INSAS Excalibur In Person

[Kunal Biswas]

I think paramilitary is intersted in Trichary Assult Rifle as its design as per there requirement,

===============
@Shaitan, Crowd was heavy and i could not take more pictures nor asked many questions, if i have opportunity again will take more detail pics and will ask questions ..

Cheers !

this is very much an improvent over insas ib1.can this rifle be chambered for 7.62*39/51 round to make good use of the automatic firing capability against terrorist and naxals?also can this rifle be modified with a longer barrel to be made into a squad level general purpose machine gun?

 

[DivineHeretic]

Sir, The Rifle usability is in both Conventional warfare and Irregular warfare but unlike present INSAS 1B1 this rifle ' Excalibur ' INSAS has a larger role to play in Irregular warfare, This is due to its design which is compact and have full automatic mode like Carbines & AK have ..

It is also a 'Game Changer' due to its light weight which benefits a Solider as a system as it enhance his endurance or provide ability to carry more luggage / Ammunition, In irregular warfare this rifle could solve issue of standardization of ammo and ease logistics of spare parts ..

Weight reduction cuts both ways. Your are absolutely right as to the advantages of a lighter rifle, but there are certain drawbacks to a lighter weight, especially when used in full auto mode.

The biggest one is the issue of muzzle climb. Keeping all other aspects (bullet characteristics, length etc) same, a heavier rifle has a far lower muzzle climb than a lighter rifle, enabling a better aim when used in auto. Indeed a Uzi has a very high muzzle climb, making aiming near impossible at full auto, while the Mp-5 with the same round has negligible muzzle climb due to its increased weight.

The Excalibur will face the same problem being a kilo lighter than the INSAS. But at the same time, I'm impressed with the choice of stocks offered with the Excalibur. This is a far superior design, engineering and recoil mechanics wise than the ones on the INSAS or the Ak-47. I could explain the engineering advantages, but that's unnecessary.

But safe to say that when you test the Excalibur or the INSAS with these new stocks and compare with the older ones, you will find the difference in muzzle climb surprising.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

A longer and heavy weapon may not necessarily be a better handling one if the balance is wrong, It is essential that weapon is balanced accordingly to the design..

INSAS 1B1 & INSAS Excalibur have there design solution to this issue which you are referring, I haven't fired Excalibur but when holding it, I could understand the weight is at forwards rather than center like 1B1 ..

One more important point, In Full auto the accuracy is more or less same for all rifles, Only in burst, things are on to a target, Lets say 70ms ...

Weight reduction cuts both ways. Your are absolutely right as to the advantages of a lighter rifle, but there are certain drawbacks to a lighter weight, especially when used in full auto mode.

The biggest one is the issue of muzzle climb. Keeping all other aspects (bullet characteristics, length etc) same, a heavier rifle has a far lower muzzle climb than a lighter rifle, enabling a better aim when used in auto. Indeed a Uzi has a very high muzzle climb, making aiming near impossible at full auto, while the Mp-5 with the same round has negligible muzzle climb due to its increased weight.

 

[Immanuel]

I am not a fan of both the folding stock or the regular one, I would rather, they modify the stock into a straight collapsible one like the msmc for both the Amogh and the Excalibur. Also would be nice to have a quad rail out front and a standard fore grip. A standard MEPRO sight would be nice too.

I also think the 30 round mag should be standard with 29 rounds in mag and 1 in chamber so that the spring action is nice steady, SAS guys use the same technique.

@ Kunal, your experiences with stocks, which one do you prefer? Folding or standard or collapsible stocks?

 

[Immanuel]

I also think, they should standardize the names, MSMC can be Excalibur Sub Machine Gun, Amogh can be Excalibur Carbine and Excalibur can be the Assault Rifle.

 

[captonjohn]

The rifle looks impressive, I don't understand why our government always look for importing large no. of rifles when we already have good options or even we can get better with home made rifles. That is the fundamental fact, don't they see it?

 

[hitesh]

I am not a fan of both the folding stock or the regular one, I would rather, they modify the stock into a straight collapsible one like the msmc for both the Amogh and the Excalibur. Also would be nice to have a quad rail out front and a standard fore grip. A standard MEPRO sight would be nice too.

I also think the 30 round mag should be standard with 29 rounds in mag and 1 in chamber so that the spring action is nice steady, SAS guys use the same technique.

@ Kunal, your experiences with stocks, which one do you prefer? Folding or standard or collapsible stocks?

Firstly what is IA's SOP, Standard Operating Procedure for its infantry
1. No Auto for rifle ,they are taught 1 bullet 1 enemy principle to tackle ammo shortage in middle of battle IA is no US forces that has a robust supply chain that keeps up with its supply in middle of war .
2. Always keep chamber empty when not needed to avoid accidental firing.

So forget Auto mode for infantry ,and when you are not firing indiscriminately so don't need a 30 mag ,as per IA

 

[Kunal Biswas]

If Auto firing was restricted there would be no AK with 30rnd mag and tactics based on Spray and Pray that is excised in CT ops ..

Full auto does not mean indiscriminate fire but effective in providing cover fire or pinning enemy down, Indeed our teaching is 1 bullet 1 enemy ..

This is well practiced in Conventional sense where 1B1 fits the role perfectly ..

Firstly what is IA's SOP, Standard Operating Procedure for its infantry

1. No Auto for rifle ,they are taught 1 bullet 1 enemy principle to tackle ammo shortage in middle of battle IA is no US forces that has a robust supply chain that keeps up with its supply in middle of war .
2. Always keep chamber empty when not needed to avoid accidental firing.

So forget Auto mode for infantry ,and when you are not firing indiscriminately so don't need a 30 mag ,as per IA

 

[The Last Stand]

@Kunal Biswas @sayareakd

Sir,

I mentioned a few months back that I saw one of these weapons on a coast guard ship. It was definitely the Amogh, 30 round magazine. It had a short barrel, nearly as short as say, an M4 Carbine. One of the men remarked that it was pretty light for its size. Pity, they had no live rounds there.

 

[pmaitra]

I could explain the engineering advantages, but that's unnecessary.

I would like to read your explanation.

 

[Punya Pratap]

Dear Kunal,

I was wondering whether the INSAS in their new avtaars have refined on their previous versions especially the over heating and jamming.

 

[DivineHeretic]

I would like to read your explanation.

The muzzle climb is primarily due to torque. Yup, the same RxF torque we used to study at 11th standard.

And with any case involving torque, there exist a point of application of force and a point about which the object (in this case the rifle) rotates, both lying in the same plane.

Here in the image above, the black point is the point about which the rifle attempts to rotate, and the blue line indicates the line of action of recoil force due to the bullet leaving the barrel. (The reaction force always acts along the line of action, but in the opposite direction)

As can be seen, there is quite a bit of vertical gap between the point of contact and the line or recoil. As such, a torque is generated about the black mark, which in this arrangement comes to be anticlockwise, resulting in the muzzle climb. If the situation was reversed and the gun barrel was below the point of support (contact), the torque would be clockwise, i.e. downward muzzle movement.

However, with the new stock, as can be seen in the image below, the line of action of recoil passes nearly through the point of contact. This implies that there will be nearly no muzzle climb. In effect, the shoulder will be in line with the barrel when the recoil comes, unlike in case of Ak-47, where the rifle barrel is quite above the shoulder. (This is even better in case of certain other rifles.)

Of course many may wonder why I have positioned the support point above where I positioned it on the AK-47, but this is actually the location of centre of pressure. In the case of AK-47, the line of action passes above the stock at the plane of contact, as such, this has a different effect on center of pressure. The forces are evenly distributed across the cross section of the stock end in the case of Ak-47.

While in case of the Excalibur, the line of action of recoil passes through the top of the stock at the plane of contact, meaning the most of the recoil force is concentrated at that point, thus the difference.

Also, the choice of polymer material has another set of advantages. The most important being that polymer is a much better dampener than wood or iron for energy passing through the same thickness of material. As such, shoulder fatigue sets in much later as the shoulder is protected to a greater degree from the energy of recoil.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

I cannot answer your qestion which is based on media reports, Before answering i have to put some details into your questions ..

First you have to know about INSAS which is your own country firearm, INSAS stands for Indian Small arm system, It includes 1B, 1B1 and Improved 1B1 so does Excalibur and Amogh as well as Kalantak & MSMC, These are all Insas ..

I think you are referring to 1B1, It has Jamming and overheating issue in past this is mostly due to obsolete procedure of cleaning and oiling the Rifle which is now changed and there are no problems, Improved 1B1 are operational in Army cannot say about Police or paramilitary..

Excaliber existed since 1B1 was introduced ..

Dear Kunal,

I was wondering whether the INSAS in their new avtaars have refined on their previous versions especially the over heating and jamming.

 

[tomthounaojam]

Hey kunal is any Unit of armed force State/Central force using Excalibur?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Was under use of PARA SF and some elite units of GR, About Police and Paramilitary i cant say, Though will ask when have opportunity again ..

Hey kunal is any Unit of armed force State/Central force using Excalibur?

 

[tomthounaojam]

thanks mate and I will try come often here, mp.n is going heywired lolx.

 

[hitesh]

If Auto firing was restricted there would be no AK with 30rnd mag and tactics based on Spray and Pray that is excised in CT ops ..

Full auto does not mean indiscriminate fire but effective in providing cover fire or pinning enemy down, Indeed our teaching is 1 bullet 1 enemy ..

This is well practiced in Conventional sense where 1B1 fits the role perfectly ..

AK47 was designed with soviet doctrine of compensating the numeric strength with auto firing guns which would create a wall of bullets and with which solders could be easily trained as it had bigger and less no of parts which required less maintenance. In CQB or CT operation the response time is very low for a solder to aim and shoot so the same soviet doctrine becomes effective in such situation .For IA adopting Ak47 or AKM in j&k was because it did not have an automatic rifle ,as there primary weapon was bulky semi-auto SLR and Srilanka conflict tough them a bitter lesson of how bad the idea of using a semi auto battle rifle would be when facing AK touting tamil tigers. So they adopted AK as it was cheap and easy to acquire ,easy to train. I once heard a talk of a brigadier where he was saying that use of AK's in JK is not because of its bigger round than 5.56 nato but because of availability,rate of fire and reliability and i agree his statement that's why we have tavore full auto 5.56mm in J&k for Special operators.

 

[Immanuel]

Firstly what is IA's SOP, Standard Operating Procedure for its infantry
1. No Auto for rifle ,they are taught 1 bullet 1 enemy principle to tackle ammo shortage in middle of battle IA is no US forces that has a robust supply chain that keeps up with its supply in middle of war .
2. Always keep chamber empty when not needed to avoid accidental firing.

So forget Auto mode for infantry ,and when you are not firing indiscriminately so don't need a 30 mag ,as per IA

True, i am not suggesting IA change its policy rather, to have 30 round mags and load one when ready to go into battle so that there is always one in chamber when going into action, also we do have safetys on the gun itself.

 

[Immanuel]

The muzzle climb is primarily due to torque. Yup, the same RxF torque we used to study at 11th standard.

And with any case involving torque, there exist a point of application of force and a point about which the object (in this case the rifle) rotates, both lying in the same plane.

Here in the image above, the black point is the point about which the rifle attempts to rotate, and the blue line indicates the line of action of recoil force due to the bullet leaving the barrel. (The reaction force always acts along the line of action, but in the opposite direction)

As can be seen, there is quite a bit of vertical gap between the point of contact and the line or recoil. As such, a torque is generated about the black mark, which in this arrangement comes to be anticlockwise, resulting in the muzzle climb. If the situation was reversed and the gun barrel was below the point of support (contact), the torque would be clockwise, i.e. downward muzzle movement.

However, with the new stock, as can be seen in the image below, the line of action of recoil passes nearly through the point of contact. This implies that there will be nearly no muzzle climb. In effect, the shoulder will be in line with the barrel when the recoil comes, unlike in case of Ak-47, where the rifle barrel is quite above the shoulder. (This is even better in case of certain other rifles.)

Of course many may wonder why I have positioned the support point above where I positioned it on the AK-47, but this is actually the location of centre of pressure. In the case of AK-47, the line of action passes above the stock at the plane of contact, as such, this has a different effect on center of pressure. The forces are evenly distributed across the cross section of the stock end in the case of Ak-47.

While in case of the Excalibur, the line of action of recoil passes through the top of the stock at the plane of contact, meaning the most of the recoil force is concentrated at that point, thus the difference.

Also, the choice of polymer material has another set of advantages. The most important being that polymer is a much better dampener than wood or iron for energy passing through the same thickness of material. As such, shoulder fatigue sets in much later as the shoulder is protected to a greater degree from the energy of recoil.

great points, what would be the effect of having a straight collapsible stock instead of the slightly curved one?

 

[hitesh]

The muzzle climb is primarily due to torque. Yup, the same RxF torque we used to study at 11th standard.

And with any case involving torque, there exist a point of application of force and a point about which the object (in this case the rifle) rotates, both lying in the same plane.

Here in the image above, the black point is the point about which the rifle attempts to rotate, and the blue line indicates the line of action of recoil force due to the bullet leaving the barrel. (The reaction force always acts along the line of action, but in the opposite direction)

As can be seen, there is quite a bit of vertical gap between the point of contact and the line or recoil. As such, a torque is generated about the black mark, which in this arrangement comes to be anticlockwise, resulting in the muzzle climb. If the situation was reversed and the gun barrel was below the point of support (contact), the torque would be clockwise, i.e. downward muzzle movement.

However, with the new stock, as can be seen in the image below, the line of action of recoil passes nearly through the point of contact. This implies that there will be nearly no muzzle climb. In effect, the shoulder will be in line with the barrel when the recoil comes, unlike in case of Ak-47, where the rifle barrel is quite above the shoulder. (This is even better in case of certain other rifles.)

Of course many may wonder why I have positioned the support point above where I positioned it on the AK-47, but this is actually the location of centre of pressure. In the case of AK-47, the line of action passes above the stock at the plane of contact, as such, this has a different effect on center of pressure. The forces are evenly distributed across the cross section of the stock end in the case of Ak-47.

While in case of the Excalibur, the line of action of recoil passes through the top of the stock at the plane of contact, meaning the most of the recoil force is concentrated at that point, thus the difference.

Also, the choice of polymer material has another set of advantages. The most important being that polymer is a much better dampener than wood or iron for energy passing through the same thickness of material. As such, shoulder fatigue sets in much later as the shoulder is protected to a greater degree from the energy of recoil.

Actually the idea behind having barrel above the shoulder as in Ak47 was due to the fact that our head is above our shoulder so this design tends to put less strain to the neck while shooting and during prolong shooting it cause less fatigue to your neck .