Indigenous Next Generation Anti Radiation Missile Thread

[Armand2REP]

You're mixing disparate things to confuse yourself!

AESA doesn't 'physically' emit a focused beam (those are in the realm of single-frequency rotating radar).

AESA radars emit radiation in ALL directions ALL the time, but they vary the frequencies and phases of the each TR module in such a way that different signals 'destructively interfere' in MOST directions, while 'constructively interfering' in only a small & narrow region at a given instant - which in lay man terms is a 'focused beam'!!
Also, to note is that the 'destructive/constructive interference' is of significance only for the return signals that the AESA radar intends to 'study'. For a third-party detector, it's just 'energy' signals, that it can isolate using spectral analysis or deem as 'energy' coming from a point source in a wide band of frequencies.

Also, triangulation is required if the detecting device is stationary. If a moving detector knows the general direction of the radiating source, it can continuously keep homing into that beam until it impacts the radiating source!!'

Further ARM missiles don't ride the radiation beam for 100kms (the detectors are not so sensitive); they're are GPS enabled to travel to the vicinity of area when it is known that air defense radars would exists. Upon getting close to the purported area, the 'passive seeker' does the rest of the directing.

I am well aware of the complexities of an AESA radar which is why I am skeptical that a single missile can do what it takes a flight of Rafale or a constellation of dedicated satellites to do.

Triangulation will work whether the target is stationary or moving. Its position makes no difference as long as it is actively tracked.

So you are suggesting that there is some magical new seeker and micro super-computer that can be placed in a single missile that can decipher everything a 1000+ module AESA radar can do?

 

[Enquirer]

Dude, you seem to have developed a mental block for this anti-radiation missile that's not letting you comprehend; or maybe you need to go back to basics of physics/electromagnetics.

I am well aware of the complexities of an AESA radar which is why I am skeptical that a single missile can do what it takes a flight of Rafale or a constellation of dedicated satellites to do.

You're getting majorly confused!
Why do you need to pin-point the location? The missile just need to home into a radiation source!
Does a heat-seeking missile need a constellation of satellites to pin-point the location? It just keeps heading to the location where the thermal radiation is coming from! Similarly the ARM will need to know the direction and head towards it!!!

Thermal radiation and AESA radiation just physically just the same.....only in different frequency bands!!

Triangulation will work whether the target is stationary or moving. Its position makes no difference as long as it is actively tracked.

Again you're confused about what I said!
I never said anything about target being stationary or moving! I said triangulation is required to pin-point target location from stationary detectors! When a single detector is moving, it will eventually get to the pin-point location!

So you are suggesting that there is some magical new seeker and micro super-computer that can be placed in a single missile that can decipher everything a 1000+ module AESA radar can do?

Dude! Your level of confusion is phenomenal!!
1000+ modules of AESA are going to be emitting radiation is a certain frequency band (even if individual frequencies are different)....that's why the missile's seeker is a wide band seekers (which can detect various PESA radars operating at different frequencies OR AESA radars that each emit multiple frequencies)

If it is going to be GPS guided to the target area that means it had nothing to lock on to in the first place and is not an Anti-Radiation Missile. You might as well make an optical scan loiter missile if you are going to do that.

No long range missile ever locks onto the target at get-go!!! It'll be absolutely stupid to put in such a large and expensive seeker that will detect heat/radiation/visual-images from 100s of kilometers away!!! Astra, Brahmos (both ship attack or land attack) etc all get their terminal seekers activated in their terminal phases only!!

 

[Armand2REP]

Dude, you seem to have developed a mental block for this anti-radiation missile that's not letting you comprehend; or maybe you need to go back to basics of physics/electromagnetics.


You're getting majorly confused!
Why do you need to pin-point the location? The missile just need to home into a radiation source!
Does a heat-seeking missile need a constellation of satellites to pin-point the location? It just keeps heading to the location where the thermal radiation is coming from! Similarly the ARM will need to know the direction and head towards it!!!

Thermal radiation and AESA radiation just physically just the same.....only in different frequency bands!!


Again you're confused about what I said!
I never said anything about target being stationary or moving! I said triangulation is required to pin-point target location from stationary detectors! When a single detector is moving, it will eventually get to the pin-point location!


Dude! Your level of confusion is phenomenal!!
1000+ modules of AESA are going to be emitting radiation is a certain frequency band (even if individual frequencies are different)....that's why the missile's seeker is a wide band seekers (which can detect various PESA radars operating at different frequencies OR AESA radars that each emit multiple frequencies)



No long range missile ever locks onto the target at get-go!!! It'll be absolutely stupid to put in such a large and expensive seeker that will detect heat/radiation/visual-images from 100s of kilometers away!!! Astra, Brahmos (both ship attack or land attack) etc all get their terminal seekers activated in their terminal phases only!!

There is little that can be done to mask thermal radiation, an AESA radar is designed to blend in with the natural background radiation using 1000+ modules and a billion lines of coded algorithms to do so. That is why your comparison is like apples and oranges.

You aren't going to fit the sensors and computational power required to decipher an AESA signal in a missile, not with current technology anyways.

 

[Enquirer]

There is little that can be done to mask thermal radiation, an AESA radar is designed to blend in with the natural background radiation using 1000+ modules and a billion lines of coded algorithms to do so. That is why your comparison is like apples and oranges.

You aren't going to fit the sensors and computational power required to decipher an AESA signal in a missile, not with current technology anyways.

Mask a WHAT to blend a WHAT with a natural WHAT ??????????????

You've just created some comic book fiction there.

Talk to me when you want to get serious!!!

 

[Armand2REP]

Mask a WHAT to blend a WHAT with a natural WHAT ??????????????

You've just created some comic book fiction there.

Talk to me when you want to get serious!!!

You don't understand how difficult it is to detect an AESA radar which is why it is so revolutionary over its predecessors. The receive modules on the AESA scan the radiation around its environment and transmit on frequencies that will blend in with the background radiation which can be emitted from the atmosphere, other radars in the vicinity, or broadcasts. It is a very cluttered environment and AESA has the computational and modulation width to scatter that signal so as not to be easily detected. It takes very sophisticated sensors and algorithms to decipher those signals which is why it takes several Rafale or several satellites with ground stations to do it.

 

[Enquirer]

You don't understand how difficult it is to detect an AESA radar which is why it is so revolutionary over its predecessors. The receive modules on the AESA scan the radiation around its environment and transmit on frequencies that will blend in with the background radiation which can be emitted from the atmosphere, other radars in the vicinity, or broadcasts. It is a very cluttered environment and AESA has the computational and modulation width to scatter that signal so as not to be easily detected. It takes very sophisticated sensors and algorithms to decipher those signals which is why it takes several Rafale or several satellites with ground stations to do it.

You've either read something written by a whackjob or you've understood the stuff very differently!!

It's complete BULLSHIT that AESA radars scan their environment and then emit something in the same frequency - it's a F'ing radar not a chameleon or an octopus!

AESA fundamental advantage is that it's super hard to jam it. Crude way to Jam is to detect the radar's frequency and then emit same frequency signals back to the radar. But since AESA uses multiple frequencies and the 'hop' (or change pattern) of the frequencies follows a secret code, it is not possible to mimic it to jam it.

The working of AESA itself is super complex because the 'beam forming' involves very complex math - controlling signals of various frequencies to interfere constructively and destructively in a desired fashion! And not to mention decoding the signal received back from the target!

Jamming it is hard!

But detecting that there's radiation of several frequencies from a source is not that difficult.

To make it simple to understand - just because process by which a human being lives (with interactions amongst trillions of myriad cells ) is so complex, it doesn't mean detecting a human and snuffing the life out is that complex!!!!!

I am done with this useless argument!!!

 

[Armand2REP]

You've either read something written by a whackjob or you've understood the stuff very differently!!

It's complete BULLSHIT that AESA radars scan their environment and then emit something in the same frequency - it's a F'ing radar not a chameleon or an octopus!

AESA fundamental advantage is that it's super hard to jam it. Crude way to Jam is to detect the radar's frequency and then emit same frequency signals back to the radar. But since AESA uses multiple frequencies and the 'hop' (or change pattern) of the frequencies follows a secret code, it is not possible to mimic it to jam it.

The working of AESA itself is super complex because the 'beam forming' involves very complex math - controlling signals of various frequencies to interfere constructively and destructively in a desired fashion! And not to mention decoding the signal received back from the target!

Jamming it is hard!

But detecting that there's radiation of several frequencies from a source is not that difficult.

To make it simple to understand - just because process by which a human being lives (with interactions amongst trillions of myriad cells ) is so complex, it doesn't mean detecting a human and snuffing the life out is that complex!!!!!

I am done with this useless argument!!!

Of course they would not emit something on the same frequency as that would block their signal returns. That is why they sniff the trons from the environment and choose signals that will not create interference for the returns. It is hard to jam for the same reason it is hard to detect in the first place.

You are talking as if all 1000+ T/R modules are on max power beaming on one target. That is not how they operate as that would make them as vulnerable as the legacy mechanically steered radar used by China. They are scanning at a million times a minute in millisecond bursts overlapping at different frequencies and different power outputs. There is nothing uniform about it that a missile can lock on to. The radiation emitted by it is dispersed in such a way that it would be near impossible to distinguish it from a solar flare or some other natural radiation based phenomena unless you are right on top of it. If you are already close enough to detect its radiated emissions you are already dead.

 

[Enquirer]

Of course they would not emit something on the same frequency as that would block their signal returns. That is why they sniff the trons from the environment and choose signals that will not create interference for the returns. It is hard to jam for the same reason it is hard to detect in the first place.

You are talking as if all 1000+ T/R modules are on max power beaming on one target. That is not how they operate as that would make them as vulnerable as the legacy mechanically steered radar used by China. They are scanning at a million times a minute in millisecond bursts overlapping at different frequencies and different power outputs. There is nothing uniform about it that a missile can lock on to. The radiation emitted by it is dispersed in such a way that it would be near impossible to distinguish it from a solar flare or some other natural radiation based phenomena unless you are right on top of it. If you are already close enough to detect its radiated emissions you are already dead.

Somehow you've abandoned common sense!!
To decipher an AESA signal would be impossible due to all the complexities involved, but to find the source direction of radiation is not difficult.

Let me try to explain this using a very simple analogy!!!

Say you have one hot rod at 10 feet away - let's say it's at 1000 deg TEMPERATURE!
You feel a certain HEAT from the hot rod!!

Now let's say there are 10 rods at much lower TEMPERATURE, and each rod is at DIFFERENT TEMPERATURE (say 175,150, 175, 180 etc etc). Since you're just interested in the HEAT (or warmth), cumulatively you'll feel the same amount of HEAT!!!

Similarly, the passive WIDE-BAND seeker doesn't care about individual radiation frequencies or individual amplitudes of the frequency-variant signals but cumulative ENERGY coming from a particular direction.

 

[vampyrbladez]

Somehow you've abandoned common sense!!
To decipher an AESA signal would be impossible due to all the complexities involved, but to find the source direction of radiation is not difficult.

Let me try to explain this using a very simple analogy!!!

Say you have one hot rod at 10 feet away - let's say it's at 1000 deg TEMPERATURE!
You feel a certain HEAT from the hot rod!!

Now let's say there are 10 rods at much lower TEMPERATURE, and each rod is at DIFFERENT TEMPERATURE (say 175,150, 175, 180 etc etc). Since you're just interested in the HEAT (or warmth), cumulatively you'll feel the same amount of HEAT!!!

Similarly, the passive WIDE-BAND seeker doesn't care about individual radiation frequencies or individual amplitudes of the frequency-variant signals but cumulative ENERGY coming from a particular direction.

L band radar resolution is not very good, in effect you need multiple radars to triangulate a vector on the target and then close in with X Band, S band and IR based systems!

 

[Armand2REP]

Somehow you've abandoned common sense!!
To decipher an AESA signal would be impossible due to all the complexities involved, but to find the source direction of radiation is not difficult.

Let me try to explain this using a very simple analogy!!!

Say you have one hot rod at 10 feet away - let's say it's at 1000 deg TEMPERATURE!
You feel a certain HEAT from the hot rod!!

Now let's say there are 10 rods at much lower TEMPERATURE, and each rod is at DIFFERENT TEMPERATURE (say 175,150, 175, 180 etc etc). Since you're just interested in the HEAT (or warmth), cumulatively you'll feel the same amount of HEAT!!!

Similarly, the passive WIDE-BAND seeker doesn't care about individual radiation frequencies or individual amplitudes of the frequency-variant signals but cumulative ENERGY coming from a particular direction.

The field of view for a planar AESA array is 120 degrees, if you can lock down the frequency jumps and scan bursts that are pointing right at you, which will be short and low powered, then you may be able to get a direction it is coming from. It does not give you range or altitude which is why you need triangulation like I was describing before. Let us say you get a millisecond blip of what is possibly an AESA radar on your scope, will you blindly launch your missile not knowing its range or altitude and hope that it can find it? No, this is not how things are done in the real world. You will be getting thousands of returns that are just background radiation.

Your wide-band seeker theory doesn't work with AESA, the power that is pointing directly at you is so short and minuscule over range you won't even know what it is unless you have already analysed and deciphered its algorithms which is what Spectra collects and adds to its threat library.

You talk about cumulative energy, the whole point of AESA is that it doesn't accumulate enough for you to detect it.

 

[Enquirer]

The field of view for a planar AESA array is 120 degrees, if you can lock down the frequency jumps and scan bursts that are pointing right at you, which will be short and low powered, then you may be able to get a direction it is coming from. It does not give you range or altitude which is why you need triangulation like I was describing before. Let us say you get a millisecond blip of what is possibly an AESA radar on your scope, will you blindly launch your missile not knowing its range or altitude and hope that it can find it? No, this is not how things are done in the real world. You will be getting thousands of returns that are just background radiation.

Your wide-band seeker theory doesn't work with AESA, the power that is pointing directly at you is so short and minuscule over range you won't even know what it is unless you have already analysed and deciphered its algorithms which is what Spectra collects and adds to its threat library.

You talk about cumulative energy, the whole point of AESA is that it doesn't accumulate enough for you to detect it.

Dude! You need to take some basic lessons in physics before you argue!!

I understand that a forum handle keeps you anonymous, but you're still embarrassing yourself big time.

I think you're in love with you ignorance. I don't think I should separate you two.