INSAS Rifle, LMG & Carbine

[binayak95]

Insas don't have bad reputation at all, some dubious media tarnished its image, that's all. And everybody knows that those who dare to criticise insas based their criticism only upon media reports, nothing else. Insas (especially 1b1) has carved a niche of itself and served IA and paramil excellently till now. Currently IA is looking for a higher calibre battle rifle.

Stop being an ostrich. Talk to anyone, anyone, who serves in the infantry branch and you'll have your answer, Niche, my ass! That's the reason that the ones who see frontline service in Kashmir prefer Kalashnikovs. So much so that thousands have been imported.

 

[Kchontha]

Stop being an ostrich. Talk to anyone, anyone, who serves in the infantry branch and you'll have your answer, Niche, my ass! That's the reason that the ones who see frontline service in Kashmir prefer Kalashnikovs. So much so that thousands have been imported.

LOL! Why do you feel insulted yourself when Insas is praised? Don't be double faced. . . You can't just deny that insas is serving in the desert of India to Siachen to NE to naxal infested areas of India.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

A bit into past history that AK used in CT operation is more because its used instead of carbines and not traditional rifle such as 1B1 or SLR, During early 90s, 9mm carbine were preferred instead of SLR but 9mms are dangerous firearm if not maintained well also they were not effective in mid ranges, AK was bought due to that very reason even before INSAS variant were introduced ..

In tactics the AK suit more to the need of 'spray and pray' 1B1 on other hand is more a precision firearm, you will always find few 1B1 with scope or just with iron sights in squads involve counter insurgency operations ..

@Kchontha , INSAS variants have their share of problems but that was past, We get more sensitive with firearms that made and design in India and expect it to work nothing but 101% free of problems which is not possible, AK and other firearms in Army also jams regularly while in continual use ..

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PS : Sorry folks, I am bit busy with things going on and could not find much time to make replies in the forum, happy posting to all anyways ..

Stop being an ostrich. Talk to anyone, anyone, who serves in the infantry branch and you'll have your answer, Niche, my ass! That's the reason that the ones who see front-line service in Kashmir prefer Kalashnikov. So much so that thousands have been imported.

LOL! Why do you feel insulted yourself when Insas is praised? Don't be double faced. . . You can't just deny that insas is serving in the desert of India to Siachen to NE to naxal infested areas of India.

 

[mayfair]

Long time no see, welcome back @Kunal Biswas.

 

[binayak95]

LOL! Why do you feel insulted yourself when Insas is praised? Don't be double faced. . . You can't just deny that insas is serving in the desert of India to Siachen to NE to naxal infested areas of India.

Its not a matter of insult! Its a matter of lives. I personally have been injured when an orange furniture INSAS fucking exploded in my hands. Exploded! Do you understand what that means? Indian 5.56 bullets are hotter than standard NATO stuff. It blew off in the firing chamber.

It was fucking 1st term too. We were told to fire on semi auto - after about five rounds - the rifle started belching out TRB even though the selector was on R. (rapid - semi auto). Then as the mag was about to be emptied - it blew the fuck up!

It is being used because its the STANDARD ISSUE! Where troops have the option of choosing different - they go for AKs !

 

[binayak95]

A bit into past history that AK used in CT operation is more because its used instead of carbines and not traditional rifle such as 1B1 or SLR, During early 90s, 9mm carbine were preferred instead of SLR but 9mms are dangerous firearm if not maintained well also they were not effective in mid ranges, AK was bought due to that very reason even before INSAS variant were introduced ..

In tactics the AK suit more to the need of 'spray and pray' 1B1 on other hand is more a precision firearm, you will always find few 1B1 with scope or just with iron sights in squads involve counter insurgency operations ..

@Kchontha , INSAS variants have their share of problems but that was past, We get more sensitive with firearms that made and design in India and expect it to work nothing but 101% free of problems which is not possible, AK and other firearms in Army also jams regularly while in continual use ..

===============

PS : Sorry folks, I am bit busy with things going on and could not find much time to make replies in the forum, happy posting to all anyways ..

Kunal dada ! Welcome back!

I get what you're saying full auto suppressive fire backed by the heavier more lethal 7.62x39 Russki round. But my point stands and you know well that Kanpur guns are horribly made.

 

[Kchontha]

INSAS variants have their share of problems but that was past, We get more sensitive with firearms that made and design in India and expect it to work nothing but 101% free of problems which is not possible, AK and other firearms in Army also jams regularly while in continual use ..

Welcome back @Kunal sir! Missed your posting. I understand what you are saying. @binayak95! I feel sorry that the orange furniture exploded in your hand. It do happen in other guns also, insas is not the exception.

 

[Pandeyji]

Sorry to butt in, I have some experience of handling INSAS during NCC. I found it user friendly & our Ustad excessively praised it (he had used it in Kargil). Most of the soldiers I have talked to that have used INSAS actually praise it. But I would also say that there are those in forces who hate the gun.

And that is the most interesting part. Apparently nobody could have a neutral opinion on the gun (even in the forces). Those who love it wouldn't hear a word against it & those who hate it, wouldn't hear a word in favor of it. There are no neutrals. So I dont think we could ever determine whether it's good or bad in this generation.

@binayak95 Babumoshai two things

• AK47 are used because they are full automatic guns, a feature that our geniuses in Army procurement refused for INSAS, because it wastes ammunition. It were they who insisted on single shot & burst fire only.
• By any chance, did you use rifles from police armory?

 

[Hari Sud]

It sounds very fine and dandy to say that all teething problems have been resolved with Insas IC but the fact remains that the 1C hasn't seen service in any meaningful numbers with any of the three services. While the 1Bs being produced remain splotchy and horrible. Have you actually fired any of the Insas IBs?

They jam up once every 20 rounds, blow up in your face and be a complete headache to maintain. I have fired the Insas four times. Each time, I fired 3 20 round mags through the 1Bs. The guns jammed every fucking time. Had to be manually cleared and the best of all things, the first time, it blew up in my face. The whole lower receiver exppoded!!

That's the rifle that Indian troops use day in and day out. Forgive us for not trusting ofb to make anything half decent.

No jams after 20 rounds anymore. Those were a few but not many incidents of 1999. A few of these incidents are used to foul mouth a decently working rifle. Now these incidents do not happen as often, but foul mouthing continues for 1C. Most of it is done by hired help of 18 years olds who have not seen the business end of any rifle. How do we trust anybody who has not finished growing up yet.

I state it once again that 1C should continue until a decently priced 7.62 caliber either developed & built by private sector in India is made available or decently priced foreign rifle but assembled in India under a license agreement is available. The pricey one’s manufacturers can stuff it wherever they want. If India does not place a massive order as planned then these German, Belgian and Swiss companies will have it eat the R& D costs themselves. That will be a good lesson for them.

 

[binayak95]

Sorry to butt in, I have some experience of handling INSAS during NCC. I found it user friendly & our Ustad excessively praised it (he had used it in Kargil). Most of the soldiers I have talked to that have used INSAS actually praise it. But I would also say that there are those in forces who hate the gun.

And that is the most interesting part. Apparently nobody could have a neutral opinion on the gun (even in the forces). Those who love it wouldn't hear a word against it & those who hate it, wouldn't hear a word in favor of it. There are no neutrals. So I dont think we could ever determine whether it's good or bad in this generation.

@binayak95 Babumoshai two things

• AK47 are used because they are full automatic guns, a feature that our geniuses in Army procurement refused for INSAS, because it wastes ammunition. It were they who insisted on single shot & burst fire only.
• By any chance, did you use rifles from police armory?

No. I'm a former cadet of the Indian Naval Academy. I fired INSAS rifles throughout my four terms in the academy.

Every instance there have been failures to properly battery the rounds, jams caused by improper ejection and other issues. Thankfully that explosion was a one off.

And yeah, the orange furniture INSASs are far far worse than their black furniture lighter variants.

 

[binayak95]

Bhai, have you handled INSASs? I have. On a regular basis throughout 2014-15. Granted I was in the navy but I have coursemates in the army who'd attest to everything I have said. Now again, the 1Cs might be absolutely amazing. But I haven't seen one in service with the three branches of the military so no comments.

What do you mean by eat the R&D costs? There are dozens of good rifles already developed ans in use by our own SFs in 7.62 NATO. SIG 716, SCAR-H for example. And the other rifles with the exception of the Tavor 7 are well in serial production.

No jams after 20 rounds anymore. Those were a few but not many incidents of 1999. A few of these incidents are used to foul mouth a decently working rifle. Now these incidents do not happen as often, but foul mouthing continues for 1C. Most of it is done by hired help of 18 years olds who have not seen the business end of any rifle. How do we trust anybody who has not finished growing up yet.

I state it once again that 1C should continue until a decently priced 7.62 caliber either developed & built by private sector in India is made available or decently priced foreign rifle but assembled in India under a license agreement is available. The pricey one’s manufacturers can stuff it wherever they want. If India does not place a massive order as planned then these German, Belgian and Swiss companies will have it eat the R& D costs themselves. That will be a good lesson for them.

 

[Unknowncommando 2]

TAR

INSAS 1C 5.56 mm

 

[Hari Sud]

Has it not been said countless times that DRDO/OFB developed prototype rifles are fine. It is the mass production at OFB which is questionable.

 

[Vishal Chandorkar]

Has it not been said countless times that DRDO/OFB developed prototype rifles are fine. It is the mass production at OFB which is questionable.

Then they shud rope in a private entity to manufacture the rifles, eg the 1C, so as to avoid the hoody work at OFB

 

[Vishal Chandorkar]

Bhai, have you handled INSASs? I have. On a regular basis throughout 2014-15. Granted I was in the navy but I have coursemates in the army who'd attest to everything I have said. Now again, the 1Cs might be absolutely amazing. But I haven't seen one in service with the three branches of the military so no comments.

What do you mean by eat the R&D costs? There are dozens of good rifles already developed ans in use by our own SFs in 7.62 NATO. SIG 716, SCAR-H for example. And the other rifles with the exception of the Tavor 7 are well in serial production.

The 1C’s are in service with the CRPF, and there have been good reviews about it. I think the army should use the 1C’s, until they find a suitable 7.62*51. After all, it can’t happen soon. So till that time why not use a better rifle than keep using the older orange furniture insas, which are notorious for their problems. The SIG’s and SCAR’s that you mentioned are expensive rifles, and not feasible to arm all our infantry battalions, especially in times of constrained budgetary allocations. Attention should also be given to the OFB 7.62*51 rifle, instead of just looking for outside options. I read in the same thread that it bettered other foreign rifles of the same caliber in trials. Why not rope in a private entity to manufacture these, if they are found satisfactory. This will solve the problem of shoddy work done by OFB in manufacturing. I believe INSAS has evolved into its own as a weapon system, after the initial hiccups. Now when you have two good designs (1C and 7.62*51), instead of abandoning them we should develop them further and have an entire family of Insas firearms, just like foreign manufacturers have. This is how our Navy has evolved into a builders navy from a buyers navy. There have been enough examples in the past when indigenously designed weapon systems (HF Marut in favour of Jaguars)were abandoned abruptly in favour of foreign ones which turned to be not so suitable for the role intended

 

[Unknowncommando 2]

Excalibur MK-1 Rifle
Manipur Police

 

[tsunami]

Any news on MCIWS what is the status? Is any trials going on or it's failed?

 

[Kchontha]

Any news on MCIWS what is the status? Is any trials going on or it's failed?

Eversince the cancellation of Indian army's multi caliber assault rifle contest MCIWS has been renamed as Advanced Assault Rifle (AAR). No, it does not fail. A lot of in-house trial and R&D is involved in this concept since this rifle is meant for FINSAS. It is in prototyping phase. Therefore a lot of fine tuning, adjustment and finishing touches is going on at the moment, it will take time. IMHO it should involve a battle rifle, an assault rifle, a carbine, an LMG and a DMR versions to complete a package.

 

[Vishal Chandorkar]

It's speculated that ak103 is meant for production in the small arms factory kanpur since rifle factory ishapur has ghatak while ordinance factory Trichi has tar. IMHO then there will be an internal competition between these three, the winner will replace all the Romanian and Bulgarian origin AKs. Last time there was an internal competition between ishapur and Trichi and ishapur's design came out winner and went into production. Eversince then tar also went into some design changes and it also get some orders from some state police.

Is there a need to replace the Romanian and Bulgarian AKs? I find them in better condition than the ones used by RR

 

[tharun]

A bit into past history that AK used in CT operation is more because its used instead of carbines and not traditional rifle such as 1B1 or SLR, During early 90s, 9mm carbine were preferred instead of SLR but 9mms are dangerous firearm if not maintained well also they were not effective in mid ranges, AK was bought due to that very reason even before INSAS variant were introduced ..

In tactics the AK suit more to the need of 'spray and pray' 1B1 on other hand is more a precision firearm, you will always find few 1B1 with scope or just with iron sights in squads involve counter insurgency operations ..


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PS : Sorry folks, I am bit busy with things going on and could not find much time to make replies in the forum, happy posting to all anyways ..

Welcome back bro. It's been a long time.
I want ask few questions regarding rifles for army.
1)Tell me one or two guns that comes to mind that will replace every assault rifle in the country.
2)Is short or long stroke is good? I have seen ACR rifle field strip, it had some features of insas like front charging handle which is non-reciprocating but the piston system system is different.