Israel-Palestine Conflict

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The Messiah

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We have to keep in mind the state of Israel (c.1050 BCE) and Judah have existed since ancient times, at the same place where Israel exists today, we can further conduct research on how they were forced out by the advent of different powers in the region be it Pharaohs, Romans, Christians, Muslims etc. But land was always considered homeland of Jews, even by the occupying forces.................This video may compress all the info into a small package to understand the Long and complex history behind the conflict!



Quick Info:

A Map of Jewish Hasmoneon Kingdom (c.140 BCE)




King David's Empire was even Larger than Hasmoneon Kingdom (c.1008 BCE)



A conflict in any region affects the whole World, but we should know all the different perspectives towards the cause of the conflict. I have posted a video and some information about Jewish claims on their Homeland/Holy-land called Israel, which are different from what we usually read in Pro-leftist and Arabic mediums of information. I truly believe both Jewish and Palestinian people have a right to exist.

V Peace V
and yet when moses brought jews (who were slaves) from egypt to area known as palestine/israel there were already people living in that region so jews weren't the first to settle there.
 
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ejazr

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Guyana becomes 7th South American state to recognize Palestinian independence

The country's foreign ministry says decision comes in keeping with Guyana's support of the 'legitimate aspirations of the people of Palestine for the exercise of their right to self-determination.'

Following Ecuador, Bolivia, Brazil, Argentina, Uruguay, and Chile, Guyana has become the seventh South American nation to recognize an independent Palestinian state, Al Jazeera reported on Thursday.

In a statement by the country's Foreign Ministry, Guyana's said it hoped "that the increasing recognition of the state of Palestine will contribute to a resolution of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and the creation of lasting peace and stability in the region."

The decision to recognize a Palestinian state, the statement added, was "in keeping with Guyana's long-standing and unwavering solidarity with, and commitment to, the just and legitimate aspirations of the people of Palestine for the exercise of their right to self-determination and to achieve a homeland of their own, independent, free, prosperous and at peace."

Last week, Chinese news agency Xinhua reported that Chilean President Sebastian Pinera announced that he officially recognizes an independent Palestinian state, following the official recognition of Palestine by other Latin American countries.

Speaking a La Moneda Palace in Santiago, Pinera said the leaders of the country's political parties "recognize the state of Palestine."

A resolution calling on Pinera to recognize Palestine as an independent state was passed by the Chilean Senate two days earlier, Xinhua reported.

Last week, Palestinian Foreign Minister Riyad al-Maliki said that President Pinera is due to visit the West Bank in three months. He also announced the opening of a Palestinian embassy in Ecuador, which already declared its recognition of a Palestinian state.

Uruguay also announced that they planned to join Argentina, Brazil and Bolivia in recognizing a Palestinian state, and al-Maliki said that they would formally do so in March 2011.

Palestinians have been seeking international recognition of a state at a time when talks on a long-term peace settlement with Israel are deadlocked.

Earlier this month, Brazil, Venezuela and Argentina recognized Palestine as an independent state within its borders prior to 1967, in decisions that the United States and Israel slammed as counterproductive and damaging.
 

neo29

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Palestine must understand the Jerusalem is holy for Jews. It was named a holy city by jews who lived years back. Why to stake claim on that ??? If Palestine gives up claim on Jerusalem then negotiations will move forward quickly. But the so called "Palestine Freedom Movement" is become more of a terrorism business that cant be shut down.
 

The Messiah

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Palestine must understand the Jerusalem is holy for Jews. It was named a holy city by jews who lived years back. Why to stake claim on that ??? If Palestine gives up claim on Jerusalem then negotiations will move forward quickly. But the so called "Palestine Freedom Movement" is become more of a terrorism business that cant be shut down.
it is also holy to christians and muslims. all 3 religions are 99% identical with few minor differences.

and palestinians are open to going back to 1967 borders and having Jerusalem for both.

also all negotiations are useless because one side is much stronger than the other and if i was an israeli i would be an idiot to give much even an inch and if i was a palestinian if fight for every inch i could get.

if i was born 100 years ago i wouldn't mind bombing a bus full of britishers in India and id be labelled a terrorist and a savage but my countrymen will know what i actually am.
 

civfanatic

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As more and more countries recognize Palestinian independence, international pressure on Israel will only increase.

It's only a matter of time before Palestine will win its independence, which they deserve.
 

ejazr

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Palestine must understand the Jerusalem is holy for Jews. It was named a holy city by jews who lived years back. Why to stake claim on that ??? If Palestine gives up claim on Jerusalem then negotiations will move forward quickly. But the so called "Palestine Freedom Movement" is become more of a terrorism business that cant be shut down.
East Jerusalem is a Arab majority area and has mainly Muslim and Christian places of religious importance. Other important Christian places of religious importance come in the West Bank region. Palestinians include both Christians and Muslims and have a stake in Jerusalem. When we talk about 1967 borders, this border also divides Jerusalem into east and west as well.

Here is a map from a Jewish website that indicates the pre-1967 borders and you can notice how the border passes through the city of Jerusalem



And calling for the pre-1967 borders is not something that is contrary to Israel's position at various points in time. Even the Israeli PM Rabin in 1994 and PM Olmert as late as 2008 had said the same thing. And this why it continues to be a position of a large number of countries around the world including India, EU, Russia, Arab League as well as the US.

Olmert: Israel must return to 1967 borders

Prime Minister Ehud Olmert took advantage of yesterday's special Knesset marking the 13th anniversary of the assassination of Yitzhak Rabin to call for territorial withdrawals in all disputed areas and to denounce violence on the part of Jewish settlers.

"We must give up Arab neighborhoods in Jerusalem and return to the core of the territory that is the State of Israel prior to 1967, with minor corrections dictated by the reality created since then," he said.

"Many Israelis viciously beat up Palestinians seeking to harvest olives as they have for centuries, and there is no end [to it]. Young Israelis, smitten by messianic dreams, hit our soldiers, breaking their bones and threatening their lives, and no one stops them," Olmert said. "I will not permit this to continue," he promised.

Olmert also said that, "Every government will need to tell the truth, which unfortunately will require us to tear out many parts of the homeland in Judea, Samaria, Jerusalem and the Golan Heights." Addressing the settlers, he said: "You, too, will have do carry out a moral reckoning and reach a decision."

The National Union-National Religious Party Knesset whip Uri Ariel and fellow party MK Aryeh Eldad left the plenum in protest. "We cannot tolerate the fact that a failed prime minister, who is accused of corruption, uses the little free time he has left between police interviews to call for the destruction of the Jewish settlement enterprise in Israel," Eldad said.

Likud whip Gideon Sa'ar accused Olmert of "cynically exploiting a state ceremony for a political speech in the spirit of the extreme left."

Three hours earlier, Foreign Minister and Kadima Chairwoman Tzipi Livni told a meeting of party MKs that "the murder of a prime minister in Israel must not be a subject of political disputes. [Rabin] was the prime minister of us all."

Yesterday was the last day of deliberations in the Knesset plenum before the election hiatus. Party whips postponed the dissolution of the Knesset session by a few days in order to hold the Rabin memorial.

The denunciation of attacks by Jewish settlers on Israel Defense Forces soldiers and pointed criticism of the media for conducting interviews with Rabin's killer, Yigal Amir, dominated yesterday's Knesset deliberations.

"We cannot tolerate the calls being heard today to hurt the prime minister or IDF soldiers. We will take immediate action against lawbreakers and inciters," opposition leader and Likud Chairman MK Benjamin Netanyahu told the Knesset.

Knesset Speaker MK Dalia Itzik (Labor) said she was astonished by the competition between the television networks over broadcasting the interview with Amir. "The name of the despicable murderer must not be mentioned among us," Itzik said. "This is not an issue of freedom of expression, rather it's an attempt by the murderer to win legitimacy. Let him rot in prison, don't give him a stage, throw him into the garbage pail of history."

In large measure Olmert's Knesset speech yesterday echoed his remarks at the state memorial for Rabin earlier in the day at Jerusalem's Mt. Herzl, where Rabin is buried. He called for giving up Arab neighborhoods in East Jerusalem and returning to the 1967 borders, with slight amendments.

"We have no choice but to give up, with great torment, parts of our homeland of which we dreamed for generations of yearning and prayers," Olmert said. "For a generation an increasingly sharp disagreement has been raging in Israel over what should be here. Since the murder the dispute has only become fiercer.

"Rabin was not thrilled about the decision, he was tormented before Oslo, he hesitated about the agreement and was filled with doubt even after making a decision - not out of illusions or false hopes - but rather he decided to go in a direction that more and more people today are willing to accept," Olmert said.

President Shimon Peres addressed recent settler violence in his remarks at Mt. Herzl. "There is a small minority of reckless, unrestrained people who boldly defy the state's authority, attack Palestinians just for being Palestinian and challenge the law-enforcement mechanisms that, among others, protect them, too.

"We must isolate and expel this violent and dangerous minority," Peres added, "and we mustn't be silent in the face of their incitement. We cannot tolerate the acts of vandalism and violence. It is as though they are a state within a state. It is the responsibility of the state to carry out justice without fear - the honor of Israel and the strength of its democracy and lawfulness depends on it."
 
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anoop_mig25

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@ejazr where is west bank region in above image and did future Palestine state would look like one in above incorporating yellow and red region if and when isreal would for pre-1967 border . seriouslly it would look terrible in shape
 

Tshering22

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^^^ is it going to change anything on the table/land
I doubt so. Most South American countries are Leftist leaning and will support Palestine. I think we as Indians, must abstain from such decisions. Israel respects our problems and we must respect theirs so we should keep out of this.

As for those who think Israel is the only aggressor, Palestinians have done equal bad and equally take the blame. Using religion to gain sympathy in Arab world is the first excess they did instead of making it a national issue. Because Palestinians are Jordanians and Syrians by origin implanted there to deny Jews their historic land.

Call what you may but IMO Israel has every right on that part of land.
 

Tshering22

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what nonsense are you posting ? palestinians have legitimate cause while kashmirs don't.

palestinians have suffered from jews and have been backstabbed by arabs. jews before muslims were bombing hotels and other civilian areas to carve out israel from palestine.

DO you know that there were no "Palestine" until the Greeks captured and named it something like Phillistines, driving out the Jews? So who is the legitimate owner of the land today? Jews or Arabs? Just because at that time Jews were forced out doesn't mean that they don't own the land anymore. It was always theirs. BTW your posts are contrary to even what Indian Jews say as well as Jews from all over the world.

The one single historic point that puts a stop to this debate is that Jews existed in that land before Arabs and hence it is their land by right. Period.
 

ejazr

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@ejazr where is west bank region in above image and did future Palestine state would look like one in above incorporating yellow and red region if and when isreal would for pre-1967 border . seriouslly it would look terrible in shape
Yes it is expected to look more or less like that. There might be a few adjusments here and there on the boundaries ofcourse. It would be a terrible shape but that's what you will get when you divide the land into Arab and Jewish majorities. When India was partitioned, Pakistan was in no better shape either with two seperate wings. Division of land on the basis of religion is a bad idea but now that a Jewish land of Israel is a reality this is the next best solution that has the most widely acceptable and practicable solution.

Once the indepedant state of Palestine is established, there is a good chance of good relations being bbuilt with its Arab neighbours over a period of time. The Arab Peace Plan led by King Abdulla of Saudi Arabia, not only calls for full recognition of Israel in return but also full diplmatic and trade relations as well.
So we could have trade relations and border crossings between Palestine and Israel as well once the political aspect is decided.

Here is the Arab Peace Plan text first aired in 2002 and reiterated in 2007

The Arab Peace Initiative

The Council of Arab States at the Summit Level at its 14th Ordinary Session,

Reaffirming the resolution taken in June 1996 at the Cairo Extra-Ordinary Arab Summit that a just and comprehensive peace in the Middle East is the strategic option of the Arab countries, to be achieved in accordance with international legality, and which would require a comparable commitment on the part of the Israeli government,

Having listened to the statement made by his royal highness Prince Abdullah bin Abdul Aziz, crown prince of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, in which his highness presented his initiative calling for full Israeli withdrawal from all the Arab territories occupied since June 1967, in implementation of Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338, reaffirmed by the Madrid Conference of 1991 and the land-for-peace principle, and Israel's acceptance of an independent Palestinian state with East Jerusalem as its capital, in return for the establishment of normal relations in the context of a comprehensive peace with Israel,

Emanating from the conviction of the Arab countries that a military solution to the conflict will not achieve peace or provide security for the parties, the council:

1. Requests Israel to reconsider its policies and declare that a just peace is its strategic option as well.

2. Further calls upon Israel to affirm:

I- Full Israeli withdrawal from all the territories occupied since 1967, including the Syrian Golan Heights, to the June 4, 1967 lines as well as the remaining occupied Lebanese territories in the south of Lebanon.

II- Achievement of a just solution to the Palestinian refugee problem to be agreed upon in accordance with U.N. General Assembly Resolution 194.

III- The acceptance of the establishment of a sovereign independent Palestinian state on the Palestinian territories occupied since June 4, 1967 in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, with East Jerusalem as its capital.

3. Consequently, the Arab countries affirm the following:

I- Consider the Arab-Israeli conflict ended, and enter into a peace agreement with Israel, and provide security for all the states of the region.

II- Establish normal relations with Israel in the context of this comprehensive peace.

4. Assures the rejection of all forms of Palestinian patriation which conflict with the special circumstances of the Arab host countries.

5. Calls upon the government of Israel and all Israelis to accept this initiative in order to safeguard the prospects for peace and stop the further shedding of blood, enabling the Arab countries and Israel to live in peace and good neighbourliness and provide future generations with security, stability and prosperity.

6. Invites the international community and all countries and organisations to support this initiative.

7. Requests the chairman of the summit to form a special committee composed of some of its concerned member states and the secretary general of the League of Arab States to pursue the necessary contacts to gain support for this initiative at all levels, particularly from the United Nations, the Security Council, the United States of America, the Russian Federation, the Muslim states and the European Union.

For purposes of comparison, the following is an earlier draft discussed by Arab foreign ministers on 25 March, 2002, in advance of the summit:

The Council of the Arab League, which convenes at the level of a summit on March 27-28, 2002 in Beirut, affirms the Arab position that achieving just and comprehensive peace is a strategic choice and goal for the Arab states.

After the Council heard the statement of Crown Prince Abdullah bin Abdul Aziz in which he called for the establishment of normal relations in the context of a comprehensive peace with Israel, and that Israel declares its readiness to withdraw from the occupied Arab territories in compliance with United Nations resolutions 242 and 338 and Security Council resolution 1397, enhanced by the Madrid conference and the land-for-peace principle, and the acceptance of an independent, sovereign Palestinian state with al-Quds al-Sharif as its capital, the Council calls on the Israeli government to review its policy and to resort to peace while declaring that just peace is its strategic option.

The Council also calls on Israel to assert the following:

* Complete withdrawal from the Arab territories occupied since 1967, including full withdrawal from the occupied Syrian Golan Heights and the remaining occupied parts of south Lebanon to the June 4, 1967 lines.
* To accept to find an agreed, just solution to the problem of Palestinian refugees in conformity with Resolution 194.
* To accept an independent and sovereign Palestinian state on the Palestinian lands occupied since June 4, 1967 in the West Bank and Gaza Strip and with Jerusalem (al-Quds al-Sharif) as its capital in accordance with Security Council Resolution 1397.

In return, the Arab states assert the following:

* To consider the Arab-Israeli conflict over and to enter into a peace treaty with Israel to consolidate this.
* To achieve comprehensive peace for all the states of the region.
* To establish normal relations within the context of comprehensive peace with Israel.

The Council calls on the Israeli government and the Israelis as a whole to accept this initiative to protect the prospects of peace and to spare bloodshed so as to enable the Arab states and Israel to coexist side by side and to provide for the coming generations a secure, stable and prosperous future.

It calls on the international community with all its organisations and states to support the initiative.

The Council calls on its presidency, its secretary general and its follow-up committee to follow up on the special contacts related to this initiative and to support it on all levels, including the United Nations, the United States, Russia, the European Union and the Security Council.
 

The Messiah

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DO you know that there were no "Palestine" until the Greeks captured and named it something like Phillistines, driving out the Jews? So who is the legitimate owner of the land today? Jews or Arabs? Just because at that time Jews were forced out doesn't mean that they don't own the land anymore. It was always theirs. BTW your posts are contrary to even what Indian Jews say as well as Jews from all over the world.

The one single historic point that puts a stop to this debate is that Jews existed in that land before Arabs and hence it is their land by right. Period.
People were living in the land when jews were slaves in egypt and moses still hadn't encountered the burning bush. So jews weren't the first people.

Not all palestinians are arabs.
 

Nonynon

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People were living in the land when jews were slaves in egypt and moses still hadn't encountered the burning bush. So jews weren't the first people.

Not all palestinians are arabs.
The ones who where there before Jews weren't a nationality or an ethnicy, they were just a bunch of city states. And if you would start you're calculation on how long did they lived there starting from the rise of civilization then its not that long either. They are today spread among everyone, probably in Jewish blood too.

Not all Palestinians are Arabs? What else are they?
 

amitkriit

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The ones who where there before Jews weren't a nationality or an ethnicy, they were just a bunch of city states. And if you would start you're calculation on how long did they lived there starting from the rise of civilization then its not that long either. They are today spread among everyone, probably in Jewish blood too.

Not all Palestinians are Arabs? What else are they?
Israel deserves to exist, it's people deserve to live peacefully and prosper. I believe Palestine issue has been drawn out of proportion by Arab countries. Even those bleeding-hearts are not serious about the well-being of Palestinians, they themselves don't want a peaceful settlement of the issue.
 

kch

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Is there emigration of Palestinians out of Westbank/Gaza ? I'd have thought a lot of Palestinians must be sick of ghetto life and want to flee it. Jordan/Syria/Lebanon won't be happy to accept them (hypocrites that they are). But I'm sure there's enough space in Egypt. Does Israel govt. actively encourage that kind of emigration (a sort of reverse-zionist movement for palestinians if you would) ?
 

Nonynon

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Don't get the facts confused, there's no blockade on the West bank (in fact, wikileaks revealed a big Israeli-PA corporation over there) and the West banks economy is growing rapidly as we speak.
And yes, they can immigrate out and they already started making a big minority in some Latin American countries, not to mention Europe. The Israeli government doesn't encourage or discourage it. There's no illusion that they might all go somewhere else, that would be just silly to think that even possible.
Also, Palestinians make the majority in Jordan and a big minority in Lebanon. Hell they make over 80% of the Jordanian population. The only reason Jordan isn't named Palestine is because the British thought it smart to give some random Arab tribe the land that should have been Palestinian and make the Palestinians more encouraged to fight the Zionists after all the rest of their land was given away to someone else.
If the Brits would not have interfered the whole conflict would have probably ended after 2 wars tops (because there would be no Gaza or West bank, all the Palestinians would have their own country in modern day Jordan and Israel would have defensible boarders).

Edit: I say this because in our war if independence the only reason we didn't conquer the West bank and Gaza is because of British intervention and Western pressure. Gaza was outflanked twice and twice the UN forced Israel to withdraw. As for the West bank the British sponsored the Jordanian army and he fought under British generals with British equipment and British intelligence, without those he would have stood no chance in holding the West bank and East Jerusalem. And even if he did then after the southern (Sudan and North Africa) and northern fronts (Syria, Lebanon, Iraq) were won, the Jordanians would have had no chance standing alone vs Israel if it wasn't the the UN calling for immediate ceasefire...
Makes me wonder why the hell Israel joined the West in the Cold war and not the Communists that supported Israel's fight on the British from the very beginning. To be honest, I looked into a lot of books and never found a good answer.
 
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Tomcat

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the thing is that the arabs only sold all the lands to the jews in the starting and when the jews started to work the land and make it bloom the arabs got pissed and above all the 1948 partition of palastine was duely accepted by the jews it was the arabs that started the war
 

kch

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Nonynon : I did not ever say there was a "blockade". All I said was that there's a "ghetto" - meaning overcrowding in small area. I'm not blaming the gettoes on Israel in any manner :)

So what's Israel's long term plan for solving the philistine question - I'm sure they should look for shifting out all the Palestinians somewhere ? There's no hope of them ever becoming friendly to Israel. I'm interested to know what long term solutions are being discussed ....

- By the Israeli people
- By the Israeli govt

PS: you got lucky supporting the party that won the cold war. I'm sure things turned out better than if you had USSR's support.
 

Nonynon

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Nonynon : I did not ever say there was a "blockade". All I said was that there's a "ghetto" - meaning overcrowding in small area. I'm not blaming the gettoes on Israel in any manner :)
Ah sorry about that. Well yea its pretty crowded but still roomy enough for farmers to work normally and not make everything one big city. Some people get the wrong impression that all Gaza is one big city, well its small but not that small.
So what's Israel's long term plan for solving the philistine question - I'm sure they should look for shifting out all the Palestinians somewhere ? There's no hope of them ever becoming friendly to Israel. I'm interested to know what long term solutions are being discussed ....

- By the Israeli people
- By the Israeli govt
Currently the plan seems to be giving the Palestinians a country with most of the 1967 boarders (for starters, the 1967 boarders are the boarders that Israel had with the Arab countries before the 6-day war in 1967. Until then the West bank was Jordanian, Gaza was Egyptian and the Golan heights were Syrian) while keeping the strategic high grounds in order to be able to defend against any invasion or terrorists coming from the East. I mean, mortar fire from the West bank can hit all Jerusalem and some cheap rockets can also hit Tel-Aviv. Those high grounds include the mountaintops and all the boarder between the West bank and Jordan (in order to be present on top of the Jordan Vally between the West bank and Jordan). There's also some talks about giving the new Palestine country some land to connect the West Bank and Gaza. Most Israelis agree that a Palestinian country should be formed but that doesn't mean they like the idea (most don't). Still it seems like the only way to achieve peace.
The alternative is continued occupation but no one really likes that idea too much and sense the time Israel opened the pass between Gaza and the West bank Arabs in 1967, people in those places started seeing themselves more as Palestinians instead of Jordanians (West bank) or Egyptians (Gaza). So the option of not making a Palestine doesn't sound too practical.
The main problems are what to do with the settlements, the current thinking is to partly annex them and partly to evacuate them in order for the Palestinians of evacuate some of the Israeli Arabs. Another big problem is what to do with Jerusalem because the Palestinians also want it as their capital for religious reasons (although Jerusalem is never mentioned in the Koran, some interpreters that said the Koran is hinting at Jerusalem being the place Muhamad left earth).
I think its also important to mention that by Islam Israel is a land given by Allah to the Jews, something ignored recently...

PS: you got lucky supporting the party that won the cold war. I'm sure things turned out better than if you had USSR's support.
I guess you're right but I just hate the thought of being with Britain on the same side after what they've done... And the fact communism was still strong in Israel at the time is what puzzles me the most about how Israel joined the West.
 
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kch

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If land for peace works, it'll be a big reversal of trend. The usual historic trend has been - get some land, use it as staging area for attacks - get more land - ad infinitum.

I still feel Israel's demand of only "peace" as too less. "Peace" isn't something that'll benefit Israel alone but those Palestinians too. So why do Israelis think "peace" is something that Palestinians are giving to them. "Peace" is a natural outcome, not a reward for "land".

In return for "land" and evacuation of kibbutzim in westbank/gaza, these are the minimum natural rewards Israel deserves ...
- Jerusalem remains Israeli. Palestinians can pray there but never occupy it.
- West bank is delinked from Gaza - Gaza should be given to Egypt and West Bank to Jordan. No overland routes between Gaza and West Bank.

Palestinian exclusivity claim to Jerusalem is as ridiculous as Israel partially claiming Mecca because Jews used to live there.

But I guess if Israel is ready to give up Gaza strip, it also indicates a great confidence of IDF as being able to protect Israel against using that land for staging attacks.
 
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