Involve Singapore and Israel in our AMCA 5th generation fighter program

Rebelkid

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What rights to you blame Israel to be supportive of China against India? You tell me, how many Israel Arab wars have we supported and fought on side of Israel in response to Pakistanis fighting on the side of Arabs? How many of their terrorists attacks has our socialist government condemned for the fear of certain groups within the country for not doing this friendly gesture? And on top of all this, how can you say that Israel has no right to even sell weapons for business to China?

When we Indians maintain a policy of offical neutrality between Israelis and Arabs, don't they have right to maintain a similar kind of neutrality when it comes to us and Chinese? After all Israel is all for us when it comes to Pakistan. This is some logic you got. Chit bhi meri, patt bhi meri. :15::15:
Our diplomacy with Israel is rather complicated.. Isreal and India are big allies ,while Israel and china are not, their relations with china isn't all that good as well(not saying its bad) while India has good realtions with the Arab world..Israel selling weapons to china would be equal to India selling weapons to Iran,Lebanon or Egypt. IF you think India did sucha deal , Israelis would be screaming on the top of their voices, knowing Isreal that would prolly end the defence deals .
 

Param

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What rights to you blame Israel to be supportive of China against India? You tell me, how many Israel Arab wars have we supported and fought on side of Israel in response to Pakistanis fighting on the side of Arabs? How many of their terrorists attacks has our socialist government condemned for the fear of certain groups within the country for not doing this friendly gesture? And on top of all this, how can you say that Israel has no right to even sell weapons for business to China?

When we Indians maintain a policy of offical neutrality between Israelis and Arabs, don't they have right to maintain a similar kind of neutrality when it comes to us and Chinese? After all Israel is all for us when it comes to Pakistan. This is some logic you got. Chit bhi meri, patt bhi meri. :15::15:
I never said whatever was mentioned by you.I just mentioned some facts that are well known. Yes ofcourse, Israel has the right to sell weapons to any country of their choice but if they start dealing with our enemies then we cannot trust them with a JV for AMCA. They have done that in the past and no one knows the future.
BTW i like Israel as much as I like Russia but I am not going to get emotional about this weapons buyer seller relationship.
 

Tshering22

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I never said whatever was mentioned by you.I just mentioned some facts that are well known. Yes ofcourse, Israel has the right to sell weapons to any country of their choice but if they start dealing with our enemies then we cannot trust them with a JV for AMCA. They have done that in the past and no one knows the future.
BTW i like Israel as much as I like Russia but I am not going to get emotional about this weapons buyer seller relationship.
When it comes to defense I am the last person to take things emotionally. I am merely stating that Israel has given enough proof to us that we can trust them. If the said the same when we had an even dealing with Arabs, a lot of hi tech gadgets won't have been in our hands now. The day we stop supporting Arab political stand on Israeli territory-Palestine, that day Israel might consider it even to do the same with China. But since either of that isn't going to happen, so let's leave it aside.

I think we should take this first step. Come on man. We're already developing Barak-8 in a 50-50 partnership with them. The whole point of AMCA was not to involve Russians a second time. We need Israel not just for their technical know-how but also as an excuse to make things fast. If we're going alone at AMCA, ADA-HAL will get it out in 2050 when unmanned AA fighters will be ruling the skies.
 

thakur_ritesh

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today everyone deals with everyone, so israel's past should not be that much of a concern.

US/EU - feed both india's, and pakistan's defence needs. france is keen on defence specific sanctions on china to be lifted.
russia - feeds both india's and china's defence needs.

beyond this, will israel and singapore jump in, well i seriously have my doubts on that. cant see it happening. both the countries gain nothing much politically from us, we have still not decided to flex our muscles diplomatically, on the contrary if both are shooed away by the americans, they very well will. let us not forget, israel's defence needs are quite literally fed by the americans through aid, who also happen to be the force behind masterminding the whole mid east crisis for the israelis and keeping a tight grip on it to their satisfaction, on top of all this both these countries are allies of the US which india is not to the US and if any such thing has to take off, US will play a significant role and atleast the way the things are today i cant see it happening and if tomorrow india was to be in the loop of the americans, they would want india to buy f35s than see a competition in certain terms appear to potential futures customers of f35 where those countries might want to look for cheaper (price wise) alternatives.

in any such move, the US is your biggest stumbling block.

we better do alone and do sub-contracts and joint ventures for sub systems where ever need be.
 

Param

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When it comes to defense I am the last person to take things emotionally. I am merely stating that Israel has given enough proof to us that we can trust them. If the said the same when we had an even dealing with Arabs, a lot of hi tech gadgets won't have been in our hands now. The day we stop supporting Arab political stand on Israeli territory-Palestine, that day Israel might consider it even to do the same with China. But since either of that isn't going to happen, so let's leave it aside.

I think we should take this first step. Come on man. We're already developing Barak-8 in a 50-50 partnership with them. The whole point of AMCA was not to involve Russians a second time. We need Israel not just for their technical know-how but also as an excuse to make things fast. If we're going alone at AMCA, ADA-HAL will get it out in 2050 when unmanned AA fighters will be ruling the skies.
If i am correct France was the counsultant for Lca. BTW, what can Israel contribute? Do they have engines? Do they have experience in stealth? Its better for India to go it alone with participation from private companies.
 

SHASH2K2

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If i am correct France was the counsultant for Lca. BTW, what can Israel contribute? Do they have engines? Do they have experience in stealth? Its better for India to go it alone with participation from private companies.
You forgot that Planes have Avoinics and RADARS as well. Who helped us in this field? In case of non AESA radars Elta is best.
 
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The trust issue is not a factor in involving Israelis since Israel is involved in Nirbay,BMD and scramjet projects and many more projects. The real issue is can Israel be a partner independent of US pressure??
 

nrj

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Okay. So when can India make its own completely indigenous fighter aircraft?

If India wants to demonstrate its technological insurgence to the world, make its airforce operate very advanced, classified, home-grown fighter (what they can rate up above 5th Gen) then AMCA should remain entirely indigenous. Be it simple nut to or critical next-gen Electronic attack module on AMCA, it should be developed & made in India. There is nothing absent in this country if pursued honestly with consistency.

We already have enough JV projects. Even LCA's many critical parts will see active co-operation from foreigners. There has to be some technological edge turned into a lethal product to give country a upper hand in defense. And AMCA should be that India's very own classified fighter.

Other programs with Global-supply chain & shared technology should be separate & this AMCA project must be handled close to chest likewise ATV (although ATV saw some help from just Russians) Today world fears of Raptor/B2 because of the classified unknown advanced tech crammed into it, which is never shared with anyone by US. If India can not or choose not to make project like AMCA entirely indigenous, throw away the dream of self-reliance.
 
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Tshering22

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Okay. So when can India make its own completely indigenous fighter aircraft?

If India wants to demonstrate its technological insurgence to the world, make its airforce operate very advanced, classified, home-grown fighter (what they can rate up above 5th Gen) then AMCA should remain entirely indigenous. Be it simple nut to or critical next-gen Electronic attack module on AMCA, it should be developed & made in India. There is nothing absent in this country if pursued honestly with consistency.

We already have enough JV projects. Even LCA's many critical parts will see active co-operation from foreigners. There has to be some technological edge turned into a lethal product to give country a upper hand in defense. And AMCA should be that India's very own classified fighter.

Other programs with Global-supply chain & shared technology should be separate & this AMCA project must be handled close to chest likewise ATV (although ATV saw some help from just Russians) Today world fears of Raptor/B2 because of the classified unknown advanced tech crammed into it, which is never shared with anyone by US. If India can not or choose not to make project like AMCA entirely indigenous, throw away the dream of self-reliance.
Dude, when I said that getting these two countries involved, it doesn't mean we're buying stuff from them. It means with the basic commonalities we get a different version tailor-made for our use with some avionics and radar expertise of Israel and also in some form small amount of funding or other tertiary help from Singapore, both of whom shall play the same role they are playing in JSF program. Both Israel can have variants that would suit their needs except sharing some basic commonalities with our own version. For example, Israel is not pleased with LM's decision of not allowing them to modify the F-35 with their own stuff- a common practise of Israelis till date as it had done on all its American-made fighters. Also, JSF while with its all cutting edge technology, has certain limitations that compel Israelis to consider another twin-engined fighter: range and payload. What are they going to replace their F-15s with? Raptor is unafforable by them and not for sale at all by US; there's absolutely no word on F-15 Silent Eagle, the only twin-engined, close-to-stealth fighter existing right now other than F-22, by Israelis. PAKFA is in very advanced stage and Russians are not as close to them yet as they are to USA, in order to get them into our venture. China's program is a total unknown to the world. Even their conventional J-10 was not known for 7 years of its operational duty. It is very unlikely that they would involve Israelis in their project.

I fully support you that we need to have our own 100% stealth fighter but when we are getting certain benefits, why not take them? I mean, even F-35 isn't 100% domestic. Even if 95% of AMCA is completely indigenous, the 5% additional benefits from Israel in terms of their radar and avionics expertise and perhaps financial cooperation with Singapore would be wonderful idea. Singapore is India's 5th largest economic trading partner. It has loads of defense agreements with us and is a strong potential partner since it has a strong industrial base.

This is how strategic partners are given rise to. Now apart from a hindrance to our growth, what other positive did China see in Pakistan to become such strong cooperative partners? That one reason made them such strong allies: common enemies. So we can surely use this as a perfect excuse to earn ourselves some strong, reliable friends turned-strategic partners.
 

Rebelkid

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Okay. So when can India make its own completely indigenous fighter aircraft?

If India wants to demonstrate its technological insurgence to the world, make its airforce operate very advanced, classified, home-grown fighter (what they can rate up above 5th Gen) then AMCA should remain entirely indigenous. Be it simple nut to or critical next-gen Electronic attack module on AMCA, it should be developed & made in India. There is nothing absent in this country if pursued honestly with consistency.

We already have enough JV projects. Even LCA's many critical parts will see active co-operation from foreigners. There has to be some technological edge turned into a lethal product to give country a upper hand in defense. And AMCA should be that India's very own classified fighter.

Other programs with Global-supply chain & shared technology should be separate & this AMCA project must be handled close to chest likewise ATV (although ATV saw some help from just Russians) Today world fears of Raptor/B2 because of the classified unknown advanced tech crammed into it, which is never shared with anyone by US. If India can not or choose not to make project like AMCA entirely indigenous, throw away the dream of self-reliance.
This will at least take more than a decade, making anything indigenously from a scratch takes a lot of time , add to that the corruption and incompetence of DRDO, The only wing of defense who is Indigenouzing rather properly is the Indian Navy. LCA and Arjun is the starting point and is a platform where Indian Engineers can actually learn the ropes of developing better Technologies and defense products. This is only the start, it willl take the DRDO and HAL maybe even 2-3 decades to come with fully indiginious products which are on par with European technologies
 

nrj

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Dude, when I said that getting these two countries involved, it doesn't mean we're buying stuff from them. It means with the basic commonalities we get a different version tailor-made for our use with some avionics and radar expertise of Israel and also in some form small amount of funding or other tertiary help from Singapore, both of whom shall play the same role they are playing in JSF program. Both Israel can have variants that would suit their needs except sharing some basic commonalities with our own version.
I got your point & I partially support it. But I differ on view of making it global product. JSF is sold to dozen countries. AMCA shouldn't be viewed as export material. I would also like to differ on making tailor-made AMCAs for different partners. On the lines of F22, AMCA should be 'IAF/IN-only' fighter. We have got good expertise on avionics & radar while working officially with Israel. GOI isn't short of funding for AMCA, as long as it does not go into anyone's off-shore account. We don't need Singapore or Israel for Govt-Govt help or any JV or funding.

Now is the time to source the missing blocks. India can source the Israeli/French/German/Japanese engineering talent to work on advanced radars, avionics, EW components, keeping AMCA a closed-house project. This has been the only technique of American technological edge (e.g. NASA to Adobe) Getting together the engineering talent from abroad & home can give DRDO leaps of achievement.
(Note: Ofcourse for this to happen DRDO & Govt DPSUs need to be very professional while keeping the HR happy with money & other obsessions)

For example, Israel is not pleased with LM's decision of not allowing them to modify the F-35 with their own stuff- a common practise of Israelis till date as it had done on all its American-made fighters. Also, JSF while with its all cutting edge technology, has certain limitations that compel Israelis to consider another twin-engined fighter: range and payload. What are they going to replace their F-15s with? Raptor is unafforable by them and not for sale at all by US; there's absolutely no word on F-15 Silent Eagle, the only twin-engined, close-to-stealth fighter existing right now other than F-22, by Israelis. PAKFA is in very advanced stage and Russians are not as close to them yet as they are to USA, in order to get them into our venture. China's program is a total unknown to the world. Even their conventional J-10 was not known for 7 years of its operational duty. It is very unlikely that they would involve Israelis in their project.
Let Israelis worry for what they are going to fly or what they are going to replace with. Israel has got American Godfather. They can practically outsource their entire national security. China has ambitions to eat globe on geographical & economic grounds. They have maintained their own way, which might or might not succeed. Only a very classified product like ATV/AMCA can make them think twice while aggravating against India.

I fully support you that we need to have our own 100% stealth fighter but when we are getting certain benefits, why not take them? I mean, even F-35 isn't 100% domestic. Even if 95% of AMCA is completely indigenous, the 5% additional benefits from Israel in terms of their radar and avionics expertise and perhaps financial cooperation with Singapore would be wonderful idea. Singapore is India's 5th largest economic trading partner. It has loads of defense agreements with us and is a strong potential partner since it has a strong industrial base.
India should be working closely with every fine country for economic, technological, engineering gains while keeping advanced projects like AMCA disjointed from them.

This is how strategic partners are given rise to. Now apart from a hindrance to our growth, what other positive did China see in Pakistan to become such strong cooperative partners? That one reason made them such strong allies: common enemies. So we can surely use this as a perfect excuse to earn ourselves some strong, reliable friends turned-strategic partners.
Agreed. May the South Block keep this in mind while shaping the obvious.
 
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nrj

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This will at least take more than a decade, making anything indigenously from a scratch takes a lot of time , add to that the corruption and incompetence of DRDO, The only wing of defense who is Indigenouzing rather properly is the Indian Navy. LCA and Arjun is the starting point and is a platform where Indian Engineers can actually learn the ropes of developing better Technologies and defense products. This is only the start, it willl take the DRDO and HAL maybe even 2-3 decades to come with fully indiginious products which are on par with European technologies
Maybe DRDO, HAL should look up to ISRO & take some inspiration. Maybe MOD/CCS should be synergistic & proactive. Maybe GOI should find solid internal support on critical issue like this. Maybe successive administrations should live up to responsibilities while avoiding the predictable delays.

If not, then IAF/IN will have to keep going through Quotations from far North & counter-presentations of NYSE Defense bullies while forgetting the 'Indigenous Product'.
 
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Godless-Kafir

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I think the better alternative is to involve them financially like the JSF or Pak-Fa. Unless you make them spend money they wont involve whole hardheartedly. I think our best bet would be with Australia, Israel, South Africa, Singapore, Japan,South Korea,Taiwan and Thailand. I am not saying all of them but at least some of them and a Joint Fighter would be better considering its such a huge project both financially and technologically for India to source parts and intellectual know hows.

I would just wish HAL makes more realistic projects and builds a 4.5gen aircraft like the Eurofighter or Rafeal. A better design than the Tejas can be definitely done much faster than an 5th gen aircraft.
 

neo29

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We already are in JV with Russia. Its likely that a partnership will begin with any of the winners of MMRCA. More so EF, Rafale and SH-18. There is no harm in having another JV with Israel. The advantage of JV is that we can make the product much better with 2 different minds dealing with it. AMCA already is speculated to be in similar lines to Pak Fa and FGFA, which we are already going to buy. So why cant we think something out of line since we will be buying these 5th gen fighters anyway. Buying a product and planning to research and building something similar is not digestable.

We must make AMCA no where close to Pak FA or FGFA. It must be entirely different. For us to make it entirely different will take decades. JV with Israel and we will make it faster and better. The best 5th gen fighter will surely need the best avionics and technology, something Israel already has.
 

civfanatic

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Why would Israel enter into a JV with India when they already getting F-35? And by the time AMCA is complete there will probably be a better American toy on the market. We can approach Israel for avionics like we did with the Su-30MKI but I doubt Israel itself will induct any aircraft. DRDO must do its best to make AMCA as indigenous as possible, or else we will always be forced to buy expensive toys from other countries.

As for Singapore, what can they offer in terms of avionics and expertise?
 

Agantrope

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Why would Israel enter into a JV with India when they already getting F-35? And by the time AMCA is complete there will probably be a better American toy on the market. We can approach Israel for avionics like we did with the Su-30MKI but I doubt Israel itself will induct any aircraft. DRDO must do its best to make AMCA as indigenous as possible, or else we will always be forced to buy expensive toys from other countries.

As for Singapore, what can they offer in terms of avionics and expertise?
What if the $35M flight costs escalated to the $190M? They wont regret to get a $100M
 

nrj

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Why would Israel enter into a JV with India when they already getting F-35? And by the time AMCA is complete there will probably be a better American toy on the market. We can approach Israel for avionics like we did with the Su-30MKI but I doubt Israel itself will induct any aircraft. DRDO must do its best to make AMCA as indigenous as possible, or else we will always be forced to buy expensive toys from other countries.
Very true.

As for Singapore, what can they offer in terms of avionics and expertise?
I don't think any substantial, HAL/DRDO shouldn't look for help from Singapore; its time to work out on our own.
 

sandeepdg

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That's a weird thing you said man. Israel helped us always and how can you say it cannot be trusted? Trust always has to start from somewhere. If we keep this Soviet-era Socialist mentality nothing will change and we will never benefit. When signing deals like the one I mentioned with Israel, there are a lot of pacts that bind the other country from selling stuff to other countries. That is the same set of agreements that we have with Russians on PAKFA and BrahMos. It isn't so easy to sell secrets to others.

Why would Israel sell our secrets to who? China is already making its own 5th generation fighter and has what it needs. Russia is also making and so are we. Japanese are already going to get help from US on ShinShin and that leaves only Pakistan. Israel and Pakistan are loggerheads with each other and its an open secret.

Both are US allies I agree. But both are strong India supporters as well. Singapore has extensive security agreements with us and a significant part of their weapons are stationed in India. That's not a joke on international level. Israel has supplied us reliable weapons at reasonable prices when we needed them most starting Kargil war's excellent on time delibery of shells. Israel was also the only Country in middle east and the only country apart from Russia and France who welcomed our nuclear tests with an open heart. The Arabs cheated us there again and sided with Pakistan.

Israel has recently reduced the number of F-35 it is going to by from US from 75 to 25. Singapore will need to replace its other fighters apart from F-16s (it already has new F-15SGs). Israel is also in a security environment that needs them to have things according to their customized requirements.. US is not allowing that on F-35 and hence the decrease in units. With our AMCA project, they have a 50% say in both technology contribution as well as how they want to modify it. Even we can gain from their expertise and mixing it with our own knowledge, AMCA would pack quite a punch.

F-35 is a supposed replacement for old F-16s and 25 won't be enough. They have aroun 110 F-16 fighters. Even if they order another 60 F-35s in next 10 years, what about their F-15 'Neshers'? They need a medium twin-engined 5th generation fighter that has a longer range than JSF. AMCA fits the bill.
Well, mate, I agree that Israel has helped us more than once but they have done that since there was no objection from the US, always keep that in mind !! More than being strong India supporters, they are more importantly principal allies of USA, and that relationship is more important to them than being strong India supporters, since they are more dependent on the US than us and will be for the foreseeable future !!!! Get your facts on strategic partnerships and foreign policy right, mate.

Secondly, China is making is own 5th genr. fighter, but then as everybody knows they are always in the lookout for advanced technology that they can get their hands on from the international market, their adversaries and even their partners !! But that can be countered by having a binding deal with the Israelis in which we clearly spell out our requirements from them !

Singapore has extensive security agreements with us and a significant part of their weapons are stationed in India
By the way, what exactly do you mean by the latter part of the statement ?? And what technical expertise does Singapore have in avionics and aeronautics that can help us ?? Care to enlighten us !

Finally, what I feel is that the AMCA should stay an Indian project with limited and necessary cooperation from other nations !! Israel can help us with avionics and weaponry, then we can source the required components from them just like we have done in the past for the MKI. Radars, we can build on our own, and if we face some issues, then we can consult either the Russians, the French or the Israelis again !! If we keep making excuses that such advanced technology components need to be sourced from countries that have experience in that field, then we will forever be dependent on them. Rather, we should involve own private sector for sourcing these components, and make do with foreign components critical to the project, till the time they come up with indigenous versions of critical components. That way, our own industries will develop valuable expertise and gain from this experience in the future. Frankly, I think the Indian private sector can do as good a job as that of any developed nation if they have the required resources which shouldn't be a problem with government and private sector funding !!
 

neo29

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Why would Israel enter into a JV with India when they already getting F-35? A
In that case why are we going for AMCA when we will be getting Pak FA and FGFA ???

Israel is keen to develop a 5th gen fighter and not to buy from others, similar is our case. They buying F-35 to project power in the region, that too only 20. Seeing LCA project by the time we build AMCA i think a 6th gen fighter will be deployed by others. Its better we go for a JV with Israel. Past JV for India has always worked wonders.

Singapore is not qualified to build advanced avionics fighter. A definite no for Singapore JV.
 

sandeepdg

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In that case why are we going for AMCA when we will be getting Pak FA and FGFA ???

Israel is keen to develop a 5th gen fighter and not to buy from others, similar is our case.
When did the Israelis announce that they are planning to develop a 5th generation fighter ??? You have any link for this info, then please share. There's no news relating to this on the web. And mate, I think you are confused between the PAK-FA and FGFA !! PAK-FA is the Russian version of the T-50 and FGFA is the Indian version of the same ! They are different versions of the same aircraft, the Russian PAK-FA will join the Russian Air force as a single seat fighter and the Indian FGFA will join IAF as a twin seater version of the PAK-FA. So, we will be getting the FGFA and not the PAK-FA, since FGFA is designed according to our needs.
 

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