Is India really over populated?

abhi_the _gr8_maratha

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Yes,. India is overpopulated but India is improving despite that when overpopulation is actually worsening and hence India is overpopulated. makes so much sense:sarcastic:.

Seriously guys, why is it so hard for you people to actually consider things from a neutral unbiased perspective
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Glint

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Yes,. India is overpopulated but India is improving despite that when overpopulation is actually worsening and hence India is overpopulated. makes so much sense:sarcastic:.

Seriously guys, why is it so hard for you people to actually consider things from a neutral unbiased perspective
Um, That's exactly what i meant :/ Not being biased or anything

I saw a video which was comparing the population of the world, It showed if we dump all humans in Grand canyon, It wouldn't even fill it up. So my point being is. There's enough space for everyone in India. The real deal is providing stuff for them :)
 
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Peter

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Um, That's exactly what i meant :/ Not being biased or anything

I saw a video which was comparing the population of the world, It showed if we dump all humans in Grand canyon, It wouldn't even fill it up. So my point being is. There's enough space for everyone in India. The real deal is providing stuff for them :)
I live in Kolkata and let me tell you a truth. India is quite overpopulated and overcrowded. You live in LA,California so I think you unfortunately have only "heard" these words but never realized its true meaning.:)rofl:) Population control should be one of India`s priorities. India has to become a great nation and for that population control is indeed required.
 

Peter

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@Mad Indian do check the rankings and please reply. I am just politely asking.
 
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Glint

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My hometown is Mumbai, So i kinda know what i'm talking about, Of course its gonna be overcrowded in some places that doesn't mean that India is full of people. Yeah if you compare it to the world then its overpopulated but not in a bad way :)
 

rock127

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India is overpopulated! India SHOULD control population! Why does this question arise at first?

It needs to be controlled but there are some communities which doesn't believe in this and populating like rats is their motto.

India does not have vast resources like US/China/Russia to support itself.
 

Bangalorean

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@Mad Indian, @Sakal Gharelu Ustad:

You cannot succeed while chasing a moving target. Population cannot be allowed to be a constantly moving target or we will never get there.

Many people of lower economic strata have several kids as you know. Are you telling me that this trend is not a problem? Even they have realized that they are better off with less kids, and the trend has changed in the current generation.

Let us look at the micro-picture for a moment, leaving macroeconomics aside, in a rather crude fashion.

If you have one sibling, and your father leaves behind a flat worth Rs. 50 lakh, you will get Rs. 25 lakh, enough to wipe out all your debts. If you have 4 siblings, you will get Rs. 10 lakh. Not enough to wipe out your debts, maybe enough to reduce your principal amount by a bit.

Crude example, but multiply this several times over, in millions of families throughout the country. Your material progress and prosperity will grow further and faster with less people to share the pie with.

There is a company, say a desi sweatshop like Infosys. For an entry-level IT coolie opening, they currently offer Rs. 30000 per month. If there is a supply of 1000 struggling engineers for the job instead of 200, the offer would be Rs. 6000 per month. Demand and supply. Your argument is that supply will also be greater (more Infys will come up in India and absorb the excess talent). But you forget that there is no space for more Infys now. It will take decades to make the existence of more Infys viable. If more Infys come up today, they will compete for the existing pie, say $500 million of IT services business. Each company will generate less revenue, and will be proportionately smaller, so you're back to square one.

And by the time conditions are viable for the existence of multiple Infys, your available talent pool has increased even more. Because your increasing population is a moving target. Back to square one.

And note: I haven't even touched upon the subject of limited resources etc. because I know the counter-arguments you will provide. :) I have limited my arguments to size of the pie and the futility of chasing a moving target.
 
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Peter

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@Mad Indian, @Sakal Gharelu Ustad:

You cannot succeed while chasing a moving target. Population cannot be allowed to be a constantly moving target or we will never get there.

Many people of lower economic strata have several kids as you know. Are you telling me that this trend is not a problem? Even they have realized that they are better off with less kids, and the trend has changed in the current generation.

Let us look at the micro-picture for a moment, leaving macroeconomics aside, in a rather crude fashion.

If you have one sibling, and your father leaves behind a flat worth Rs. 50 lakh, you will get Rs. 25 lakh, enough to wipe out all your debts. If you have 4 siblings, you will get Rs. 10 lakh. Not enough to wipe out your debts, maybe enough to reduce your principal amount by a bit.

Crude example, but multiply this several times over, in millions of families throughout the country. Your material progress and prosperity will grow further and faster with less people to share the pie with.

There is a company, say a desi sweatshop like Infosys. For an entry-level IT coolie opening, they currently offer Rs. 30000 per month. If there is a supply of 1000 struggling engineers for the job instead of 200, the offer would be Rs. 6000 per month. Demand and supply. Your argument is that supply will also be greater (more Infys will come up in India and absorb the excess talent). But you forget that there is no space for more Infys now. It will take decades to make the existence of more Infys viable. If more Infys come up today, they will compete for the existing pie, say $500 million of IT services business. Each company will generate less revenue, and will be proportionately smaller, so you're back to square one.

And by the time conditions are viable for the existence of multiple Infys, your available talent pool has increased even more. Because your increasing population is a moving target. Back to square one.

And note: I haven't even touched upon the subject of limited resources etc. because I know the counter-arguments you will provide. :) I have limited my arguments to size of the pie and the futility of chasing a moving target.
Nice analysis by you. That is what I said to Mad Indian with the farmer example which may have been a bit crude. However you have put it in a more factual manner.

The truth is our country already has enough quantity but now it needs the quality. We are not like France,(Western European) countries etc which have the quality but lack the quantity. India needs a more strict family planning asap.
 
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Sakal Gharelu Ustad

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@Mad Indian, @Sakal Gharelu Ustad:

You cannot succeed while chasing a moving target. Population cannot be allowed to be a constantly moving target or we will never get there.

Many people of lower economic strata have several kids as you know. Are you telling me that this trend is not a problem? Even they have realized that they are better off with less kids, and the trend has changed in the current generation.

Let us look at the micro-picture for a moment, leaving macroeconomics aside, in a rather crude fashion.

If you have one sibling, and your father leaves behind a flat worth Rs. 50 lakh, you will get Rs. 25 lakh, enough to wipe out all your debts. If you have 4 siblings, you will get Rs. 10 lakh. Not enough to wipe out your debts, maybe enough to reduce your principal amount by a bit.

Crude example, but multiply this several times over, in millions of families throughout the country. Your material progress and prosperity will grow further and faster with less people to share the pie with.

There is a company, say a desi sweatshop like Infosys. For an entry-level IT coolie opening, they currently offer Rs. 30000 per month. If there is a supply of 1000 struggling engineers for the job instead of 200, the offer would be Rs. 6000 per month. Demand and supply. Your argument is that supply will also be greater (more Infys will come up in India and absorb the excess talent). But you forget that there is no space for more Infys now. It will take decades to make the existence of more Infys viable. If more Infys come up today, they will compete for the existing pie, say $500 million of IT services business. Each company will generate less revenue, and will be proportionately smaller, so you're back to square one.

And by the time conditions are viable for the existence of multiple Infys, your available talent pool has increased even more. Because your increasing population is a moving target. Back to square one.

And note: I haven't even touched upon the subject of limited resources etc. because I know the counter-arguments you will provide. :) I have limited my arguments to size of the pie and the futility of chasing a moving target.
My reply through a figure:


Replace usefulness-kids/person on the y-x axis. And it follows the graph you mentioned. If you get time, watch the video I posted on last page.

If you have siblings you learn many more things. It is not just about funding a 50lakh flat. For the micro-perspective again watch the video by Landsburg. You believe the total pie is constant while I do not. More population also means increasing the pie.
 
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Peter

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My reply through a figure:


Replace usefulness-kids/person on the y-x axis. And it follows the graph you mentioned. If you get time, watch the video I posted on last page.

If you have siblings you learn many more things. It is not just about funding a 50lakh flat. For the micro-perspective again watch the video by Landsburg. You believe the total pie is constant while I do not. More population also means increasing the pie.
I am no expert on this matters and so I am accepting this. However Mad Indian did not provide correct rankings in all cases. Do check out the wikipedia link. While I admit that a large population has advantages but India already has a huge population. Now we need better facilities which I believe cannot be achieved with a growing population.
 

Bangalorean

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My reply through a figure:


Replace usefulness-kids/person on the y-x axis. And it follows the graph you mentioned. If you get time, watch the video I posted on last page.

If you have siblings you learn many more things. It is not just about funding a 50lakh flat. For the micro-perspective again watch the video by Landsburg. You believe the total pie is constant while I do not. More population also means increasing the pie.
I do not believe that the pie is constant, neither do I believe that economics is a zero-sum game.

But I do believe, strongly, that increasing the pie takes time, effort and a lot of national commitment. It can and should be done, but increasing the pie will work to increase overall standards of living only if the population which the pie needs to be divided amongst, is not a moving target.

I strongly disagree that more population means increasing the pie!! Certainly not! More population means ever smaller slices of the pie. More population necessitates further increase of the pie size, ad infinitum.
 

Sakal Gharelu Ustad

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I do not believe that the pie is constant, neither do I believe that economics is a zero-sum game.

But I do believe, strongly, that increasing the pie takes time, effort and a lot of national commitment. It can and should be done, but increasing the pie will work to increase overall standards of living only if the population which the pie needs to be divided amongst, is not a moving target.

I strongly disagree that more population means increasing the pie!! Certainly not! More population means ever smaller slices of the pie. More population necessitates further increase of the pie size, ad infinitum.
But the question that Mad Indian raised was- Is India over-populated? Are the miseries of India related to its over-population?

I think the answer to both the above questions is- NO. Although I do understand your concerns. But I think having 2-3 kids per couple is an optimum number socially.
 

Bangalorean

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But the question that Mad Indian raised was- Is India over-populated? Are the miseries of India related to its over-population?

I think the answer to both the above questions is- NO. Although I do understand your concerns. But I think having 2-3 kids per couple is an optimum number socially.
The miseries of India are in part, due to over-population, but that is by no means the sole cause.

2.1 children per couple is the optimum number. The 0.1 allowance is to account for unforeseen events like unnatural and accidental deaths etc. Replacement fertility level. Anything above that will result in population growth that tends to infinity.
 

Sakal Gharelu Ustad

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The miseries of India are in part, due to over-population, but that is by no means the sole cause.

2.1 children per couple is the optimum number. The 0.1 allowance is to account for unforeseen events like unnatural and accidental deaths etc. Replacement fertility level. Anything above that will result in population growth that tends to infinity.
The miseries are because we mated like rats while Indira Gandhi took the economy for socialism over-drive. Had we changed Nehruvian ways at the time like Asian tigers, we would not have been discussing it.
 

Bangalorean

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The miseries are because we mated like rats while Indira Gandhi took the economy for socialism over-drive. Had we changed Nehruvian ways at the time like Asian tigers, we would not have been discussing it.
Precisely, and the paradox is, if we had changed our Nehruvian ways at that time, our population growth would have stabilized, and people would not have bred like rats. Increasing economic prosperity and resultant increase in urbanization, liberalism and exposure to education and modern ideas would have changed the face of the nation, as has been happening for the last 20 years.
 

thakur_ritesh

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I agree, a lot of economic woes go back to the Nehruvian Socialism, but could that be the whole sole problem, what if India had been on the right of center on economic policies right from the start, and where do factor in the population in all this?

I take Nehruvian Socialism as a part of the problem, India was engulfed in a lot of turmoil back in days after independence, the fear of the 'unknown foreigner' persisted, BJP and the left as late as 2013 debated this fear and psyched up people when the FDI in retail was being discussed, and people echoed, shouting the re-emergence of the East India Company, on this very forum, some very well educated, and excellent debaters were taken in by the sentiment, now imagine the complexities back in those days when the lala, the private investor and the foreigner were seen in no different light, and a population that was 80% illiterate and those literate, hardly understood the A of economics, more importantly, the extremist left trying to grab power. I believe, a line somewhere had to be drawn, and Nehru took the middle path, neither here not there, a typical of Indian mindset, and not as much a typical of Nehru, of course this later was to be associated with him alone.

I do not as much blame Nehru, as I do Indira. This lady had all going for her, and all she did, she brought in more regressive economic policies, and it was during her time, the left seized the power in West Bengal, which further pulled India back. The common theme became the unions, and her reaction to it was violent initially, and then become a part of the process, this lady ruined India the most, economically. The concept of elitism was developed in her era, corruption seeped into the system deep in her time, grab the power at any cost was introduced by her, and in doing all this, when India should have moved to the right on economic policies, she took us more to the left, and by then the second socialist generation was developing ideas, and they were being fed more socialism. India's think tank literally became the JNU in Delhi, and this was the time when your average to top bureaucrat had to be a JNU pass out, and now not only did we have a regressive leader at the top, but a complete body of bureaucracy that was left leaning but elitist.

Of all the Gandhis, one who was really keen on shaping a new India, was Rajiv, made a decent start but succumbed to the antics of power all too soon, nor did he ever get a second chance.

Population has to be a factored in, and the beliefs of the population. Can you enlighten a crude mindset overnight, only a miracle would do, no man can! Our population was no different, and a decent part, still is. Nehru was no miracle man. We were a deeply casteist society, and had fixated minds on who would do what, nor would people be ready to work with any and everyone. To shake up this mindset, it would have meant time, and so more blame heads Indira's way, for she was sitting on the luxury of time, her dad never had. We hardly fared well in education, and thankfully, because of Nehru, we had top level educational facility, whatever was of it. The other, this was a struggling class, looking for secured jobs, that provided them security, would these people have taken to private jobs as easily, do not forget, even today a private job is not as highly looked up to as is a "secured" government job in India.

Over population is a concern, and when you singularly look at it, yes Nehru comes off as a villian. The most simple answer seems be on the right of center for economic policies, and all would have been fixed with India being a thriving society. Fair enough but for this Nehru or any leader at the helm of affairs would have to be an out right authoritarian, where no opposition would have been tolerated, a very strong military ready to toe state's and the leader's ideology, and basically shape up the country as this leader would have wanted, and yes I agree, a lot of nonsense in this country is because there is too much freedom, and this freedom is taken for granted by one and all! But look at the bigger picture, would we have been able to sustain even as a nation, let alone think about economic policies? Would a South Indian or a North Eastern have taken to the dictates of a North Indian of vice-versa on cultural issues, because an authoritarian would have flirted with all the issues and tried and make them his way!

Imagine if Modi would have happened to India a couple of decades ago, would the Indians have taken to him as he has been now? Would his economic policies have had as much sway? I do not think so. Things and situations evolve. May be we would have had huge economic development by now, but we would have been debating freedom, cursing, having moved from the Mugals to the Brits to a dictator!
 

xuxu

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Over populated or not, depend on what the country can provide "Subsistence" for its people, rich Japan(90% living in city), EU, Singapore etc buy all source from the world and sell high value-added goods to provide living subsistence。
Can India provide food, electricity, petroleum, transportation, education, health care, toilets, housing for its people? and Job for its people?
 

pmaitra

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The Nehruvian socialism, for all its ills, gave India what India needed at that time the most.

India made great strides in healthcare, and life expectancy increased. India also made strides in food security. By the 80s, India has made great strides in these two areas, due to which, there was a population explosion. It is still happening.

What India could not do, and is impossible to achieve, is enforcing a one child or two children policy. It worked in PRC, which is why, they are better off than us. In a truly socialist-cum-authoritarian state, this would have been possible. India was socialist but free country, and such policies just wouldn't have worked.

We keep blaming the past, or blaming socialism, but have we ever seriously discussed what would have happened had we adopted a different approach to nation-building? We seem content with this quasi-national pastime of shifting the blame.

Yes, our population is a bane. To answer @Mad Indian, yes, it is a handicap for the country. Now, let's see what we can do going forward, instead of cribbing over the past.
 
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jamesvaikom

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Here guys is the ranking of the countries by Physiological Density of Population

What is Physiological Density?

The physiological density or real population density is the number of people per unit area of arable land.[1]

A higher physiological density suggests that the available agricultural land is being used by more and may reach its output limit sooner than a country that has a lower physiological density.


List of countries by real population density based on food growing capacity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So the countries in the list which have a worse Physiological Density than India but have a better standard of living than India are(Excluding the oil exporting countries)-

1. Singapore(this can be excluded as a case of being a small trade oriented country)
2. Iceland - 4229/sq.km of arable land
3. South Korea - 2998/sq.km of arable land
4. Taiwan - 2932/sq.km of arable land
5. Japan- 2924/sq.km of arable land
6. Netherlands- 2205//sq.km of arable land
7. Israel- 2147/sq.km of arable land
8. Columbia- 2064//sq.km of arable land
9. Switzerland - 1900/sq.km of arable land
10. Costa Rica -1803/sq.km of arable land
11. Malaysia - 1336/sq.km of arable land
12. Belgium- 1248/sq.km of arable land
13. Slovania - 1170/sq.km of arable land
14. United kingdom - 1077/sq.km of arable land
15. China - 943/sq.km of arable land
16. Liechestien - 843/sq.km of arable land
17. Luxumbourg - ~750//sq.km of arable land
18. Italy- ~750/sq.km of arable land

Note that, I have not included countries which I thought was insignificant or only marginally better than us like Indonesia, Srilanka(Which is better than us after a fukcing Civil war), Hong Kong etc, nor have I included the Oil exporters like Saudi, Kuwait, Qatar, Venezuela etc just to avoid the confounding variable.


So Now tell me why are we still whining about over population and giving it as an excuse when clearly, countries much more voer populated than us have succeeded much better?

All our ills are caused by misgovernance of 5 decades of CON(edit)d their misplaced socialism. Population was just a bogey to hide the incompetance of the Nehru clan and its shitty socialist policies. TO be frank, we would have sucked even if we had only a population of 2 crores instead of the present 125. But we can thrive even with 300 crore population if we utilize our potential to the maximum through capitalism.

@pmaitra @Sakal Gharelu Ustad @Bangalorean @parijataka @Ray @Razor @TrueSpirit1 @Cliff@sea @arkem8 @LurkerBaba

PS: I know this requires a lot of outside the box thinking and goes against the years of indoctrination against over population, but atleast give it a thought
I agree that these countries don't have huge oil reserves. But unlike India these countries are less dependent on agriculture. Our arable land will also reduce if we give importance to industrialization. Your points will become valid only if world becomes over dependent on agriculture. I don't think that will happen. We can cultivate crops again and again in same land. But things we import depreciate according to consumption. High population growth will only help Middle East countries get cheap work force and high demand for their oil. This will help terrorists get more funds from Middle East countries. In past it was easy for politicians to fool poor people. But now that is changing. If population of poor people increase then that will cause more burden on middle class.
 
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TrueSpirit1

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Over-populated or under-populated are all relative terms. But, as a workforce, our productivity is quite low due to the systems we inherited (relentlessly feudalistic in guise of socialism). Once we go about 360 degree institutional reforms (electoral, judiciary, bureaucratic, police, tax & monetary reforms, etc.), we would score much higher on this count (productivity). And, that is all that counts.

Most of the vexing ills we face, would get taken care of, automatically.
 

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