Is Air force capable of Two Front War?

[Armand2REP]

But is the Indian amry is the only customer for the DRDO. Recent acquisition if Aakash SAM for a Billion dollar and Tejas AC for than 100+ numbers. You need to get more on the Indian Defence

Aakash = JV with Poland of which Poles don't even buy it. LCA = foreign engines, radar, weapons and is already going into Mk2 before Mk1 is even developed.

 

[Necrosis Factor]

Have you guys looked at the positioning of PLAAF bases? They don't consider India a threat and this map reflects it. Air war between the two countries? HIGHLY DOUBTFUL

If the Chinese were serious about India, it wouldn't look like this.

 

[BunBunCake]

Aakash = JV with Poland of which Poles don't even buy it. LCA = foreign engines, radar, weapons and is already going into Mk2 before Mk1 is even developed.

Load of bull.
Akash was JV with Poland???? Give me your sources.--Not blogs that is.

@Your point that "no one builds what DRDO develops" hasn't been proved by you stating that LCA has foreign engines, radar, weapon, etc.

 

[Armand2REP]

Have you guys looked at the positioning of PLAAF bases? They don't consider India a threat and this map reflects it. Air war between the two countries? HIGHLY DOUBTFUL

There are 14 major airbases on the plateau along with an extra 20 airstrips.

http://spsaviation.net/story_issue.asp?Article=379

If the Chinese were serious about India, it wouldn't look like this.

It doesn't look like that. It looks like this.

 

[Armand2REP]

Load of bull.
Akash was JV with Poland???? Give me your sources.--Not blogs that is.

From a 2006 article in FORCE Magasine called Flights of Fire...

By late 2001 the DRDO had inked a comprehensive technology transfer-design rights buyout package with Radwar and PIT under which the DRDO would obtain and transfer the production technology for the PIT-developed TRS-17 S-band, 3-D radar with 240kmrange, and Radwar-developed N-22 Sband, 2-D 100km-range gapfiller radar, their respective antennae hoisting mechanisms, microwave line-of-sight signals relay antennae and related command-and control consoles to the MoD-owned Bharat Electronics Ltd (BEL) who in turn would call them the Central Acquisition Radar (CAR) and the Battery Surveillance Radar (BSR).

While the CAR would be used along with a Group Control Centre for tracking up to 120 targets and providing fire-direction for up to three Batteries (each comprising four launchers, with each launcher carrying three missiles) of the Akash MSAM, the BSR and its Battery Control Centre will be able to track 72 airborne targets and will be linked to the BEL-built Rajendra target engagement radar, whose main antenna array will comprise 2,000 ferrite phase shifters and will be able to track 64 targets out to 60km, and engage four airborne targets simultaneously with 12 missiles. For the Army and Air Force variants of the Trishul SHORADS, the DRDO opted for Radwar's S-band, 40kmrange 3-D mobile multi-beam search radar as the principal tactical early warning sensor.

Armed with these technology-transfer deals, the DRDO had by 2003 reinvigorated the Akash's R&D phase and on 7 December 2005 conducted Akash's 50th test-firing which, according to DRDL Director Dr Prahlada, was the first test-firing conducted with a fully functional Battery-level command, control and communications system.

@Your point that "no one builds what DRDO develops" hasn't been proved by you stating that LCA has foreign engines, radar, weapon, etc.

I haven't seen it clear operational clearance so the comment still stands.

 

[Necrosis Factor]

Armand, the map you posted just proved my point further. All of those minor airbases are east of Nepal and Bhutan with closer proximity to Vietnam and Burma. No way are those directed towards India unless they intended to fly over 2-4 countries.

 

[Armand2REP]

Armand, the map you posted just proved my point further. All of those minor airbases are east of Nepal and Bhutan with closer proximity to Vietnam and Burma. No way are those directed towards India unless they intended to fly over 2-4 countries.

Really? It proves your point that there are an ass-load of bases bordering AP that don't have to fly over any countries but India?

 

[Necrosis Factor]

Really? It proves your point that there are an ass-load of bases bordering AP that don't have to fly over any countries but India?

You're correct about AP, but I was referring to the mainland past the choke-head. Irregardless, the entire Chengdu region is still manned by only 2 fighter divisions. Point: their focus is elsewhere.

 

[Armand2REP]

You're correct about AP, but I was referring to the mainland past the choke-head. Irregardless, the entire Chengdu region is still manned by only 2 fighter divisions. Point: their focus is elsewhere.

The point is the infrastructure is there. It doesn't take but a week before hostilities start to station 10 divisions there.

 

[Necrosis Factor]

The point is the infrastructure is there. It doesn't take but a week before hostilities start to station 10 divisions there.

But why wouldn't they station them there in the first place?

Being prepared for a potential conflict is completely different than taking an Indian air-war threat seriously and placing the equipment there in the beginning.

 

[Armand2REP]

But why wouldn't they station them there in the first place?

Being prepared for a potential conflict is completely different than taking an Indian air-war threat seriously and placing the equipment there in the beginning.

Because their area of focus is Taiwan. If the situation heats up with India, that will be their new focus and a rapid build up will begin. That is why China has built all that infrastructure. India shouldn't get complacent because Taiwan is more important at the moment. China is biding their time and when the moment is right, they will strike.

 

[ppgj]

Indian Army is living proof.

IA not building on DRDO product inspite of it being superior does not reflect badly on DRDO. rather it reflects on IA not supporting home grown ones unlike the french or israeli armed forces.

So are the export sales, next to nothing.

this has nothing to do with DRDO capability. india's armed forces provide a big market. producing for them is the top priority for DRDO. moreover even armed forces do not want sensitive technologies developed for them to be parted to others. it applies to all the countries. unless they go to next gen they will not part.

that apart GOI has its own policy. they don't sell to some countries who show interest due to political sensitivities. case in point dhruvs were refused to Bolivia -

http://www.business-standard.com/in...n-defence-ministrys-helicopter-export/358949/

Aakash = JV with Poland of which Poles don't even buy it.

wrong. see below.

LCA = foreign engines, radar, weapons and is already going into Mk2 before Mk1 is even developed.

so what is your point?? how do you explain other similar projects worldwide??

From a 2006 article in FORCE Magasine called Flights of Fire...

By late 2001 the DRDO had inked a comprehensive technology transfer-design rights buyout package with Radwar and PIT under which the DRDO would obtain and transfer the production technology for the PIT-developed TRS-17 S-band, 3-D radar with 240kmrange, and Radwar-developed N-22 Sband, 2-D 100km-range gapfiller radar, their respective antennae hoisting mechanisms, microwave line-of-sight signals relay antennae and related command-and control consoles to the MoD-owned Bharat Electronics Ltd (BEL) who in turn would call them the Central Acquisition Radar (CAR) and the Battery Surveillance Radar (BSR).

While the CAR would be used along with a Group Control Centre for tracking up to 120 targets and providing fire-direction for up to three Batteries (each comprising four launchers, with each launcher carrying three missiles) of the Akash MSAM, the BSR and its Battery Control Centre will be able to track 72 airborne targets and will be linked to the BEL-built Rajendra target engagement radar, whose main antenna array will comprise 2,000 ferrite phase shifters and will be able to track 64 targets out to 60km, and engage four airborne targets simultaneously with 12 missiles. For the Army and Air Force variants of the Trishul SHORADS, the DRDO opted for Radwar's S-band, 40kmrange 3-D mobile multi-beam search radar as the principal tactical early warning sensor.

Armed with these technology-transfer deals, the DRDO had by 2003 reinvigorated the Akash's R&D phase and on 7 December 2005 conducted Akash's 50th test-firing which, according to DRDL Director Dr Prahlada, was the first test-firing conducted with a fully functional Battery-level command, control and communications system.

I haven't seen it clear operational clearance so the comment still stands.

i guess without bashing DRDO you do not feel comfort. in support of your view you do not mind to cohabit prasun s gupta's article.

Prasun Sengupta is considered a known plagiarist, copy paste guy. some call him a fraud. you can check him out at his blog http://trishulgroup.blogspot.com/ and judge him yourself.

he writes lot of non sense. even Force magazine is not considered a credible source in defence forums in india for they write lot of trash.

coming to his article you posted - there was a discussion on this very article here -

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2008/08/truth-about-rohini-radar-from-prasun-k.html

please go to comments section and see how it was thrashed by a guy called Ravi (IMO probably insider from DRDO), who i quote below -

Ravi said...

Hi Shiv,

Prasun has been barking up the wrong tree for a long while and his claims are an absolute farce.

PIT didnt provide any technology "buy out" for LRDE to avail of.

The LRDE actually ran a phased array project called Project Vajra, ask any of us at LRDE for details, and that led to the CAR project.

DRDO was aware of PITs radar work and asked if they were interested in taking project Vajra further. The aim was to now take the phased array project and make a Planar array radar with a brand new array that would be lighter. PIT showed their own work in this regard and agreed, they had been tapped by the Polish Govt to develop a new series of radars as well.

The joint effort of both organizations was the the 3D CAR for DRDO, and the TRS-19 for Poland.

Both radars are different, and use different signal processing units.

The item common to both radars is the basic design of the planar array antenna, which scans (electronically) in elevation, and rotates for azimuth coverage.

PIT has not developed the TRS-19 further, but have concentrated on other derivatives for long range theater coverage.

PIT also ran a tender for its own separate maritime surveillance project, and purchased LRDE's antennas (slotted array) for the same.

In India, DRDO developed the 3D CAR into the Rohini. For this radar, Astra Microwave and DRDO developed new microwave components and L&T was roped in for a new rotational assembly, for the radar to make it sufficiently compact for IAF usage. The signal processing and radar data processing was designed and developed by a team led by the Late Dr Radhakrishnan of LRDE, and Dr Cleetus (ex head, LRDE). The Rohini and Revathi are completely DRDO's babies, they in fact, dont even use the original planar array developed with PIT, but a brand new one able to handle increased power, as well as an all new digital beamformer.

The Revathi in fact, is even more sophisticated. It uses a completely de novo bi axis stabilisation system again developed by the DRDO in specific for the Navy. This is because the Revathi is intended for the Navy, and needs to be stabilised.

Reading some of the responses above, and your uncritical acceptance of the bilge that Prasun writes, is saddening.

For one, give credit where credit is due.

The Rohini is an all Indian radar developed by the DRDO, with extensive time consuming involvement by the Indian Air Force, the user. It is no off the shelf import, knocked together as license assembly under fancy terms of import of technology or technology buyout.

For more details about the DRDO's radar technology, please do look at the DRDO techfocus about the same.

Prasun is habitually unreliable when it comes to talking about the DRDO or for that matter about most matters relating to Indian defence.

Case in point, please ask him for any corroborative proof about the absolute nonsense he wrote about India corroborating with Taiwan for ramjet based missiles, and for all the hoopla about India making all sorts of fancy weapons. In his latest article, he went so far as to call the BEL WLR an active phased array radar. The man does not even know the difference between a PESA and an AESA, the former of which the Rajendra based WLR is!

Each of his articles is actually different in "Facts" from the other, merely inventing stuff on the fly to impress a not too critical audience.

Most defence professionals have long got used to these incredibly jingoistic and nonsensical claims from Tempur. Unfortunately, Force continues to carry them without due investigation.

- Ravi
5:48 AM

also -

The 3-D CAR was originally developed as part of a program between Indian DRDO and Poland's PIT as a family of mobile S-Band 3D radars. The areas of cooperation were developing the Planar Array and general architecture. The Indian variant is the 3-D CAR, a medium range surveillance radar for Akash at Group level, intended to provide high mobility and comprehensive high and low level coverage.

ndia has further developed its 3-D CAR into an all-new locally produced Revathi variant for the Navy. The Rohini is the Indian Air Force specific variant whereas the Revathi is for the Indian Navy. These replace the original joint development items, such as the planar array antenna, with new locally developed ones which are more capable than the original design.

The Polish versions are the TRS series of S Band mobile radars such as the TRS-17 and TRS-19. The original Indian (3-D CAR) and Polish (TRS 17) radars shared the basic architecture and antenna but differed in terms of purpose designed transmitter/receivers and signal processing equipment. The TRS series, for instance, can track 120 targets, while the Indian radar tracks 150. SPINNER also supplies a similar design of 16-Ch rotary joint to PIT to support the Radar with a reliable rotary joint design that can handle the high power requirement of both the Indian and Polish designs.

http://www.naval-technology.com/contractors/rotary/spinner/press2.html

 

[neo29]

Irrespective how how many air bases china has , all we need is a huge squadrons of akash sam's installed on the whole india china border. That will easily nullify the threat from PLAAF and balance our lack of fighters.
the next indo china war will be based on guerrilla warfare and air combat. neither can they nor can we just roll tanks on such a treacherous terrain. As far as i know we are very good at guerrilla warfare. 1962 we did lose because of with very less soldiers, no logistical support and bad weapons. we were using enfield ww2 rifles and chinese were using machine guns. The scenario today aint like that.
We also need huge chunk of LGB for IAF to support ground troops and a good rail and road system to the borders.

 

[Armand2REP]

IA not building on DRDO product inspite of it being superior does not reflect badly on DRDO. rather it reflects on IA not supporting home grown ones unlike the french or israeli armed forces.

That doesn't make any sense unless IA generals are bribed by Russian keepers.

this has nothing to do with DRDO capability. india's armed forces provide a big market. producing for them is the top priority for DRDO. moreover even armed forces do not want sensitive technologies developed for them to be parted to others. it applies to all the countries. unless they go to next gen they will not part.

Again that makes no sense. GoI has said time and time again how disappointed they are with the lack of exports. They are the measure to how competitive your industry is and at $81 million a year, DRDO's multi-billion dollar budget looks like a waste. Even GoI is of this view when they suggest 100% FDI and are more proud of the offset deals than their own production.

wrong. see below.

Wrong, see below...

According to Jane's sources, the 3-DCAR radar is a variant of the tri-service CAR-1100 radar that Polish contractor Przemyslowy Instytut Telekomunikacji (PIT) developed for India during the late 1990s and is associated with India's Akash SAM system.

http://www.janes.com/articles/Janes...l-Acquisition-Radar-3-DCAR-International.html

so what is your point?? how do you explain other similar projects worldwide??

Similar projects worldwide are not 30 years in the offing. Indian requirements stated back in the 80s that they wanted their own MMR and after-burning turbofans... well it is coming 30 years later and it is still nothing. DRDO was supposed to deliever self sufficiency and they failed. India is not some little country like Sweden that needs a JV because of small budgets, it is INDIA!

i guess without bashing DRDO you do not feel comfort. in support of your view you do not mind to cohabit prasun s gupta's article.

I share the company of Jane's Defence, IA, and GoI. I cohabit the statistics that India exports next to nothing and is dependent on foreign supply for 70% of its wares, of which is only growing. I have to sit by and watch JVs for the simplest of things like an assault rifle and tactical vehicles and be happy about it? I have to sit and watch missiles and UAVs dropping like flies? I have to watch Indian MIC give up its soveriegnty to a bunch of foreign countries because the government is more excited about offsets than what DRDO investment has failed to produce? No sir, I take no pride in my position but it is the sad case of reality, DRDO has failed to conclude its main purpose which is to set Indian MIC on the road to independence.

 

[rt122]

It seems not to gonna happen such things,huuum

 

[Yusuf]

A two front war as with the Army, even with the air force is going to be a defensive one. The IA is preparing for a joint sino pak attack which a few years back very nearly became a reality IIRC. From a defensive point of view, yes the IAF will be able to hold its own against both the enemies. simply because we have decent enough SAMs on the western border along with good numbers (though falling) of fighters. We are stationing more MKIs on the Chinese front which will give us a good enough defense against what is still an unknown entity in aerial warfare. With Indian training, India will be able to counter the chinese.

Also we have to see the overall picture in the war. Indian Navy will put a lot of pressure on Pakistan in any such war which will really strain its war effort inspite of chinese help. Like someone said before, the Chinese are not fools in engaging a professional army and air force and risk a large amount of its fighters to India as it has larger goals in mind. Pakistanis do not think that way and may be more than ready to fight a loosing war against India. China will help it for sure, right down to the last Pakistani.

 

[p2prada]

Again that makes no sense. GoI has said time and time again how disappointed they are with the lack of exports. They are the measure to how competitive your industry is and at $81 million a year, DRDO's multi-billion dollar budget looks like a waste. Even GoI is of this view when they suggest 100% FDI and are more proud of the offset deals than their own production.

The annual DRDO budget is less than $2Billion every year. It is a far cry from SAAB, Dassault let alone Raytheon or Boeing. Also DRDO budget is used for all our wings, airforce, army and navy and not just one wing.

Similar projects worldwide are not 30 years in the offing. Indian requirements stated back in the 80s that they wanted their own MMR and after-burning turbofans... well it is coming 30 years later and it is still nothing. DRDO was supposed to deliever self sufficiency and they failed.

The projects were over ambitious for the time line, that's all. There was never enough time nor the required funding.

India is not some little country like Sweden that needs a JV because of small budgets, it is INDIA!

The little country has a bigger budget for research than India has. Cut down Dassault's research budget to a measly $2Billion and watch the entire company fall down.

DRDO has failed to conclude its main purpose which is to set Indian MIC on the road to independence.

They have been an overambitious bunch with literally no money to complete projects. It was only after the Nuclear tests that we started earning a little to make an impact. It was after 1998 that most of our projects became feasible too. Every one of our projects started their induction only post 2000. That included Arjun, LCA, Agni missiles, AKASH SAM, AAD and PAD etc.

We have never had the kind of funding that Europe and US enjoyed. The program costs for the Grpen was $20Billion, Rafale was $30Billion. The program costs of the EFT was $40Billion, the Raptor was $65Billion. LCA costed less than $3Billion and we also had to build the entire infrastructure from the ground up. You have no idea about India's history and have only been spouting nonsense.

JVs are the best way forward for us and it has nothing to do with pride. You can be as nonsensical as the media is, but let the real scientists work with what they have.

You guys in France did the same too. Even after US, Russia and Britain had the lead, you guys still came up with something that could compete in the market. Even though you have a huge budget you still haven't been able to build a F-22 like aircraft. So, does that mean Dassault is a failure? Rafale is your only aircraft that can actually compare to the Flankers and the Eagle. The Americans have developed the Raptor, the Russians the PAKFA. France does not have an equivalent answer, so does that mean Dassault failed?

Give up on your rant, it will not take you anywhere.

 

[ppgj]

That doesn't make any sense unless IA generals are bribed by Russian keepers.

i don't know about the bribe. but what i can say is russian lobby within IA and GOI is very strong.

Again that makes no sense. GoI has said time and time again how disappointed they are with the lack of exports. They are the measure to how competitive your industry is and at $81 million a year, DRDO's multi-billion dollar budget looks like a waste.

multi billion dollar budgets???? any source???

with paltry sums as annual budgets which as a whole does not even stand upto an american budget for a single project, what one expects???

still to their credit DRDO has not only done well but even exported radars, communication equipment to some countries like indonesia, srilanka etc..

other than drdo, INSAS rifle is operated by nepal. Oman is mulling buying it.

HAL's dhruv is operational in 4/5 countries.

let's see what the chief controller of drdo had to say about the drdo budget -

adding that the annual budget allocation for the department, which was Rs. 6,000 crore this year, was likely to be increased by 10 per cent in 2010-11.

http://www.thehindu.com/2009/06/07/stories/2009060752221000.htm

this is from MOD site, drdo budget (in crore rupees) -

DR&D

5283.36 - 2005-06

5361.22 - 2006-07

5896.81 - 2007-08

6486.35 - 2008-2009

http://mod.nic.in/aboutus/welcome.html

Even GoI is of this view when they suggest 100% FDI and are more proud of the offset deals than their own production.

they expect exports but refuse to fund research. how can that go hand in hand?? besides no armed forces will like to part with technology developed for them to be parted unless it is a generation old.

Wrong, see below...

you are entitled to beleive whatever you want to. janes is not the ultimate authority. i have given mine.

Similar projects worldwide are not 30 years in the offing. Indian requirements stated back in the 80s that they wanted their own MMR and after-burning turbofans... well it is coming 30 years later and it is still nothing. DRDO was supposed to deliever self sufficiency and they failed. India is not some little country like Sweden that needs a JV because of small budgets, it is INDIA!

i did answer you on the Tejas thread. LCA practically started in 1993 which makes it 17 years in all. MMR is already there on LSP 3. only the processor in MMR is israeli one for the present.

engine is a task and i agree. but you are well aware of the complexity in its design. atleast they have succeeded in bringing kaveri though it is underpowered at present. it will need more time and money.

with so much funding China would have had it longtime back. but it is not able to. isn't it?? it is tough for even established engine makers to come up with a new one.

I share the company of Jane's Defence, IA, and GoI. I cohabit the statistics that India exports next to nothing and is dependent on foreign supply for 70% of its wares, of which is only growing. I have to sit by and watch JVs for the simplest of things like an assault rifle and tactical vehicles and be happy about it?

agree but what is DRDO's fault. if any GOI (funding miniscules) and Armed forces (love for foreign machines) are responsible.

with budgets running into 6000 odd crore indian rupees, DRDO becomes the villain!! so fair!!

I have to sit and watch missiles and UAVs dropping like flies?

are you suggesting that french/americans/british/germans/russians never had any failures??? must be geniuses!!! a salute is in order.

I have to watch Indian MIC give up its soveriegnty to a bunch of foreign countries because the government is more excited about offsets than what DRDO investment has failed to produce?

agree there are problems but it is also a question which has no simple answer. i have answered in the past the part pertaining to DRDO. don't want to repeat the same.

No sir, I take no pride in my position but it is the sad case of reality, DRDO has failed to conclude its main purpose which is to set Indian MIC on the road to independence.

drdo 'to set indian MIC' with own budgets like 6000 - 7000 crore a year!!! is it supposed to be a joke?? sorry sir i could not get it.

what they are looking for is independance in as many technologies as possible and this also is only possible when GOI and the armed forces cooperate and collaborate.

case in point - how do you explain Arjun which is any day superior gets 248 unit order and T-90 which has many design flaws and is grossly underpowered gets 1600 unit order??

 

[Zoravar]

PAF on other hand with around 400 combat aircraft is still a formidable air force in the region.

Dude they have like what ,uoto 64 4th gen aircraft.The bulk of their force is made up of non-upgraded chinese junk and dassault mirage-3,5.Even Mig-21 Bisons will lay their airforce to the ground.

 

[Zoravar]

T-90 which has many design flaws and is grossly underpowered gets 1600 unit order??

Only T-90S is underpowered,the second batch of russian tanks and all Indian tanks are T-90M.