 2 M2000 against the same aggressors. Since MKI didn't bring its targeting pods, it was left to protecting the M2000s on their bombing runs.
So, it was only DACT.

You only get radar locks either from the JTIDS or your own radar.
Real life, yes. Reel life, no. Exercises are reel life.

There is NO such thing as a verbal target lock. The N011 was in full use otherwise R-77 wouldn't have been in play, nor would French pilots be going on about how powerful their radar was.
MKIs simulated R-77 locks using AWACS controllers verbally during red flag in 2008. As you know we were blind with only training signals on and did not have the big picture as you did. The AWACS controllers verbally communicate to the pilots saying an enemy aircraft is "within" the range of Bars. The pilots then communicate a kill and that is registered. BVR locks can be simulated through another accompanying aircraft like the M2000 as well. It's scripted.

The training signals assist in setting up BVR locks as well. But again that is verbally communicated to AWACS controllers for "points." One reason why jamming signals are not used in such exercises is because training signals can be easily jammed, they do not use counter measures like jumping frequencies against jamming in training modes.

All exercises we have had till date with any foreign country has been scripted.
 

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