Is Eurofighter Typhoon also out of the MMRCA-2 game?

[Akask kumar]

F22 is operated only by USAF, so its less capable. Does this argument makes some logic ?

F22 is a 5th generation stealth craft-USA will not sell it to any nation no matter how much they offer , not ment for export.While Rafale was made for money gain , many countries refused it for one big reason PRICE,
even in india they kept on increasing the price and we reduced the numbers from 100+ to 36..

this craft cant go beyond mach 1.8

i will add just one more pint - rafale is just operated by its manufacturer france in europe forget india ,africa etc.even european countries havnt bought this craft.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

F22 is a 5th generation stealth craft-USA will not sell it to any nation npdftter how much they offer , not ment for export.While Rafale was made for money gain , many countries refused it for one big reason PRICE,
even in india they kept on increasing the price and we reduced the numbers from 100+ to 36..

this craft cant go beyond mach 1.8

i will add just one more pint - rafale is just operated by its manufacturer france in europe forget india ,africa etc.even european countries havnt bought this craft.

For the capabilities of Rafale , well the easiest way to compare Rafale, Eurofighter and SAAB is to go through the released PDF of the competitive trials by Switzerland. Its comprehensive and does good comparison about all the facets of air warfare. It all takes into account the present and under development capabilities of the candidates.

You might face some difficulty if its in Swiss , however there was a translated one too.

Coming about you claim of speed , see on an average mission , say for ground support ,a F16 may carry some GBU12/Pave way/JDAM , 1 pod , a pair of AIM9 for self defence and external fuel tanks . And this is not fully loaded to the capacity of aircraft.Do you know what the average range of speed will be ? It will range from 0.8-1.4 Mach. While in pure A2A configuration , 1.0-1.6 Mach.
Same is the case for F15SE , the top speed is not what the aircraft flies on , its the speed at which an empty aircraft can go for with full after burner for few minutes. Its totally irrelevant in today's warfare , during cold war an aircraft flying above 20,000 feet with Mach2.0 Speed was important , because that meant the aircraft was relatively safe from a wide assortment of SAMs. But today when we have Mach4.0 As the starting top speed of most SAMs,that feature is not a factor.

Last on the price of Rafale, I am again saying , have a look at the F18SH deal of Australia , EF2000 deal of Saudi and Kuwait and SAAB offer to Switzerland. The Rafale more than justifies its cost.

As for the number of operators. You know Germany has the best SPH in the world , but M109 is the most widely used one. This by no means say that M109 is even comparable to the German system.

Arms sales involve a lot of politics.

For example the recent Australia Submarine deal, The type 216 concept would beat the French offer on price and capabilities too, in addition to local production , but Australia went for France given the pressure from US.

 

[Zebra]

...................Last on the price of Rafale, I am again saying , have a look at the F18SH deal of Australia , EF2000 deal of Saudi and Kuwait and SAAB offer to Switzerland. The Rafale more than justifies its cost.......................

Btw, what was the price of F/A-18's each air-frame in that deal?

For example the recent Australia Submarine deal, The type 216 concept would beat the French offer on price and capabilities too, in addition to local production , but Australia went for France given the pressure from US.

Elaborate please that red color part and any article to back your claim.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

Btw, what was the price of F/A-18's each air-frame in that deal?

http://web.archive.org/web/20110312....gov.au/NelsonMinSpeechtpl.cfm?CurrentId=6442

6 Billion Australian Dollars ~ 4.5 Billion USD in 2007 ( Add inflation of near 10 years ). Further the 24 aircrafts buy needed only money for weapons and maintenance, as the infrastructure and training for F-18s were already there. And that amount was quoted only for 10 years.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

Elaborate please that red color part and any article to back your claim.

Article ? NO direct one but the news about the surprise at TKMS when they were debriefed about the deal and decision , further Germanys offer was superior given that Germany offered to build the submarines in Australia without any extra penny ( something which was considered very important by Australia few months ago ) , the cost was less ( no reference was given by Australia about cost of other contenders and then look slightly north of Australia towards Singapore where a similar competition albeit a low profile one happened ) and lastly the Type 216 concept was better , yet they went for an design on paper .

 

[Zebra]

http://web.archive.org/web/20110312....gov.au/NelsonMinSpeechtpl.cfm?CurrentId=6442

6 Billion Australian Dollars ~ 4.5 Billion USD in 2007 ( Add inflation of near 10 years ). Further the 24 aircrafts buy needed only money for weapons and maintenance, as the infrastructure and training for F-18s were already there. And that amount was quoted only for 10 years.

From where you get inflation in it....!

The total cost with training and support over 10 years was expected to be A$6 billion (US$4.6 billion).

Anyway, what about cost of ToT ? They paid big amount for it.

What about cost of Growler aircrafts and others as Growler ready aircrafts....?

No matter what, they are getting new aircrafts storage and all new state of the art maintenance facilities also.

What about that cost...!

On top of it , they bought six spare GE engines. Add that cost too.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

From where you get inflation in it....!

The total cost with training and support over 10 years was expected to be A$6 billion (US$4.6 billion).

Anyway, what about cost of ToT ? They paid big amount for it.

What about cost of Growler aircrafts and others as Growler ready aircrafts....?

No matter what, they are getting new aircrafts storage and all new state of the art maintenance facilities also.

What about that cost...!

On top of it , they bought six spare GE engines. Add that cost too.

1. For comparison of the price relative to 2016, you have got to add inflation .

2. No TOT was involved in Australian deal , they won't pay for it.

3.The cost of spares included comes at 4.5 Billion USD for 10 years, it includes 300million dollars or 220 USD for 6 engines too.

4.The deal for growlers are separate. 24 Super Hornets bought in 2007, all delivered. A separate deal for 12 Growlers , 11 still to be delivered.

5. The cost of weapons and training will only be there for new 24 aircrafts. You see we will not need to invest in more infrastructure for operating upgraded Flankers.

All in all no fighter jet ( 4+ gen ) today will cost less than 100 million USD ( excluding everything ) , except Russian ones. ( If we get our flankers built in Russia , they will cost 15~25% less )

 

[Zebra]

2. No TOT was involved in Australian deal , they won't pay for it.

Sir, not correct.

1. For comparison of the price relative to 2016, you have got to add inflation .
3.The cost of spares included comes at 4.5 Billion USD for 10 years, it includes 300million dollars or 220 USD for 6 engines too.

4.The deal for growlers are separate. 24 Super Hornets bought in 2007, all delivered. A separate deal for 12 Growlers , 11 still to be delivered.

5. The cost of weapons and training will only be there for new 24 aircrafts. You see we will not need to invest in more infrastructure for operating upgraded Flankers.

All in all no fighter jet ( 4+ gen ) today will cost less than 100 million USD ( excluding everything ) , except Russian ones. ( If we get our flankers built in Russia , they will cost 15~25% less )

Sir, check the facts first, I am afraid.

This might help. -------> http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com...er-hornets-as-interim-gapfiller-to-jsf-02898/

 

[Ankit Kumar]

Sir, not correct.



Sir, check the facts first, I am afraid.

This might help. -------> http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com...er-hornets-as-interim-gapfiller-to-jsf-02898/

The link is asking me a login.
Anyway , well that 24 aircrafts bought after 2007 had no TOT involved. It was the first 71 F/A18s which were licensed produced from 90s.

And my source of 24 Super Hornets and 12 separate Growlers is World Airforces 2015
It lists Australia operating 24 Super Hornets + 1 Growler and shows 11 Growlers under order.

Also do point which specific point is wrong.

I think this will help http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/a...-ea-18g-growler-aircraft/article/feed/2095246

 

[smestarz]

France is a neutral power correct, Neutered by America.
Now let us see the example of F-16 and Mirage 2000, we can always debate which is better.
But countries know that if USA is buying a plane, they will surely support it for long. If F-16 and Mirage 2000 started during the same time/era, F-16 has developed into plane that can carry most of USA A2G missiles even A2A missiles and has an AESA.

Let us do some analysis
F16
First flight 20 January 1974
Introduction 17 August 1978
Primary users United States Air Force
25 other users (see operators page)
Produced 1973–present
Number built 4,540+[1]


Mirage 2000
First flight 10 March 1978[1]
Introduction November 1982[2]
Status In service
Primary users French Air Force
United Arab Emirates Air Force
Republic of China Air Force
Indian Air Force
Produced 1978–2007
Number built 601[3]

Thus on one hand, is an older product F-16 which has evolved into MRCA with an AESA and still supported by USA and Lockheed, On other hand Mirage 2000 production has stopped over a decade. Upgrades .. lol cost almost twice the cost of the plane,

Now Mirage 2000 had 8 users, out of which 4 still use F-16. Rather very interestingly, UAE wanted to sell of their Mirage 2000 but keep its F-16 ... wonder why UAE wants to keep F-16 and sell off Mirage 2000 ?
The French are saying that UAE wants to buy Rafales to replace Mirage 2000 but the French want the Mirage at prices of scrap.. Apparently the French know better here.

France is a country which will try to sell to any country, but the problem is that lot of countries are not confident of France to deliver on its promise. 2 Mistral ships for Russia, France did behave when the Americans told them to sit and heel... haha Also during the Falkland wars, France did not supply the Exocet missiles to Argentina which were contracted, paid and ready for delivery.. Tells you a lot about now Neutered France is.

Countries who buy from USA are countries with good relationship with USA, The countries which cannot or do not want to buy from USA buy from others, including France, but if America tells France nicely, France will just roll over and comply.

Its not countries preferring American jets , its NATO countries and " Peace Series anti Soviet countries " preferring them, or more simply its US providing its allies with F16.

Whereas France was always more of a neutral power with its resources directed in its ex colonies in Africa .

 

[Zebra]

The link is asking me a login.
Anyway , well that 24 aircrafts bought after 2007 had no TOT involved. It was the first 71 F/A18s which were licensed produced from 90s.

And my source of 24 Super Hornets and 12 separate Growlers is World Airforces 2015
It lists Australia operating 24 Super Hornets + 1 Growler and shows 11 Growlers under order.

Also do point which specific point is wrong.

I think this will help http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/a...-ea-18g-growler-aircraft/article/feed/2095246

Just for example........................

Spoiler

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/article/feed/2026886 -------------------------CANBERRA, Australia (AP) — Officials say Australia has become the first country other than the United States to buy Boeing EA-18G Growler advanced electronic warfare technology.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

[QUOTE="Zebra, post: 1172936, member: ]Just for example........................

Spoiler

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/article/feed/2026886 -------------------------CANBERRA, Australia (AP) — Officials say Australia has become the first country other than the United States to buy Boeing EA-18G Growler advanced electronic warfare technology.

[/QUOTE]

It simply refers to Australia buying them, no TOT.

 

[Zebra]

It simply refers to Australia buying them, no TOT.

Again, you are wrong. Check the article in that link.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

Again, you are wrong. Check the article in that link.

The link you provided leads me to a login page, nothing more.

Further one thing is to be kept in mind that
,Earlier Australia was going to rewire their 12 of the 24 SH for future conversions to Growler , but now they are simply buying 12 new Growlers.

We will be buying 12 LongBows with 22 Apaches , this does not mean we are buying its TOT.

Your quoted text also do not say anything about TOT , it just says that Australia bought Growlers.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

Further talking about some logic , why would Australia buy TOT , if they as not even going to assemble the aircrafts ? Or converting their older ones ?

 

[Zebra]

The link you provided leads me to a login page, nothing more.

Sir, this is the same web site which you yourself quoted in your own post #29.

Only difference is this is different page of that same web.

Further one thing is to be kept in mind that
,Earlier Australia was going to rewire their 12 of the 24 SH for future conversions to Growler , but now they are simply buying 12 new Growlers.

That means after getting 12 new EA-18 G, they sill got option to convert those rewired aircrafts to Growlers when ever they want. (Like---> 12 + 12)

We will be buying 12 LongBows with 22 Apaches , this does not mean we are buying its TOT.

Your quoted text also do not say anything about TOT , it just says that Australia bought Growlers.

Let me post here again for you ---->

Spoiler

"http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/article/feed/2026886"
Australia buys US Growler air warfare technology---------------
CANBERRA, Australia (AP) — Officials say Australia has become the first country other than the United States to buy Boeing EA-18G Growler advanced electronic warfare technology.

Defense Minister Stephen Smith said Thursday the Australian air force will equip 12 of Australia's F/A-18 Super Hornet jet fighters with Growler radar-jamming equipment and other gear to knock out a wide array of electronic devices. The upgrade starting in 2018 will cost $1.5 billion.

The sharing of rare U.S. military technology now in service with the U.S. Navy comes as the United States deepens its defense ties with Australia and juggles its might in the Asia-Pacific region in response to the rise of China.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

Sir, this is the same web site which you yourself quoted in your own post #29.

Only difference is this is different page of that same web.



That means after getting 12 new EA-18 G, they sill got option to convwhen those rewired aircrafts to Growlers when ever they want. (Like---> 12 + 12)



Let me post here again for you ---->

Spoiler

"http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/article/feed/2026886"
Australia buys US Growler air warfare technology---------------
CANBERRA, Australia (AP) — Officials say Australia has become the first country other than the United States to buy Boeing EA-18G Growler advanced electronic warfare technology.

Defense Minister Stephen Smith said Thursday the Australian air force will equip 12 of Australia's F/A-18 Super Hornet jet fighters with Growler radar-jamming equipment and other gear to knock out a wide array of electronic devices. The upgrade starting in 2018 will cost $1.5 billion.

The sharing of rare U.S. military technology now in service with the U.S. Navy comes as the United States deepens its defense ties with Australia and juggles its might in the Asia-Pacific region in response to the rise of China.

The line " Sharing of rare US military tech " is troubling you. It simply means that Australia is buying an American equipment with that technology. They are not buying the technology itself. Fit her the plans for rewiring the 12 Super Hornets were dropped when 12 new Airframes were ordered.

Further if Australia had bought TOT , they would have been atleast assembling them in Australia , but the airframes are 100% built , tested and pilots trained in USA.

The line simply means USA is selling the aircrafts , not providing any TOT.

I would reconsider my point if you provide an any release talking about TOT. TOT , not sharing....
We too are sharing (buying and using ) of P8s technologies , but this does not mean we have got its TOT.

PS:- Never mind about the links and quotes , using mobile for opening the forum , may be its due to the browser converting the page to lite version.

 

[Zebra]

The line " Sharing of rare US military tech " is troubling you. It simply means that Australia is buying an American equipment with that technology. They are not buying the technology itself. Fit her the plans for rewiring the 12 Super Hornets were dropped when 12 new Airframes were ordered.

Further if Australia had bought TOT , they would have been atleast assembling them in Australia , but the airframes are 100% built , tested and pilots trained in USA.

The line simply means USA is selling the aircrafts , not providing any TOT.

I would reconsider my point if you provide an any release talking about TOT. TOT , not sharing....
We too are sharing (buying and using ) of P8s technologies , but this does not mean we have got its TOT.

PS:- Never mind about the links and quotes , using mobile for opening the forum , may be its due to the browser converting the page to lite version.

Sir, If US is not providing TOT than how come Australia buy American technology.......!

Anyway, check the title of this article, it doesn't talk about aircraft sell.

Check the first paragraph, it says.......
Officials say Australia has become the first country other than the United States to buy Boeing EA-18G Growler advanced electronic warfare technology.

And still you stick to your point, then I can't help you.

As may be, you don't like to accept that US also sell technology to someone.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

Sir, If US is not providing TOT than how come Australia buy American technology.......!

Anyway, check the titthe of this article, it doesn't talk about aircraft sell.

Check the first paragraph, it says.......
Officials say Australia has become the first country other than the United States to buy Boeing EA-18G Growler advanced electronic warfare technology.

And still you stick to your point, then I can't help you.

As may be, you don't like to accept that US also sell technology to someone.

Tell me one point , if Australia bought the TOT , then why are the 12 new airframes being built in US ?
Australia after building Hornets for a decade had the capability to do the same.

As far as I understand , buying of TOT is done if one wants to local manufacture the product , use its technology in its own other projects or upgrade the systems itself. And Australia isn't doing any of these.

So even if for a moment I agree to you , then convince me what will Australia do with the TOT.

Further an easy way to convince me is to bring another article referring to notification to US congress about the sale of TOT to Australia.

 

[Zebra]

Tell me one point , if Australia bought the TOT , then why are the 12 new airframes being built in US ?
Australia after building Hornets for a decade had the capability to do the same.

Boeing Australia is not manufacturing anymore F/A-18s in Australia, as simple as that.
And in past also Australia only assembled those aircrafts in govt aircraft factory.

As far as I understand , buying of TOT is done if one wants to local manufacture the product , use its technology in its own other projects or upgrade the systems itself. And Australia isn't doing any of these.

Sir, I agree.
And they tried , but didn't get 100% successful results, if I am not wrong.
Again, I said, if I am not wrong.
May be that is why they end up getting those few equipments from US itself.

So even if for a moment I agree to you , then convince me what will Australia do with the TOT.

Who knows....!

Further an easy way to convince me is to bring another article referring to notification to US congress about the sale of TOT to Australia.

No need for it, as this one is enough for now.

And keep in mind, you posted this web here on DFI as a link in one of your own posts.
I just dig further in it and I posted it here again for you.

See ya.
Have fun.