Italian Ship Fires On Indian Fishing Boat, 2 TN fishermen dead

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Godless-Kafir

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Well for me India and Indians matter, not some forum etiquette's. He has been told and retold, and proved wrong. Explanations given and articles posted. Yet he continues post silly idiotic stuff to protect murderers of my people. I dont care what anybody has done anywhere, except when it concerns Indians. Americans french and Italians are killing Libyans, Afghans , whatever happened to international law, and international courts? They have been randomly killing somali pirates, in somali waters and international waters. This is the reality, the difference between Somalia and India.

And, yes. This incident is very personal
I agree, when he repeatedly denies even logical statements then it does look like Jingoism or racism. However Armand is not the raciest type or else he wont spend so long in DFI, he is definitely a Jingo, that said supporting an Italian even when the facts are on ourside does raise an eyebrow.
 

W.G.Ewald

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Beside the criminal case, there should be a civil judgement for the families of the fishermen killed. The amount awarded will probably be minimal compared to the losses the shipping company will suffer due to the delay of the ship. And will the shipping company learn from the episode? I have said elsewhere that the way to deal with real pirates is to destroy their bases.
 

Adux

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If India defies UNCLOS and prosecutes them without Italian consent, it will create an international incident. Ambassadors will be withdrawn, defence deals cancelled and IAC will lose Italian contractors for IAC. DCN and Thales will be waiting in the wings...
Absolute hogwash. If Italy wants to take it to that level for two sailors, let them. They are in Indian custody, for killing Indian citizens on a Indian boat, in Indian waters and extending EEZ. We reserve the right pursue anyone who has committed on a crime on Indian soil (indian boat) and on Indian citizens. ANYWHERE
 

Godless-Kafir

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If India defies UNCLOS and prosecutes them without Italian consent, it will create an international incident. Ambassadors will be withdrawn, defence deals cancelled and IAC will lose Italian contractors for IAC. DCN and Thales will be waiting in the wings...
Really? 200kms from the cost line is the special economic zone of a nation, the incident took place in Indian waters.. We did not back down from a nuclear test, You think Europeans will give up billions worth of deal for two guys? That is never going to happen, money is what glues EU not race or nationality. There is plenty of races and nationalities with in EU its only the green glue of money that holds EU together. In this case i dont see Thales ever withdrawing, if they did do that they will go bankrupt not to mention Dassult will have to shut down, we will also ask Brazil to reconsider. Dont show your true colors now.
 
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Adux

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I agree, when he repeatedly denies even logical statements then it does look like Jingoism or racism. However Armand is not the raciest type or else he wont spend so long in DFI, he is definitely a Jingo, that said supporting an Italian even when the facts are on ourside does raise an eyebrow.
Till now it was all promoting french products etc etc, its called having an agenda. I am ok with that. But you cannot come into an Indian forum, and baseless question and poke fun at Indian Civil authority over murders of poor indian fishermen. We arent somalia, it is about time Indian members stolp behaving like coolies to the white sahibs.
 

KS

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nrj

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Adux

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Really? 200kms from the cost line is the territorial waters of a nation, the incident took place in Indian waters.. We did not back down from a nuclear test, You think Europeans will give up billions worth of deal for two guys? That is never going to happen, money is what glues EU not race or nationality. There is plenty of races and nationalities with in EU its only the green glue of money that holds EU together. In this case i dont see Thales ever withdrawing, if they did do that they will go bankrupt not to mention Dassult will have to shut down, we will also ask Brazil to reconsider. Dont show your true colors now.
You didnt get him, he said if the Italians leave, the french will take over. DCN AND THALES - FRENCH , IAC's current consultants are Italians in a very low level. Good more power to Armand, and his country. I dont care about IAC at the cost of our national honor and lives of two indians.
 
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pmaitra

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But he is westerner's and most probably white, I explicitly told he is racist in his agenda. RACIST not equal to ITALIAN, or do you have some other dictionary
Don't worry about my dictionary. One thing is sure, you have been taught a dictionary full of expletives and curse words. The fact that many of your posts are either edited out or deleted proves it. There is no need to buttress the display of your nationalism by vulgar language.
 

Godless-Kafir

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Till now it was all promoting french products etc etc, its called having an agenda. I am ok with that. But you cannot come into an Indian forum, and baseless question and poke fun at Indian Civil authority over murders of poor indian fishermen. We arent somalia, it is about time Indian members stolp behaving like coolies to the white sahibs.
I totally understand and i am totally with you, look at my response in that thread "should we be kind to foreign members".
 

Adux

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Don't worry about my dictionary. One thing is sure, you have been taught a dictionary full of expletives and curse words. The fact that many of your posts are either edited out or deleted proves it. There is no need to buttress the display of your nationalism by vulgar language.
It is unfortunate you havn't been taught such things, must be a very boring life. I suggest you do your job well, and make sure foreigner's dont come here and harass extremely sensitive topics such as two innocent indian fishermen being murdered, I am not going to sit here and watch somebody ridicule Indian position, judiciary, lives and our word.
 

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@Armand2REP please check this, GOI is within its rights to arrest those persons responsible for killing of Indian frishermen.

UNITED NATIONS CONVENTION ON THE LAW OF THE SEA

Article27

Criminal jurisdiction on board a foreign ship

1. The criminal jurisdiction of the coastal State should not be exercised on board a foreign ship passing through the territorial sea to arrest any person or to conduct any investigation in connection with any crime committed on board the ship during its passage, save only in the following cases:

(a) if the consequences of the crime extend to the coastal State;

(b) if the crime is of a kind to disturb the peace of the country or the good order of the territorial sea;

(c) if the assistance of the local authorities has been requested by the master of the ship or by a diplomatic agent or consular officer of the flag State; or

(d) if such measures are necessary for the suppression of illicit traffic in narcotic drugs or psychotropic substances.
UNCLOS and Agreement on Part XI - Preamble and frame index


Italy


Declarations made upon signature (7 December 1984) and confirmed upon ratification (13 January 1995):

"Upon signing the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea of 10 December 1982, Italy wishes to state that in its opinion part XI and annexes III and IV contain considerable flaws and deficiencies which require rectification through the adoption by the Preparatory Commission of the International Sea-Bed Authority and the International Tribunal for the Law of the Sea of appropriate draft rules, regulations and procedures.

Italy wishes also to confirm the following points made in its written statement dated 7 March 1983:

- - according to the Convention, the Coastal State does not enjoy residual rights in the exclusive economic zone. In particular, the rights and jurisdiction of the Coastal State in such zone do not include the right to obtain notification of military exercises or manoeuvres or to authorize them.

Moreover, the rights of the Coastal State to build and to authorize the construction operation and the use of installations and structures in the exclusive economic zone and on the continental shelf is limited only to the categories of such installations and structures as listed in art. 60 of the Convention.

- - None of the provisions of the Convention, which corresponds on this matter to customary International Law, can be regarded as entitling the Coastal State to make innocent passage of particular categories of foreign ships dependent on prior consent or notification."

Upon ratification (13 January 1995):

Upon depositing its instrument of ratification Italy recalls that, as a State member of the European Community, it has transferred competence to the Community with respect to certain matters governed by the Convention. A detailed declaration on the nature and extension of the competence transferred to the European Community will be made in due course in accordance with the provisions of Annex IX of the Convention.

Italy wishes also to reconfirm the following declarations made when it signed the Convention:

According to the Convention, the coastal State does not enjoy residual rights in the exclusive economic zone. In particular, the rights and jurisdiction of the coastal State in such zone do not include the right to obtain notification of military exercises or manoeuvres or to authorize them. Moreover, the rights of the coastal States to build and to authorize the construction, operation and the use of installations and structures in the exclusive economic zone and on the continental shelf is limited only to the categories of such installations and structures as listed in article 60 of the Convention.

None of the provisions of the Convention, which corresponds on this matter to customary international law, can be regarded as entitling the coastal State to make innocent passage of particular categories of foreign ships dependent on prior consent or notification.

Italy has the honour to declare, under paragraph 1(a) of article 298 of the Convention, that it does not accept any of the procedures provided for in section 2 of Part XV with respect to disputes concerning the interpretation of articles 15, 74 and 83 relating to sea boundary delimitations as well as those involving historic bays or titles.

In any case, the present declarations should not be interpreted as entailing acceptance or rejection by Italy of declarations concerning matters other than those considered in it, made by other States upon signature or ratification.

Italy reserves its right to make further declarations relating to the Convention and to the Agreement whose instrument of ratification is hereby deposited.

Declaration made after ratification (26 February 1997)

In implementation of article 287 of the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea, the Government of Italy has the honour to declare that, for the settlement of disputes concerning the application or interpretation of the Convention and of the Agreement adopted on 28 July 1994 relating to the Implementation of Part XI, it chooses the International Tribunal for the Law of the Sea and the International Court of Justice, without specifying that one has precedence over the other.

In making this declaration under article 287 of the Convention on the Law of the Sea, the Government of Italy is reaffirming its confidence in the existing international judicial organs. In accordance with article 287, paragraph 4, Italy considers that it has chosen "the same procedure" as any other State Party that has chosen the International Tribunal for the Law of the Sea or the International Court of Justice.
Declarations or Statements upon UNCLOS ratification Declarations made upon signature (7 December 1984) and confirmed upon ratification


this part leave a side on any doubt that India has jurisdiction to deal with this case to arrest and investigate the murder.
 

nrj

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The official said it was up to the Kerala how they want to proceed with the investigation and there were no hurdles or impediment for the state government for its investigation.

During the discussions, the two sides discussed whether any international conventions apply checked whether any UN laws on the seas apply but found nothing :p
Vessel case: Italian delegation meets Indian officials

The Ministry officials also told the delegation that law and order was a state subject and they could approach Kerala government and discuss the issue.
 

Adux

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Gentlemen,


This is a unique and important issue. This is a matter that will set precedence. If we are seen as lenient or cowing down to pressure of Europeans, when they have nothing to stand on. It will be seen as a indicator by a lot of nations who wishes to harm and curtail us. It will encourage them. Did we agree to send back Kasab to Pakistan for trail? How much anguish does it give members here that Kasab is enjoying his life in our prisons. Have you thought about the impact it will on the Kerala Government (which has a lead of 1 seat), the government will FALL and the LDF will make sure of that. Trust me, Gentlemen, This is much larger than italy or IAC. This is about Indian politics.

More than everything else, have you thought about the impact it will have on our own people , when we without punishment send two murderer's back to their home country? Do you think our media will sit quiet? Do you think the people in kerala sit quiet?

Congress and the Indian Government are not filled with idiots.
 

Adux

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Sayareakd,


Excellent Posts as is expected out of you.Good work.
 

W.G.Ewald

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Congress and the Indian Government are not filled with idiots.
You are fortunate. The US Congress is filled with criminal idiots.
 

Adux

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There is no more a case of Jurisdiction, They have been arrested. How can the Indian Police and Indian Judiciary issue a warrant, if they didnt have jurisdiction. We may be lazy, corrupt and at times heartless, but what we are not is incompetent.
 

Adux

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You are fortunate. The US Congress is filled with criminal idiots.
I should have used a conditional word over there, 'not all'. It is politics. Government of Kerala will fall, if they loose just 1 member. And if they let these people go, the Communist will make sure of that. Congress Party and Indian Government are selfish. Italian connection of Sonia Gandhi can do diddly sqwat.
 

Daredevil

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I hope Kerala govt. don't cow to the pressure of diplomacy or the Madam and take it easy with case. Let the law take its course impartially without any pulls and pressures from anyone.
 
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