Israel bars AESA radar export to India

[sandeepdg]

I also agree with Tshering ! If they want to play hardball, let us give them back in same way ! We should opt for an European AESA radar, plus if the Eurofighter wins, which is my favorite, I think they will agree to provide the radar for our LCA also. After all, its all business. 126 fighters + plus another 100+ AESA radars for LCAs. That will piss them of for sure, but they can't help it. As in war, everything's fair in business !

 

[JayATL]

let's reverse the roles here. Imagine, India is in a bid to sell its arms to a said country, the said country is going with someone else possibly, India pulls its offer to sell another piece of unrelated hardware desperately needed/ wanted by that country as leverage. Then is India bad to do so?

 

[LETHALFORCE]

I also agree with Tshering ! If they want to play hardball, let us give them back in same way ! We should opt for an European AESA radar, plus if the Eurofighter wins, which is my favorite, I think they will agree to provide the radar for our LCA also. After all, its all business. 126 fighters + plus another 100+ AESA radars for LCAs. That will piss them of for sure, but they can't help it. As in war, everything's fair in business !

Is the Selex a comparable AESA??

 

[sayareakd]

thanks we will make our own then you guys will come running selling everything, as always.....

 

[SHASH2K2]

let's reverse the roles here. Imagine, India is in a bid to sell its arms to a said country, the said country is going with someone else possibly, India pulls its offer to sell another piece of unrelated hardware desperately needed/ wanted by that country as leverage. Then is India bad to do so?

America already blocked sale of AESA and EW suite for Gripen and no one complained about that. What America has done now is not directyly related to MRCA . None of MRCA contendors are offering Israeli Radar now . In short USA has screwed LCA MK2 project.

 

[sayareakd]

In short USA has screwed LCA MK2 project.

yeah done the same with LCA MK1, we just dont say it. because of their engine.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

America already blocked sale of AESA and EW suite for Gripen and no one complained about that. What America has done now is not directyly related to MRCA . None of MRCA contendors are offering Israeli Radar now . In short USA has screwed LCA MK2 project.

Russians had offered Zhuk AESA

http://theasiandefence.blogspot.com/2009/09/zhuk-ae-x-band-aesa-radar-offered-to.html

Russia's Phazotron NIIR corporation said on Thursday it has developed a new-generation airborne radar for MiG-35 fighter jets which participate in the Indian fighter tender.Six major aircraft makers - Lockheed and Boeing from the United States, Russia's MiG, which is part of the UAC, France's Dassault, Sweden's Saab and the EADS consortium of British, German, Spanish and Italian companies - are in contention to win the $10 billion contract for 126 light fighters to be supplied to the Indian Air Force.


One of the selection criteria in the tender is that the fighter's radar must have an active phased array radar with a target detection range of at least 130 kilometers (about 80 miles)."We have met this requirement of the Indian tender and built the Zhuk-AE active phased array radar with a proven range of 148 kilometers," said Vyacheslav Tishchenko, the company's general director.The X-band radar can track 30 aerial targets in the track-while-scan mode, and engage six targets simultaneously in the attack mode.


Tishchenko said the detection range could be increased up to 200 km (125 miles).Russia's MiG-35 Fulcrum-F, an export version of the MiG-29M OVT is a highly maneuverable air superiority fighter, which won high international acclaim.The fighter is powered by RD-33 OVT thrust vectoring engines. The RD-33 OVT engines provide superior maneuverability and enhance the fighter's performance in close air engagements.The first demonstration flights of two MiG-35s in the Indian tender will be carried out in late October-early November in north-eastern India.The aircraft will conduct live-firing tests of on-board weaponry on a testing range in southern Russia in March-April 2010.

 

[Tshering22]

let's reverse the roles here. Imagine, India is in a bid to sell its arms to a said country, the said country is going with someone else possibly, India pulls its offer to sell another piece of unrelated hardware desperately needed/ wanted by that country as leverage. Then is India bad to do so?

The point is not whether US is doing right or wrong dude. The point is, it is affecting us. That is what people should be concerned about rather than worrying about ideological correctness and other stuff needless thoughts. The main issue here is that US is correct from corporate perspective and it is simply industrial politics that are beyond the control of normal people. But the point here one has to remember is not THEM.. it is WE that we should be thinking of.

This applies in almost every sector of our political/ military concern where we often tend to think what others are going to do too much rather than what WE should be doing as a counter..... all while the smart ones bag their prize and vamoose. But that's a different topic. As Indians we must not be talking about what benefits USA or any other country other than what benefits India. That is our priority. Basically here we're looking for BEST:

- multirole jet
- cost effective reasonably
- Having least political hiccups.

These are the three things we are supposed to be looking for. Not who's right or wrong by replacing the said country with our own and imagining a sequence which is nowhere close to reality at the moment or in the foreseeable future.

 

[nrj]

Huh.. EFT's planned AESA is not getting real till 2016. Active tests will happen later. It is even behind the schedule of Gripen NG's AESA. Talking about rest of Europe's AESA developers, I guess we already ditched them by directly selecting Elta while contestants like Thales, Selex were willing to co-operate.

Now what? since US showed ground reality, we should run around to MRCA contender countries to help in radar of MK2 & rest?? Too bad.

And why call for JV? Lets just buy those AESAs, off-the-shelf continuing the great Indian tradition.

let's reverse the roles here. Imagine, India is in a bid to sell its arms to a said country, the said country is going with someone else possibly, India pulls its offer to sell another piece of unrelated hardware desperately needed/ wanted by that country as leverage. Then is India bad to do so?

Rightly said. Hypocrites just don't understand the other side of business.

 

[SHASH2K2]

Russians had offered Zhuk AESA

http://theasiandefence.blogspot.com/2009/09/zhuk-ae-x-band-aesa-radar-offered-to.html

LF I think its for Su30 MKI upgrade package. Not sure how good it will be for a small fighter of LCA class. If we need to rework on AESA with Phaztron it will again require time and money . Anyways we are royally screwed.

 

[p2prada]

Is the Selex a comparable AESA??

They are comparable. But Israel has a better technology base. Superiority depends on how much you want the radar to do. Even if you get a 2KW AESA radar a BARS will obviously trump it on nearly all parameters.

 

[Tshering22]

Rightly said. Hypocrites just don't understand the other side of business.

Dude, are you concerned more about how correct or wrong the US is morally or whether we are getting affected negatively or positively? Here's an example; why is Pakistan called an enemy? Because he is there to harm us. In his books and the books of a third person or a strategic analyst, Pakistan is not an enemy but a country doing what it should to maintain its position geopolitically in South Asia.

Does that mean we should also start taking this analogy as ultimate truth and drop the enemy status of Pakistan?

Think.

 

[JayATL]

The point is not whether US is doing right or wrong dude. The point is, it is affecting us. That is what people should be concerned about rather than worrying about ideological correctness and other stuff needless thoughts. The main issue here is that US is correct from corporate perspective and it is simply industrial politics that are beyond the control of normal people. But the point here one has to remember is not THEM.. it is WE that we should be thinking of.

This applies in almost every sector of our political/ military concern where we often tend to think what others are going to do too much rather than what WE should be doing as a counter..... all while the smart ones bag their prize and vamoose. But that's a different topic. As Indians we must not be talking about what benefits USA or any other country other than what benefits India. That is our priority. Basically here we're looking for BEST:

- multirole jet
- cost effective reasonably
- Having least political hiccups.

These are the three things we are supposed to be looking for. Not who's right or wrong by replacing the said country with our own and imagining a sequence which is nowhere close to reality at the moment or in the foreseeable future.

I still don't get this zero sum attitude. the US is offering you technologies that is by far most generous than those offered to non NATO countries. Its' their technology and they have a right to pull it. Are Indians not getting a whole lot of other arms that you would never dreamt of having gotten from the US in the past? Nobody is disputing the fact they are leveraging their position BUT to call US blasphemous for pulling one radar out is a bit of stretch. India flexed it muscles over the US in many ways too, look at the NPT - refused to sign it , yet the US was the first country to come with a civilian nuclear deal in hand. All I'm saying is - don't get all riled up over a single piece of technology that did not belong to India ( birth right as its with NATO countries) to begin with...

the funniest part of all of this is- India has advanced AWACS and other such systems that will do the same over a country ( Pakistan) that is no way close to matching India's new military industrial complex

 

[nrj]

Dude, are you concerned more about how correct or wrong the US is morally or whether we are getting affected negatively or positively? Here's an example; why is Pakistan called an enemy? Because he is there to harm us. In his books and the books of a third person or a strategic analyst, Pakistan is not an enemy but a country doing what it should to maintain its position geopolitically in South Asia.

Does that mean we should also start taking this analogy as ultimate truth and drop the enemy status of Pakistan?

Think.

Sticking to the topic, I keep the perspective of business thinking & the power that one of the dealing party has got.

If you have not got your own technology, you are affected be it US or aliens.

Way to go APG79...!

 

[icecoolben]

First I had thought the Russians had shot themselves in the foot with Goskov price escalation and evicting India from Tajikistan. Then USA did it by denying Boeing and LM from consultancy.
The envelope has expanded to third parties like Israel. Its us Indians who are too stupid to see obvious facts that dangling a $ 10 billion carrot will bring us Strategic dividends.

I stick with my previous analysis that India should have just worked with EADS in the manner of a joint venture comany HAL-EADS Tejas to finish the product and deliver it to service. There are two categories of scientists in DRDO scientists and Babus who are designated scientists who love to be incharge and discharge tenders for radar, engine, display right down to the lact nut. The next time make a joint venture company with HAL-Tata strategic electronics - Kirloskar and L&T before working on amca.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_channel.jsp?channel=defense&id=news/GRIPEN042508.xml

Swedish Fighter Prototype Addresses Propulsion and Evaluates AESA

Gripen also has an AESA but this could also come under US pressure??

 

[Tshering22]

^^ There's a limit to how much pressure a fused out US can put on all competitors dude.LOL. Even SAAB that depends on US engines will refuse to budge its stand for the prize money here: $ 12 billion. Israel had it been more self-reliant would have shown the finger to Pentagon for this contract. Sweden is not Israel and it is unlikely that it will budge.

Europe still gives us an independent option.

The envelope has expanded to third parties like Israel.

Icecool, I kind of agree with your overall comment but Israel cannot do anything here since the AESA is funded by US firms and it is virtually helpless. If we had put in our cash and formed a JV with Israelis, US couldn't do jack even if it wanted to. This is our mistake that we've been repeating in not teaming up with Israel on serious weapons JVs. Barak-8 is the only thing. Had ADA focused on electronics as well with Israelis, we won't have come to this situation.

Though now it becomes all the more clear why we shouldn't buy US technology AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE. They are unreliable lot; always have been and their un reliability has costed many nations dearly. WE don't want to be their next test bed. The MRCA contract stands for some TOTs that are critical. Anyone not meeting the requirement gets the boot. That includes US. And US knows that it will not win in a fair competition. So it is trying to crush as many competitors as possible.

Technically Boeing and LM as private firms wouldn't mind selling us even the Raptors if we asked, but the US Congress calls the shots and they can't do anything. The Shivalik engines blocked also put GE and Congress on a collision course when the former was pressing the government to release the engines fast.

 

[smartindian]

I say, call the Israeli Ambassador and tell him that if the sale of the AESA radar is blocked, India would recognize Palestine as an independent country instantly.

Pun intended!

stop bouncing like a kid ...thats all i would say ... Its just a RADAR (decent one though) . Israel is providing better platform in other fields..we should not just start flame throw .Israel is co-operating and will co-operate in future too. Such radars will come again but strategic relationship will not. Israel had this tendency to use MEDIA reports to fool the world and do projects in dark room.

 

[Rahul Singh]

Regardless of how many road blocks US puts LCA MK-2 will get AESA MMR and will be non US. Yes Israel said no to any export of EL-2052 but we never asked to entire AESA. All LRDE want is T/R panel, processor and technical support during integration and testing. This is something Israel can do under non EL 2052 banner. In worst case ZUKE AE and RBE-2 will be the option. Regardless of anything MK-2 getting non US AESA is sure thing.

 

[icecoolben]

We are already developing/developed T/R modules as part of AWACS project, its IAF dragging asking for large Boeing, Airbus platform insted of present embraer thats delaying that project as well.

What do they expect the pakistanis would sit pretty when the IAF was inducting a 800 km search and track arieal platform. Its IAF's ad hoc nature and lack of any planning if not strategic is causing indegenisation efforts dearly.