Is Russia still our friend? Poll

[Samar Rathi]

1. But you are missing an important fact- China became an ally of USA as early as 1971 , under Nixon administration. But it took Deng Xioping in power in 1978 to open its markets, because Deng was a reformist. And he was able to do it because , a) China was not in the socialist camp, b) He himself was a reformer in that he saw that Socialism was taking China nowhere. China's market reforms would not have happened if either of (a) or (b) was false. India was in socialist camp even in 1991 and if USSR was still around, India would not have reformed even in 1996 or something

2. You are basically saying the same thing I was saying from the start.

Now you are saying china was not in socialist camp but he was and later jumped to USA bandwagon and of course the reason was socialism is a ideology where you keep poor people poor so they depends on the government for everything same as communism.

Now you are saying if USSR was still around then India won't leave socialism which is assumption and no one can predict what could have happen.China did it when USSR was there so why couldn't India do it ?

I suppose no one will know what could/should/would have happen and all we can do is assume.

 

[Samar Rathi]

The fact is that military cooperation between USA and india is an illusion created by some who are only interested in India's paltry military budget tied up in a few very expensive (buy militarily insignificant) procurements. This is best and cheapest way for the empire to cut india down to size.

USA can't afford their large navy and they are reducing it so they want a global leftenant in Indian ocean region to look for their interest. There is no military/political cooperation between USA and India but their is a intelligence/business level cooperation between two countries.

 

[Khagesh]

The military cooperation in Naval intel and surveillance is real and desired.

But yes on the whole the typical US reaction to anything that they could not themselves handle was to get others to join in. NPT, IMF, ShittyBitty, NATO, SEATO and all the other four letter words.

The position has changed a lot from the 50's position where they had 10000 nukes and all the others put together had less than 100, from a situation where US could take up 45% of the world economy, from a point where only they could exploit the seas and space and air.

US just enjoyed the interregnum between the end of colonialism and the start of a turn around in the erstwhile colonies and targeted old world. And they are already finding it harder by the day to hold on to those little enjoyments.

 

[sgarg]

USA can't afford their large navy and they are reducing it so they want a global leftenant in Indian ocean region to look for their interest. There is no military/political cooperation between USA and India but their is a intelligence/business level cooperation between two countries.

US can PRINT world's reserve currency. India cannot. India cannot afford American weapons as India does not have the money.

$650 million for 145 "light guns"! I asked my batch-mate who served in US Army for 20 years as if the buy made sense. He said that one American weapon system and that also in such low quantity will not make much difference. Also according to him, the ammo is as important as the gun. If the weapon is imported but the ammo is local, then the the result may not be as desired.

So end result is India buys 145 guns, then buys more, then buys ammo for these guns. The end result is a purchase that stretches into 10B+ dollars only for towed artillery pieces. Can anybody tell me where India will find this kind of money where Army's capital budget is like 3B per year.
And there is no localization so the gun warrants endless dependence on Americans. Is this dependence desirable?

On top of it, a towed gun is not a very complex or very latest technology. It is something that India can and must produce locally.

Such instances abound. Now compare with the artillery locating radars which India purchased on "urgent" basis, a need created by Kargil war. What happened. Why these radars are not usable? Did the army or the government found the reasons and rectify??

Our armed forces are very slow in ordering spares. Even when critical spares are identified, the process can be awfully slow. The officers are excited by new equipment buys, but maintenance is another matter. So equipment worth millions of dollars lies unused or unusable. Nobody sheds a single tear for that.

 

[sgarg]

The military cooperation in Naval intel and surveillance is real and desired.

What have we got so far? P8-I. I believe India paid 2 billion USD for 8 nos. P8I. How much Pakistan paid for P3C?? Pakistan pays NATO rates FROM AID MONEY. That is Pakistani buys are not only free, the reference price is same as one for NATO countries (special rate).
In contrast India pays full commercial price which typically includes not only manufacturer profit margin but also a fees charged by US Government.

Such is the SPECIAL STRATEGIC RELATIONSHIP between USA and India.

 

[Samar Rathi]

US can PRINT world's reserve currency. India cannot. India cannot afford American weapons as India does not have the money.

$650 million for 145 "light guns"! I asked my batch-mate who served in US Army for 20 years as if the buy made sense. He said that one American weapon system and that also in such low quantity will not make much difference. Also according to him, the ammo is as important as the gun. If the weapon is imported but the ammo is local, then the the result may not be as desired.

So end result is India buys 145 guns, then buys more, then buys ammo for these guns. The end result is a purchase that stretches into 10B+ dollars only for towed artillery pieces. Can anybody tell me where India will find this kind of money where Army's capital budget is like 3B per year.
And there is no localization so the gun warrants endless dependence on Americans. Is this dependence desirable?

On top of it, a towed gun is not a very complex or very latest technology. It is something that India can and must produce locally.

Such instances abound. Now compare with the artillery locating radars which India purchased on "urgent" basis, a need created by Kargil war. What happened. Why these radars are not usable? Did the army or the government found the reasons and rectify??

Our armed forces are very slow in ordering spares. Even when critical spares are identified, the process can be awfully slow. The officers are excited by new equipment buys, but maintenance is another matter. So equipment worth millions of dollars lies unused or unusable. Nobody sheds a single tear for that.

I totally 100% with you and prefer indigenous weapons but what's the point of quoting me ?

 

[Khagesh]

What have we got so far? P8-I. I believe India paid 2 billion USD for 8 nos. P8I. How much Pakistan paid for P3C?? Pakistan pays NATO rates FROM AID MONEY. That is Pakistani buys are not only free, the reference price is same as one for NATO countries (special rate).
In contrast India pays full commercial price which typically includes not only manufacturer profit margin but also a fees charged by US Government.

Such is the SPECIAL STRATEGIC RELATIONSHIP between USA and India.

There is nothing special about P8I except the fact that we don't have any other way of getting something like it. If we attempt it on our own we will take a lot of time, given the WIP in hand. But I think things like this should be attempted now within India.

In any case, these things would normally have been a restricted item for India. Which is ok. I don't mind it. Bhaagte bhoot ki langot bhali.

Pakistan is a special case scenario for USA. It is the handle that US and China have on us. Or at least that is what they believe. So it is expected off them to be supporting Pakis in that manner.

 

[prohumanity]

Knowledge of true history of last 40 years can help remove the disagreements above. Some facts of history (1) Until 1960s..China and USSR were close partners (both socialists) and India was confused which path to acquire so it opted for "mixed economy" and "non alignment"
(2) In late 60s; ideological divisions started between USSR and China...USSR wanted heavy Industry based economy where China opted for Agriculture and small scale based economy. (3) In 1972, Richard Nixon told Chinese that US is willing to give China anything in return for support to defeat USSR
Chinese president said..all we want is jobs and prosperity for Chinese people....Thus, a deal was signed and China became "the most favored nation" as all consumer goods made in China will be bought by US and investments from west flooded Chinese economy. Then, in 1980s, India ..under Indira Gandhi started tilting toward USSR to balance a stronger Axis between USA+ China+ Pakistan. Chinese economy was growing furiously and Russian economy suffered badly due to invasion of Afghanistan and Internal fightings among various ethnic groups in USSR, leading to break up of Soviet Union.
Suddenly, there was only a sole superpower was left who under the guidance of Richard Nixon's strategy to dominate and control the entire world turned to invasions, proxy wars and other interference. READ Richard Nixon's famous book "SEIZE THE MOMENT" to understand this policy.
After 1992, India had to re-balance its ties and moved towards West somewhat ..just like what Russia had to do to greater extent under Prez. Gobachev and Prez. Yeltsin. Here after years come strong and patriotic folks like Prez. Putin and PM Modi. At the same time, China and US kept growing apart and West decided "China Containment Policy" to keep China down and under pressure. World politics in a great flux..keep watching carefully.

 

[sgarg]

There is nothing special about P8I except the fact that we don't have any other way of getting something like it. If we attempt it on our own we will take a lot of time, given the WIP in hand. But I think things like this should be attempted now within India.

In any case, these things would normally have been a restricted item for India. Which is ok. I don't mind it. Bhaagte bhoot ki langot bhali.

Pakistan is a special case scenario for USA. It is the handle that US and China have on us. Or at least that is what they believe. So it is expected off them to be supporting Pakis in that manner.

The sword-edge of Pakistan or the weapons that will be used against India are mostly American, not Russian. Still some posters jump wildly on this forum regarding small Russian sales to Pakistan of largely non-combat equipment. I find it funny. It is clear that Russia will aim at improving relations with Pakistan if it is improving relations with China. There is good logic there. Having said that, Russian actions in Pakistan are quite harmless for India. The same cannot be said about American actions in Pakistan which are directed most against India. Still to some blockheads, USA is a FRIEND while Russia is a non-FRIEND. This is the illogic that permeates a section of Indians.

 

[sgarg]

Russia sees unfriendly attitude of Indians and obviously the unpleasantness creeps into dealings. One of my past bosses said a million dollar statement "it is important to have a positive attitude with external stakeholders if contract is to be executed well". You have entered into a contract with Russians because you need that goods or service. After signing the contract, you keep on pushing pushing and use language that is unfriendly. How is the relationship going to work? Indians can be very un-businessmen like (very unfriendly and rude) sometimes. Most government and PSU types just do not have soft skills (like good communication and art of contract writing).

There is no point in blaming external parties when your entire system is so screwed up. And mind it, it is not only Russians, the same goes on with many other parties as well. Somehow Western means only UK and USA to our military-men.

 

[Zebra]

^^

That is emotional atyachar. IMHO.

 

[Razor]

Wrong thread, sorry sensei.

 

[Aravind Sanjeev]

I have seen a video where US ex-secretary of the state saying they are trying to separate India from China and Russia.
They where also bashing BRICS. I think it well defines.

By the way, Janatha Party was anti-soviet but it might be nullified by now.

 

[tharun]

Russians state of mind is
If someone copies their fighter jets they dont give a damn
but if we ask pemission to modernizse their jets with our parts they goes mad.

 

[brational]

Russia is China's friend. Their Victory Day has proved it all. Sooner we get over from Russian friendship, the better we will play off Iin world affair.

 

[sgarg]

Russia wants to be friends with India. Russia can be friend with China and India at the same time. Russia can be a bridging force between China and India.

GOI wants to have a workable relationship with China. There is a genuine effort at GOI level to develop such a relationship.

I have said before that India does not view its Russia relationship from the angle of its China relationship. India will continue to have a healthy relationship with Russia.

 

[sgarg]

It is not correct to quote a few transactions to build a case against Russia. We have seen in many audits that Indian bureaucracy can be painfully slow. Blaming a foreign partner is possible only if contractual obligations are violated. To get there, we need good bureaucracy in India, specially expert procurement officers well versed in the art of drafting contracts. Unfortunately Indians fail here.

 

[Singh]

Where is @Yusuf
He posted a serious of tweets

 

[SajeevJino]

Russia wants to be friends with India. Russia can be friend with China and India at the same time. Russia can be a bridging force between China and India.

How a third country act as friends to two enemy nations, In case of war Russians supports to whom..which friend .?

GOI wants to have a workable relationship with China. There is a genuine effort at GOI level to develop such a relationship.

I don't think so, Recent developments with Counter Friendships and Infrastructure boost in Northeastern Borders, Intrests in South China seems , Not so Friendly

I have said before that India does not view its Russia relationship from the angle of its China relationship. India will continue to have a healthy relationship with Russia.

Healthy Relationship, we have better word aware of Russian Friendship

 

[Zebra]

Where is @Yusuf
He posted a serious of tweets

He wrote on one of those tweets, (something like) ....... this time be on right side.