Israel-Palestine Conflict

[Tactical Frog]

Tell me, Why is Palestine a legitimate country? Give me the logical set of facts that lead Europe to support it. I will show you just how hypocritical European thinking is.

Okay, you tell me why Israel is a legitimate country and Palestine can' t be ? That would help the discussion.

 

[Tactical Frog]

You completely missed the point of my post. BTW the only thing that never changes in history is violence. Can you tell me a time period where there was nothing but peace?

I got your point ! Well, in the long run, violence always prevails. Masada, Saladin, Templars, long history of violence indeed !
But is it too much to ask for a little peacetime in our lifetime ?

 

[Tactical Frog]

then you dont understand the Problem ..........

it is not about economic interests , Human rights or Morality ................

this is a religious War .

Al-Aqsa is 3rd Holy site of Muslims and they want capture & control it ........


American presence in Arabian peninsula (near mecca - madina ) was one of the main reason for 9/11 attacks .

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motives_for_the_September_11_attacks

during The Siege of Mecca they invited french commandos because arabs & pakistani could not do the job ............and converted them before they entered mecca .


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Mosque_seizure


they just dont want any non-muslim nearby Al-Aqsa .............and this is why they are fighting .

and this is why Britishers gave that land to Jews because Israel & Jerusalem is also very important for Jews (& Christians too ) .

now whatever UN or Europeans are saying about Israel is irrelevant ........................It is not just an ordinary land ......they will keep fighting for it ............


even if You are ready to Give shelter to Palestinian in any other country they will fight for Al-Aqsa ..........and Jews will fight for Israel .

I am not so sure about the part with French GIGN special forces converting to islam :0

And yes, I got your point. Jihadists vs fanatic Jews who would like to rebuild their Temple on the ruins of Al-Aqsa. Hopefully some new Teutonic knights order will take care of this mess

 

[Krusty]

But is it too much to ask for a little peacetime in our lifetime ?

Anyone who has any knowledge in History will know peace is not just too much. Its outright impossible. As long as Abrahamic thought process of "spreading their faith" exists. For the most part, the two most followed religions have been going at each other and fighting and converting others in the world to establish their dominance.

Okay, you tell me why Israel is a legitimate country and Palestine can' t be ? That would help the discussion.

I didn't say anything about Israel. Please read my posts again. I was only commenting on Europe's support for Palestine. For which I asked you a question. Please answer. then you can ask me yours. That's how a discussion works

 

[Tactical Frog]

Europe supports Palestinian rights to a nation state for the exact same reasons that the whole international community including India does :

1947 United Nation Plan for Palestine
1967 UNSC Resolution 242 asking for withdrawal of Israeli forces of occupied territories during the 1967 conflict
1973 UNSC Resolution 338 asking for that "negotiations start between the parties concerned under appropriate auspices aimed at establishing a just and durable peace in the Middle East"
2016 UNSC Resolution 2334 "reiterating its vision of a region where two democratic States, Israel and Palestine, live side by side in peace within secure and recognized borders" !

It is called international law. Something Europeans take seriously !

 

[cannonfodder]

And yes, I got your point. Jihadists vs fanatic Jews who would like to rebuild their Temple on the ruins of Al-Aqsa. Hopefully some new Teutonic knights order will take care of this mess

Actually, here most of us will truly prefer jihadi and evangelical jihadis kill each other and leave us Dharmics out of it.........

 

[airtel]

Europe supports Palestinian rights to a nation state for the exact same reasons that the whole international community including India does :

1947 United Nation Plan for Palestine
1967 UNSC Resolution 242 asking for withdrawal of Israeli forces of occupied territories during the 1967 conflict
1973 UNSC Resolution 338 asking for that "negotiations start between the parties concerned under appropriate auspices aimed at establishing a just and durable peace in the Middle East"
2016 UNSC Resolution 2334 "reiterating its vision of a region where two democratic States, Israel and Palestine, live side by side in peace within secure and recognized borders" !

It is called international law. Something Europeans take seriously !

these Laws (& even UNSC ) are created by Westerners ............and they follow it according to their convenience (there are thousands of example ) .


but why Israel will follow these laws ??

what you can do ?
sanctions ?(that will be ineffective )
protest ? (that will be ineffective )
war ? (you can not fight with Israel who has 200+ nukes , a good Army & advanced technology )
terrorism ?? (Hamas & Hezbollah are already doing that with no significant effect ) .

on 20th jan. trump will become American president and they will again get American support .


that means all these UN resolutions are useless .

 

[airtel]

Europe supports Palestinian rights to a nation state for the exact same reasons that the whole international community including India does :

Indian Govt. & Indian people are different ...................Most Indians (except communists & Muslims ) have Positive views about Israel .

 

[airtel]

I am not so sure about the part with French GIGN special forces converting to islam :0

you can google it .............

http://global-security-news.com/201...i-cia-and-gign-operatives-converted-to-islam/

I
And yes, I got your point. Jihadists vs fanatic Jews who would like to rebuild their Temple on the ruins of Al-Aqsa. Hopefully some new Teutonic knights order will take care of this mess

yes ................and Europeans dont understand the Problem , this is a religious war ..............and Morality , Human rights or economic interests are irrelevant .

 

[Tactical Frog]

these Laws (& even UNSC ) are created by Westerners ............and they follow it according to their convenience (there are thousands of example ) .


but why Israel will follow these laws ??

what you can do ?
sanctions ?(that will be ineffective )
protest ? (that will be ineffective )
war ? (you can not fight with Israel who has 200+ nukes , a good Army & advanced technology )
terrorism ?? (Hamas & Hezbollah are already doing that with no significant effect ) .

on 20th jan. trump will become American president and they will again get American support .


that means all these UN resolutions are useless .

Wait a second. You really classify Russia, China as Westerners ? And why non-western countries such as Mexico, Brazil, South Africa, Vietnam vote much more controversial resolutions like the latest UNESCO resolution on Jerusalem ? India and France passed on that one .
http://www.timesofisrael.com/full-text-of-new-unesco-resolution-on-occupied-palestine/

I ' ll reply later regarding what Europe can achieve without Trump's nodding.

Another reason European Union cares for this mess : we are the main taxpayers for the Palestinian Authority . That sucks to be the only geopolitical bloc that still stands for democracy and human rights !

 

[indiazain]

When compared to the Arabs ,Indians and Israels are a trillion time more smart and intelligent.Most of the Arab countries may have had access to more money than India and Israel but these clowns just throw their wealth into the dustbin because they are simply out-rightly FOOLISH.(All Arabs except maybe UAE at least of late or dum and silly).A source for their foolishness is their jealous nature ,while they dont want countries like Israel and India to progress they also dont want their "Own" people to be knowledgeable. This is how they keep complete control of their people.Most arabs as such dont value human life and now they want to preach to the rest of the world.Arabs are the greatest terror on earth.Only Israel can keep them in their place.

 

[airtel]

Wait a second. You really classify Russia, China as Westerners ? And why non-western countries such as Mexico, Brazil, South Africa, Vietnam vote much more controversial resolutions like the latest UNESCO resolution on Jerusalem ? India and France passed on that one .
http://www.timesofisrael.com/full-text-of-new-unesco-resolution-on-occupied-palestine/

i'm Talking about permanent members who have Veto power .

European Russia contains about 77% of the country's population ..........China is the only exception .
no permanent member from Africa , south America , middle east , south Asia , & south east Asia .................that means majority of population has no permanent representative in UNSC .

I ' ll reply later regarding what Europe can achieve without Trump's nodding.

waiting for Your reply about European actions without trump nodding ........(sanctions & protest will be ineffective and you can not fight wars with Israel ) .

Another reason European Union cares for this mess : we are the main taxpayers for the Palestinian Authority .

that is Your choice .........................just like accepting Muslim refugees (?) is your Choice .

That sucks to be the only geopolitical bloc that still stands for democracy and human rights !

no You dont care about democracy or human rights , that is just propaganda ............I can give You thousands of examples .

 

[Krusty]

these Laws (& even UNSC ) are created by Westerners ............and they follow it according to their convenience (there are thousands of example ) .


but why Israel will follow these laws ??

what you can do ?
sanctions ?(that will be ineffective )
protest ? (that will be ineffective )
war ? (you can not fight with Israel who has 200+ nukes , a good Army & advanced technology )
terrorism ?? (Hamas & Hezbollah are already doing that with no significant effect ) .

on 20th jan. trump will become American president and they will again get American support .


that means all these UN resolutions are useless .

Aaah I was about to say yet it but you beat me to it, the whole narrative for support for Palestine begins only in 1947 with a botched escape plan cooked up by Britain and France. It's something they themselves made up while running away from the Middle East. And they expect the whole world follow it just because they call it 'international law'.

 

[airtel]

Israeli diplomat caught on camera plotting to 'take down' UK MPs
Shai Masot is recorded discussing how to discredit MPs in comments described by Israeli embassy as ‘unacceptable’




Israeli official discusses how to discredit UK MPs in undercover footage
Ian Cobain and Ewen MacAskill

Saturday 7 January 2017 22.50 GMT Last modified on Sunday 8 January 2017 00.33 GMT



An Israeli embassy official has been caught on camera in an undercover sting plotting to “take down” MPs regarded as hostile, including foreign office minister Sir Alan Duncan, an outspoken supporter of a Palestinian state.

In an extraordinary breach of diplomatic protocol, Shai Masot, who describes himself as an officer in the Israel Defence Forces and is serving as a senior political officer at the London embassy, was recorded by an undercover reporter from al-Jazeera’s investigative unit speaking about a number of British MPs.

The Israeli ambassador, Mark Regev, apologised to Duncan on Friday. An Israeli spokesman said Regev made clear that “the embassy considered the remarks completely unacceptable”.

The Israeli embassy said Masot “will be ending his term of employment with the embassy shortly”. Masot declined to comment or to elaborate on what he meant when he said he wanted to “take down” a number of MPs.

Masot had been speaking to Maria Strizzolo, a civil servant who was formerly an aide to another Conservative minister. Also present was a man they knew as Robin, whom they believed to be working for Labour Friends of Israel, a pressure group. In fact, Robin was an undercover reporter.

Strizzolo, discussing with Masot how to discredit MPs, said: “Well, you know, if you look hard enough, I’m sure that there is something that they’re trying to hide.” Later she added: “A little scandal, maybe.”

During the conversation, in October, Strizzolo boasted that she had helped to secure a promotion for her boss, the Conservative MP Robert Halfon. She had been his chief of staff when he was deputy chair of the Conservative party. Last year Halfon was appointed as an education minister and Strizzolo was appointed as a senior manager at the Skills Funding Agency. She continues to work part-time for Halfon.

In the footage, Masot agreed that Strizzolo had assisted Halfon and then asked whether she could also achieve the opposite effect. “Can I give you some MPs that I would suggest you would take down?” he asked. He went on to say that she knew which MPs he was referring to.

She asked him to remind her. “The deputy foreign minister,” he said. Strizzolo said: “You still want to go for it?” Masot’s reply is ambiguous but he said Duncan was still causing problems. Strizzolo asked: “I thought we had, you know, neutralised him just a little bit, no?” Masot answered: “No.”




Foreign minister Sir Alan Duncan, who is an outspoken supporter of a Palestinian statehood. Photograph: Louisa Gouliamaki/AFP/Getty Images
Masot did not elaborate on what he meant by “take down”, but it is normally used as meaning to engineer a downfall, possibly through discrediting them in some way.

The conversation then turned to the foreign secretary, Boris Johnson. Strizzolo said he was solid on Israel. Masot agreed, adding that Johnson just did not care. “You know he is an idiot …” Masot said.

Strizzolo returned to the subject of Duncan later in the conversation, suggesting he had had a run-in with Halfon in the past and that Halfon had reported Duncan to the whips. So never say never, she added. Masot replied: “Never say never, yeah, but …” Strizzolo said: “A little scandal, maybe.”

Other prominent Conservatives named during the conversation include Crispin Blunt, chair of the Commons foreign affairs select committee, who is also a vocal supporter of the Palestinians.

Blunt said: “Whilst this apparent activity of a diplomat of a foreign state in the politics of the United Kingdom is formally outrageous and deserving of investigation, the real questions should be for the state of Israel itself. Israel’s future peace and security is not being served by ignoring the substantial peace lobby in both Israel and the world wide Jewish community and working to undermine those foreign politicians who share that perspective”

In another conversation, Masot agreed that Blunt was among MPs that were “strongly pro-Arab rather than pro-Israel”. Strizzolo referred to him being on a “hitlist”.

UK ministers are understood to regard such plot talks as a matter of serious concern, crossing the line beyond normal diplomatic activity. Duncan declined to comment.

Although the Israeli embassy insists Masot was a junior embassy official and not a diplomat, his business card describes him as “a senior political officer” and his LinkedIn page lists him as having worked for the embassy since November 2014. He describes his work as being the chief point of contact between the embassy and MPs and liaising with ministers and officials at the Foreign Office.

He also describes himself as having been a major in the Israeli Defence Forces (IDF) between 2004 and 2011 – serving part of that time on a patrol boat off Gaza – and still employed by the IDF as deputy head of the international organisations sector.

The disclosures comes at a sensitive moment, just over a week after Theresa May put herself at odds with the Obama administration by expressing strong support for Israel in a row over the expansion of illegal settlements in the West Bank.

The sting operation, which began in June and ran through to November last year, recorded conversations on a number of occasions that include a wide range of pro-Israeli activists as well as British politicians and Israeli embassy staff.

The recordings form the basis of four half-hour documentaries that al-Jazeera is to broadcast from 15 January.

Strizzolo sought to play down what had been discussed. Asked a series of questions by the Guardian, she issued a statement that said: “The implications the Guardian is seeking to draw from a few out-of-context snippets of a conversation, obtained by subterfuge, over a social dinner are absurd.

“The context of the conversation was light, tongue-in-cheek and gossipy. Any suggestion that I, as a civil servant working in education, could ever exert the type of influence you are suggesting is risible. Shai Masot is someone I know purely socially and as a friend. He is not someone with whom I have ever worked or had any political dealings beyond chatting about politics, as millions of people do, in a social context.”

A Foreign Office spokesman said: “The Israeli ambassador has apologised and is clear these comments do not reflect the views of the embassy or government of Israel. The UK has a strong relationship with Israel and we consider the matter closed.”


https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...caught-on-camera-plotting-to-take-down-uk-mps

 

[F-14B]

Look at a map of Middle East in 1914 and find me Israel ? find me Lebanon ? find me Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Iraq ? all these countries are "fake " in a way. Lebanon, Israel, are ju6st former parts of Syria.

Europe supports Palestinian rights to a nation state for the exact same reasons that the whole international community including India does :

1947 United Nation Plan for Palestine
1967 UNSC Resolution 242 asking for withdrawal of Israeli forces of occupied territories during the 1967 conflict
1973 UNSC Resolution 338 asking for that "negotiations start between the parties concerned under appropriate auspices aimed at establishing a just and durable peace in the Middle East"
2016 UNSC Resolution 2334 "reiterating its vision of a region where two democratic States, Israel and Palestine, live side by side in peace within secure and recognized borders" !

It is called international law. Something Europeans take seriously !

Israel has existed as a spiritual state n the heart of the jews for eons that cannot be erased from their hearts or history as a general fact
The nations you called fake except of Israel are fake becuse you and the British divided it based on your convenience
As for the UN as an Indian the UN is highjacked by scocialist loving jihadis that will suck on arab money and call countries like Israel and india on the issue of human rights for terrorist UN is run by a bunch of ssisys and shemales this includes the P5

 

[Tactical Frog]

Israel has existed as a spiritual state n the heart of the jews for eons that cannot be erased from their hearts or history as a general fact
The nations you called fake except of Israel are fake becuse you and the British divided it based on your convenience
As for the UN as an Indian the UN is highjacked by scocialist loving jihadis that will suck on arab money and call countries like Israel and india on the issue of human rights for terrorist UN is run by a bunch of ssisys and shemales this includes the P5

Well let me tell you something : the notion of a "spiritual state" is not acceptable in international relations or this will lead to fantastically devastating wars :

. Russians will claim Kiev as capital of the old kingdom of Rus
. Swedes will claim Kiev too ! as Rurik was Scandinavian .
. Serbs will annex Kosovo, the spiritual heart of their old kingdom
. India will claim the island of Java since it was part of the Chola empire
. Greeks will claim Istanbul as capital of the Eastern Roman Empire
. Morocco will claim Southern Spain as their lost caliphate

I am sure you can add many items to that list.

And last thing : before Herzl there was no such thing as sionism. Jews just moved from place to place if persecuted.

Now all this might be good in terms of Rafale sales

 

[airtel]

Well let me tell you something : the notion of a "spiritual state" is not acceptable in international relations or this will lead to fantastically devastating wars :

. Russians will claim Kiev as capital of the old kingdom of Rus
. Swedes will claim Kiev too ! as Rurik was Scandinavian .
. Serbs will annex Kosovo, the spiritual heart of their old kingdom
. India will claim the island of Java since it was part of the Chola empire
. Greeks will claim Istanbul as capital of the Eastern Roman Empire
. Morocco will claim Southern Spain as their lost caliphate

I am sure you can add many items to that list.

And last thing : before Herzl there was no such thing as sionism. Jews just moved from place to place if persecuted.

Now all this might be good in terms of Rafale sales

You can add many items in the list .................but how many of them are controlling those lands ?

Jews not only claiming that Land but they have occupied that Land .

this will lead to fantastically devastating wars ?? (well they are ready to Fight wars ..............but who will fight with Israel ?? Israel is not Libya and there will be collateral damage )

Europeans will send their Men & women to fight for Palestine ??

Muslims will Fight with Nuclear power Israel ?

Muslims can not use nuclear weapons against Israel (it will also destroy Al-Aqsa ) .

but Israel can use them .

Even in conventional wars it is extremely difficult to defeat Israel (example >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War ).

so there will be no war ................just attacks by Hezbollah & Hamas (that is not effective ) .

^^^^^^^ and now add USA in the equation .............and all those UNSC resolutions are also irrelevant .

practically You can not do anything ...........

 

[Tactical Frog]

waiting for Your reply about European actions without trump nodding ........(sanctions & protest will be ineffective and you can not fight wars with Israel ) .

It would be very easy for Europe to break Israel ' s bones applying the same kind of sanctions Europe is applying to Russia after Crimea. But that is not what Europe wants at this stage. And today is a very sad day for Israel since they lost many lives in a new terrorist attack in Jerusalem. I wish that every Israeli citizen could enjoy safety in a near future, through peace with their Palestinian neighbours, not war.

 

[airtel]

It would be very easy for Europe to break Israel ' s bones applying the same kind of sanctions Europe is applying to Russia after Crimea. But that is not what Europe wants at this stage. And today is a very sad day for Israel since they lost many lives in a new terrorist attack in Jerusalem. I wish that every Israeli citizen could enjoy safety in a near future, through peace with their Palestinian neighbours, not war.

LOL ...............You are underestimating Israel & overestimating Europe .

after 20th jan. they will get American support ..............and Your sanctions will be useless .

Israel is a small country and they share same religious & cultural background ................you sanctions will make them More & more united ...............and create Hyper-nationalism .

by the ways Germans are making submarines for Israel

^ this shows Lack of unity among Europeans .

there will be More terrorists attacks on Europeans in the future (because You are also infidel )

.........if You think Your support to Palestine or Your " refugees welcome " will change the mentality of Muslims then You are wrong .................Europeans should care about Europe instead of Palestine

 

[Tactical Frog]

Major powers will send a message to US President-elect Donald Trump on Sunday that a two-state solution between Israelis and Palestinians is the only way forward, and warn that his plan to move the US Embassy to Jerusalem could derail peace efforts.

Some 70 countries, including key European and Arab states as well as the permanent members of the UN Security Council, are due in Paris for a meeting that Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has rejected as “futile” and “rigged”. Neither the Israelis nor the Palestinians will be represented.

But, just five days before Trump is sworn in, the conference provides a platform for countries to send a strong signal to the future American leader.

Trump has pledged to pursue more pro-Israeli policies and move the US Embassy from Tel Aviv, where it has been for 68 years, to Jerusalem, all but enshrining the city as Israel’s capital despite international objections.

“It would be a unilateral decision that could escalate tensions on the ground,” a senior French diplomat said.

“Five days before he becomes president, it’s not negligible that 70 countries recall (the need for) a two-state solution when his administration could implement controversial measures that may aggravate things.”

France has said the meeting does not intend to impose anything on Israel or the Palestinians and that, ultimately, only direct negotiations between the two can resolve the conflict.

A draft communique seen by Reuters reaffirms existing international resolutions, urges both sides to restate their commitment to the two-state solution and disavow officials who reject it, and asks the protagonists to “refrain from unilateral steps that prejudge the outcome of final status negotiations”.

Low point


Diplomats said there could also be an allusion to Trump’s plans.

Relations between the United States and Israel have soured during President Barack Obama’s administration, reaching a low point late last month when Washington declined to veto a UN resolution demanding an end to Israeli settlements in occupied territory.

Obama’s secretary of state, John Kerry, said the settlement programme threatened Middle East peace, and that the two-state was in “serious jeopardy”.

Palestinian President Authority Mahmoud Abbas said on Saturday that he had written to Trump warning that a move to Jerusalem would kill off the peace process and strip the United States of its role as honest broker - and could lead to the Palestinians going back on their recognition of Israel.

Home to Europe’s largest Muslim and Jewish communities, France has tried to breathe new life into the peace process over the past year. It believes that, with the uncertainty surrounding how the next US administration will handle the issue, it is important to push the sides back to talks rather than allowing a fragile status quo to fester.

But with elections coming up this year in France and Germany, and Britain appearing to align itself more closely with the Trump administration on the issue, the prospects of the European Union, the largest economic partner for both Israel and the Palestinians, taking a lead on the matter appear unlikely.

Arab states have their own concerns about how Trump’s relationship with them will turn out, and have taken a cautious line.

“All this is premature. We need to give the new US administration time to assess what they want to do,” said a Middle Eastern diplomat based in Paris.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/world...-east-peace/story-1PuZaWLg4xoNjcseLczYRN.html