INSAS Rifle, LMG & Carbine

[ezsasa]

How? Beretta MX4 (9x19mm) is the size of an AR 15 pistol (5.56x45mm). You can get a JVPC carbine (5.56x30mm) for much less!

Comparison :

AR 15 (5.56x45mm)

JVPC (5.56x30mm)

MX4 STORM (9x19mm)

By this time next year, we will know whether JVPC is a hit or a flop.

Let the current order of ~2000 JVPC go out to the field(MHA I think), hopefully there would be feedback in public domain.

 

[ezsasa]

Although @Kunal Biswas already replied, I would just highlight the aspect.

I was talking about increase in operational cost of the troops. ITBP or BSF operates three different caliber as of now.
5.56 NATO
7.62 AK
9x19 parabellum.
These are standard operating rounds available at any given time apart from few special ones. Now bring in 5.56 MINSAS and it mean 4 different rounds. Operational cost for any commander would increase with that.

We can't replace any of the existing rounds with MINSAS as of now.

Another aspect for non deployment of JVPC on front line is its maturity. As a weapon system it has not matured enough. It would be good to deploy them with CISF as replacement for 9 mm SMG forst and let it mature enough.

Is the operational cost argument still valid these days? MHA has more than 1 lakh crore budget..

Let them experiment, let them evolve..

 

[darshan978]

Is the operational cost argument still valid these days? MHA has more than 1 lakh crore budget..

Let them experiment, let them evolve..

plus 9mm ammo is dud ammo.
they should have gone for jvpc it can penetrate bullet proof jacket atleast

 

[vampyrbladez]

By this time next year, we will know whether JVPC is a hit or a flop.

Let the current order of ~2000 JVPC go out to the field(MHA I think), hopefully there would be feedback in public domain.

JVPC is a solid design which is better than FN P90 and MP7 in terms of ballistics and cost. This is an exceptionally rare feat by OFB and ARDE considering how bad INSAS's design turned out to be.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

5.56x30mm is originally a requirement of Army, BSF and other are merely adapting it slowly..

Just like they saw RR and copied it with respect to AK.

==========

INSAS 1B1 design is very good.

plus 9mm ammo is dud ammo.
they should have gone for jvpc it can penetrate bullet proof jacket atleast

how bad INSAS's design turned out to be.

 

[Chinmoy]

Is the operational cost argument still valid these days? MHA has more than 1 lakh crore budget..

Let them experiment, let them evolve..

Yes............ It is very much valid even today. 1 Lakh Crore budget is for overall acquisition, Not just ammo acquisition.

For experimental purpose only JVPC has been handed over to CISF & few state police.

 

[Chinmoy]

plus 9mm ammo is dud ammo.
they should have gone for jvpc it can penetrate bullet proof jacket atleast

What about the side arm?

If we cud build one handgun for MINSAS round, then its fine. Or we would need to adapt JVPC as a sidearm. Now this is not going to happen. Or is it?

 

[vampyrbladez]

5.56x30mm is originally a requirement of Army, BSF and other are merely adapting it slowly..

Just like they saw RR and copied it with respect to AK.

==========

INSAS 1B1 design is very good.

Sir I am grateful for and salute your service to this nation but I must respectfully disagree. The INSAS 1B1 is NOT a good design.

I will state the reasons for that :

1) Poor construction quality especially the examples from Kanpur OFB.

2) Low rate of fire. Absence of full auto. 5.56 round was designed for controlled automatic fire.

3) Lack of picatinny rail mount on 1B1. Dust cover transfers problems of zeroing via sights ; same as in AK.

4) Plastic hand guard is brittle. Upper part is known to snap off. This makes it impossible to have sights attached for zeroing at close distances near grip.

5) Lack of thicker barrel and hand guard means sustained automatic fire is difficult.

6) Chamber pressure of Indian manufactured 5.56x45 mm rounds is higher than NATO ones. Causes excess fouling.

There are many more but the end result is a rather disappointing gun.

 

[vampyrbladez]

What about the side arm?

If we cud build one handgun for MINSAS round, then its fine. Or we would need to adapt JVPC as a sidearm. Now this is not going to happen. Or is it?

Replace Sterling Carbine with JVPC. That will give higher lethality at a range of up to 200 m which is adequate for border patrols and rear echleon troops who may face enemy paratroopers and commando action like cooks, clerks and MPs.

 

[Chinmoy]

Replace Sterling Carbine with JVPC. That will give higher lethality at a range of up to 200 m which is adequate for border patrols and rear echleon troops who may face enemy paratroopers and commando action like cooks, clerks and MPs.

Agreed............

In place of Sterling, systems like MX4 has been brought in. But you have to keep in mind that Sterling, MX4 and Browning handgun share the same 9x19 parabellum round.

So technically you have a single round for all the three weapon systems. But the moment you bring in JVPC, you would have to adapt a new round. Now sterling or MX4 would get replaced, but what about the Browning? We can't replace it as a side arm.

That means the troops would have to adapt one more extra ammo along with the existing ammo. So it would put pressure in terms of logistics and overall operational cost.

 

[vampyrbladez]

Agreed............

In place of Sterling, systems like MX4 has been brought in. But you have to keep in mind that Sterling, MX4 and Browning handgun share the same 9x19 parabellum round.

So technically you have a single round for all the three weapon systems. But the moment you bring in JVPC, you would have to adapt a new round. Now sterling or MX4 would get replaced, but what about the Browning? We can't replace it as a side arm.

That means the troops would have to adapt one more extra ammo along with the existing ammo. So it would put pressure in terms of logistics and overall operational cost.

Wouldn't it be better to localize logistics to each unit? Have some units operate with 7.62x39 mm, 5.56x45 mm and 9x19 mm.
Others could operate with 7.62x39 mm, 5.56x30 mm and 9x19 mm.

 

[Chinmoy]

Wouldn't it be better to localize logistics to each unit? Have some units operate with 7.62x39 mm, 5.56x45 mm and 9x19 mm.
Others could operate with 7.62x39 mm, 5.56x30 mm and 9x19 mm.

Just one sentence would sum up it all.


NIGHTMARE for any commander. No one would think and try to do anything like that.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

The points you raised are already talked to death on this thread and its former once, but i will still repeat them.

1. OFB only assemble the parts made by private sectors which are selected through L1 bidding system.
2. Why need for full auto when we have LMG for suppressive fire.
3. 1B1 dust cover is thicker and its joined with rest of the rifle unlike AK, zeroing was never an issue, their is rail for optics on rifle and P-rails can be used on it as well.

4. Its fiber body is strongest compare all other firearm in service, we never had upper part removed and the units which remove them is for sake of ease in field maintenance.

5. Barrel is better than most other including Israeli once in service, Refer to point no 2.
6. Not true, Its the other way around : http://i.imgur.com/btJdIIJ.jpg

=================

I have covered most of the misunderstood points and disinformation in this thread and other two thread before this one.

Sir I am grateful for and salute your service to this nation but I must respectfully disagree. The INSAS 1B1 is NOT a good design.

I will state the reasons for that :

1) Poor construction quality especially the examples from Kanpur OFB.

2) Low rate of fire. Absence of full auto. 5.56 round was designed for controlled automatic fire.

3) Lack of picatinny rail mount on 1B1. Dust cover transfers problems of zeroing via sights ; same as in AK.

4) Plastic hand guard is brittle. Upper part is known to snap off. This makes it impossible to have sights attached for zeroing at close distances near grip.

5) Lack of thicker barrel and hand guard means sustained automatic fire is difficult.

6) Chamber pressure of Indian manufactured 5.56x45 mm rounds is higher than NATO ones. Causes excess fouling.

There are many more but the end result is a rather disappointing gun.

 

[ezsasa]

Wouldn't it be better to localize logistics to each unit? Have some units operate with 7.62x39 mm, 5.56x45 mm and 9x19 mm.
Others could operate with 7.62x39 mm, 5.56x30 mm and 9x19 mm.

That’s what is happening I think..

Areas where there is less infiltration on IB, we see beretta storm mostly.

Areas where there is slightly more infiltration we don’t see beretta. Mostly INSAS in the west and AK’s on the east.

 

[vampyrbladez]

The points you raised are already talked to death on this thread and its former once, but i will still repeat them.

1. OFB only assemble the parts made by private sectors which are selected through L1 bidding system.
2. Why need for full auto when we have LMG for suppressive fire.
3. 1B1 dust cover is thicker and its joined with rest of the rifle unlike AK, zeroing was never an issue, their is rail for optics on rifle and P-rails can be used on it as well.

4. Its fiber body is strongest compare all other firearm in service, we never had upper part removed and the units which remove them is for sake of ease in field maintenance.

5. Barrel is better than most other including Israeli once in service, Refer to point no 2.
6. Not true, Its the other way around : http://i.imgur.com/btJdIIJ.jpg

=================

I have covered most of the misunderstood points and disinformation in this thread and other two thread before this one.

I still differ on the full auto. It is needed for CQB and room clearing. We are forced to use AKs as a result.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

The mass Intervention of AK happened during mid-late 90s even before the arrival of INSAS firearms in mass, where 9mm was found a lesser range and lack punch compare to what Terrorist were using, Back then most units had SLR which was ill suited for the need, Hence we imported various AKs from various origins and latter OFB produced copies of AKs without permission of Russians / east block, Due to the satisfaction with AKs in preform-ace and quantity, their were never really need for INSAS carbine back in days.

I still differ on the full auto. It is needed for CQB and room clearing. We are forced to use AKs as a result.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

INSAS Light Machine Gun, Random pics ..

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Replied in small arms thread..

https://defenceforumindia.com/forum/threads/small-arms-of-india.50038/page-88

 

[Craigs]

INSAS Light Machine Gun, Random pics ..

WT(Actual)F. LMG operator in full ghillie?? Full auto sniping? What exactly is he trying to do here or is this a version of services humor??

 

[Kunal Biswas]

That is a rifleman with LMG, The suit is available to individual solider as well..

WT(Actual)F. LMG operator in full ghillie?? Full auto sniping? What exactly is he trying to do here or is this a version of services humor??