India's shame, Chinese living in India were brutally treated in 1962!

[Ray]

Rhetorics like 'illegal occupation' or 'invasion' aside, China didn't intend to stay in the captured S. Tibet (or so called Arunachal) from the very beginning of retaliation according to interviews of veterans in the Sino-Ind war, and declassified files.

Other than 'logistics' China at that time was already engaged in two-front confrontations
* blockade and embargo by the West
* schism with the USSR (in fact Khrushev's taking side with India like the US, was one of many reasons for China to break away from Eastern Bloc in 1960's)

Therefore China didn't want to be absorbed on an additional front i.e. southward with India. Zhou very frankly wrote Nehru about this fact but Nehru's aim was possibly to push forward and physically control as much as possible so that India might be in a favourable position in later border talks. The target of the war for China was to 'stablize' along the previous actual control line. Pull-back from recovered lands was in line with this strategy (for so-called 20-years of peace).

Of course GoI and Indians may continue to propagate Aksai Chin... Arunachal ... for self consumption, with thin justification such as lines penned by Brit Raj.

Back to reality just let it be until someday a better solution arises. Before that, it's better for China and India to stay 'apart'

Rhetoric like 'illegal occupation', 'capitalist roader', 'running dogs', 'teaching a lesson', 我这里准备了一百口棺材，九十九口留给贪官，一口留给自己！" (I've prepared 100 coffins. 99 for corrupt officials and one for myself.), said by Zhu Rongji, Premier 1998–2003, "你们啊！You are all too young, too simple, sometimes naive! 係唔係啊？" (A mixture of Mandarin, English and Cantonese, in that order, meaning "You... You are all too young, too simple, sometimes naive! Isn't that right?") Said by Jiang Zemin, President 1993–2003, in response to a Hong Kong reporter , "不管白猫黑猫，逮住老鼠就是好猫。" (No matter if it is a white cat or a black cat; as long as it can catch mice, it is a good cat.) Said by Deng Xiaoping, in reference to economic liberalization, are all learnt from the wise men of China. It is the staple of the Chinese since they never speak with a straight tongue for obvious reasons, maybe to leave leeway to backflip at a later date to suit the convenience.

As I explained earlier, the Chinese used an adverse situation, in the usual Machiavellian manner, to swing its way. Declassified files of which country? And who are the veterans of the Sino Indian conflict who have opined? If the Chinese were so peace loving, then why did they not quit Aksai Chin having taught India a 'lesson'? What is so special about Aksai Chin and not Arunachal as far as the Chinese claim? If indeed, they don't have any claim to Arunachal, then why the song and a dance these days over Arunachal?

What US and West embargo? It is China which did not want to open up its trade with the world. If indeed there was an embargo, would it not also affect the operations in Aksai Chin? If USSR was supporting India, then how come they did not send any military matériel? How is that the US sent arms and ammunition when they were arch enemy of the USSR?

The CCP rhetoric may have convinced the Chinese to believe that 'The target of the war for China was to 'stablize' along the previous actual control line. Pull-back from recovered lands was in line with this strategy (for so-called 20-years of peace)' . This is another humbug and typically of the Chinese rhetoric, loaded with mealy mouthed pious platitudes!! It is pathetic nonsense about all the cl-aptrap about 20 years of peace. 20 years peace for who?

It is not only that GoI who are convinced that Arunachal is Indian Territory. The Arunachalis also believe the same. They want to be Arunachalis (Adi | Apatani | Bugun | Galo | Hrusso | Jingpho | Khamba | Koro | Memba |Meyor | Mishmi (including Idu, Taroan and Kaman) | Monpa | Nyishi (including Bangru and Puroik) | Sajolang | Sartang | Sherdukpen | Tagin | Tai Khamti (including Khamyang) | Yobin | Tangshang (including Muklom, Lonchang, Tutsa,Tikhak, Hawoi, Longri, Mungrey, Mushaung, Lungphi, Joglai, Ngaimong, Ponthai, Khalak, Lungkhai, Halley, Chellim, Shechu, Shiangwal, Rera, Shiangtee, Dohe, Moitai, Hatseng, Gajee, Gaja, Kochong, Lowchang, Laki, Gallon, Chamchang, ringkhu, Shohra, Bowngtai, Ronrang of Changlang District and Nocte, Wanchoo and Tutsa of Tirap District) and NOT Hans.

All people and tribal have seen how Chinese Hanise the indigenous population and wipe out their culture, language, religion and history.

They prefer India since it allows and preserve the beauty of individuality and the holity of all peoples who make up the Republic of India.

We revel in Unity in Diversity!

 

[dove]

So what is this new found interest China has in Tawang/AP ? Do you think they are just being their normal 'fight with all neighbours to show who is the boss' selves or does China believe it can get AP by force and keep it - even though the difference in military force is much less today than then ?

That's what confused me. Why start crying now for something they gave up once, that too under a more aggressive murderous leader who did not care at all about their own losses. China today has a lot more to lose.

 

[dove]

Chairman Mao said that 1962 was intended to earn a 20-year peace. In that sense it was successful. Who wanted to grab NE of India that would have gone beyond the strategic aim and drawn China into a complication?

So why start whining on AP/Tawang now ? Does CCP/PLA think Mao was a fool to withdraw ?

when I read Indian talk abt 'human rights', I feel kinda weird.

Its called a Conscience Prick. For people living in open societies this is normally felt as intense outrage which is then expressed as loud shouting on TV, protest marches, long news paper articles etc and often some solution to the problem that caused the outrage. In places like China where you have been trained from childhood to suppress such feelings, mention of words like human rights may feel weird and uncomfortable.

The only medicine is prolonged exposure to a society with freedom of expression and civil rights for the individual.

 

[amoy]

u may call my points nonsense or Machiavellian. that's fine - we're on different sides of the border. if there had been a consensus why 'border disputes'? what negotiations?

'20 years of peace' means after that war no more serious conflicts of that scale and both stablize along the line without further 'go-forward'. veterans of PLA were interviewed in a history review program on TV.

it's natural our readings of the past are different. an independent India only came into being in 1947(?) most of the border areas were probably even untapped or not officially demarcated. each side claims theirs, some with a valid supporting, some possibly based on 'actual control', or some left as 'vacuum' or 'buffer' zone due to rough conditions.

those tribes prefer to be in India - good
u are proud of Indian diversity - appreciated and equally diverse here.
Indian liberty, and freedom and civil rights - ya, salute

when I read Indian talk abt 'human rights', I feel kinda weird - with a straight tongue I say India does poorly in 'human rights' record - back to the theme of this thread, plus your 'hunger index' and ...

Let me try to understand Indian mindset.

 

[dove]

ohimalaya - Boss, please answer my question about why China is making noises about Arunachal Pradesh now, if Mao had decided to leave NE alone. That was a specific question, I did not say machiavellian or such. A simple straight forward question.

As far as human rights go, its difficult to take it seriously when Chinese say anything about Human Rights. India has many social problems caused by rich v/s poor, powerful v/s weak etc. But the law of the land is very clear in ensuring a very high standard of civil liberty and freedom of speech to Indian citizens. In China, the LAW is the main culprit in denying freedom to its citizens and oppression is not seen as a wrong but rightful action needed to progress.


There is a BIG difference between failure of the state to maintain law and order and deliver justice with 100% efficiency. It can be corrected and in many cases that come to public notice, there is a genuine effort to correct. In China, state is the official sponsor of oppression of human rights as its main policy.

Hence my disbelief at the genuineness of your 'weird' feelings about India's human rights record.

But, my main question is really about why China has started making trouble on AP now. Please give an opinion.

 

[amoy]

1) Logistics - recapturing S. Tibet was one thing. But to maintain a presence was another as Ray points out
2) Avoid being absorbed in a long term confrontation against India
3) Stablize the border along the 'traditional' line

the pull-back was not a recognition of Indian occupation but in line with clear aims and a good calculus at the onset of the war IMO. of course it also has left a unresolved border dispute.

+++ +++++++++
I feel weird because Indians are good at talking about liberty, freedom or civil rights in their ABSTRACT sense of a neighbor (read China). But when it comes to Indian's house affairs Indians are weak to MATERIALIZE or even VISUALIZE those lofty goals in India herself.

Tell me, what human rights for those Chinese (from a hostile country) brutally treated?

Explain to me what civil rights or freedom for %% of Indian in 'hunger' (in reference to India's poor ranking in HUNGER INDEX)? isn't freedom from hunger among many other BASIC freedoms? What are Naxalite fighting for?

Unity in Diversity? then what is ULFA for?

While u folks are pinpointing others are u ashamed that India can't fix your own business by living up to the standards u set for others?

 

[neo29]

During Partition, Sikh riots, Mumbai 1992 riots, Gujrat riots, Anti North India stand in Maharashtra and many more that i may have skipped out, there have been innocent victims of such a carnage. Such things are inevitable during a turn of events and government can not do much about it.

Its highly likely that there weren't much Chinese staying in India during that time.

Mr Nimo must understand the worse things that China has done to Tibetans and Democratic groups in his country rather than raising an absolute rubbish topic.

 

[dove]

OK. So China at that time felt it was too weak militarily to keep Tawang, but thinks it can capture it now by force when the military gap with China is much less ? Does'nt seem very realistic.

As far as human rights go, its painful watching Chinese try to point fingers at everyone else. Same as Pakistanis claiming they are victims of terrorism. Wonder who learned from who!!! What perfect match.

 

[Virendra]

Tell me, what human rights for those Chinese (from a hostile country) brutally treated?

Please present facts. Your assertions are not sufficient or verifiable for anyone here to revert.

Explain to me what civil rights or freedom for %% of Indian in 'hunger' (in reference to India's poor ranking in HUNGER INDEX)? isn't freedom from hunger among many other BASIC freedoms? What are Naxalite fighting for?
Unity in Diversity? then what is ULFA for?

Every society has its share of problems and with Indian DNA's diversity; problems arise off difference in opinions, demographics and religion.
in 1947 we chose to be a mixed house with secular values of society & leadership. We have had muslims as our President, Election commissioner; Sikhs as our Prime minister and Army Chief. So don't worry about the Indian house, it is a happening place.
Our people fight with each other because :
a) They are free enough to do so, if you understand what I mean here.
b) It happens everywhere with every society (in different ways) and no human inhabited corner of this planet is perfect.
By the way ULFA has been partially neutralised. Testimony to the fact that in Indian democracy you don't have to shoot if unhappy with you rulers; you can always vote them out of the government An everage Indian of 21st century has lesser communal tendencies. They stand with those who promise and deliver on development, modernisation and infrastructure.
On naxals, it is important to segregate Naxal problem and Naxal's problems.
Naxal problem is ill-founded as it stands on violence and blood of innocent lives.
Naxal's problems, the ones they claim to fight for are valid and the governments (or should I say politicians) have failed to address them. What you see is a fallout of that.
It is a vicious circle where state and its agencies made mistakes while trying to resolve and this in-turn infuriated the problem further.

While u folks are pinpointing others are u ashamed that India can't fix your own business by living up to the standards u set for others?

[/QUOTE]
Here's the first thing. This is a forum for serious discussions and knowledge sharing. Please do not use SMS lingo here, it goes against the decorum of this place.
Moving ahead, if one has to ashamed of not being able to fix their problems, world would have been finished off long ago Not that we don't see our problems or aren't working on them. Everyone is doing the same thing, even the Chinese and Americans. So yes, we shouldn't pin point at each other. Torch the one who started it all

Lets keep it a healthy debate and not bicker. Oh yes, where is your country's flag diplomat, give us an opportunity to see it !!

Regards,
Virendra

 

[desicanuk]

I am saddened by this.Lot of these people had lived in India for generations.They are as Indians as any other minorities of India.Not only does Indian government owe them an apology but some sort of compensation is in order.These people are not responsible for
PRC's hostility.The treatment meted out to the Indian Chinese reminds me of that meted out to Pakistani hindus during the 1965 and 1971 hostilities.Having said that I would now like to turn our sight to PRC.How does Beijing treat its ethnic minorities - Tibetans,Uighurs to name a couple.Genocidal is the only word I can think about.

 

[Rage]

OK. So China at that time felt it was too weak militarily to keep Tawang, but thinks it can capture it now by force when the military gap with China is much less ? Does'nt seem very realistic.

As far as human rights go, its painful watching Chinese try to point fingers at everyone else. Same as Pakistanis claiming they are victims of terrorism. Wonder who learned from who!!! What perfect match.

The military gap with China has widened, not shrunk. China in 1962 was in internal disarray, going through something called the Great Leap Forward where they attempted to bridge the industrial production gap with the West in the span of a few years (15 - 20 years). This was reflected in planning-policy decisions between 1958-61 which saw agricultural collectivization and rural industrialization in an adventitious, haphazard and desultory manner, which, ironically, resulted in grain shortages and an essential demand-supply imbalance in almost everything else. Rapant productionary inflation, spurred on by officials anxious to adapt to a recalcitrant Mao vision and avoid onerous penalties, led planners to believe there was everything in plenty, when there was actually much less, and the desire to show stock led to hoarding in godowns and warehouses, even while people starved to deaths outside. Estimates range from anywhere between 10.6 - 42 million, and usually ascribe a loss of about 26-35 mln. persons, which is a huge 1.2% of the Chinese labour force at that time, about 270 mln. persons.

Logistically, because of the atrophying of the economy, in terms of both men and materials, including industrial produce- steel for armaments, grain to feed the army, steel for construction and building- China could not afford a long war at that time, at least by choice, nor could it afford to engage in occupation. Complicating Sino-Soviet relations at that time also ensured that it had to keep adequate troops along their border as a first priority. In the midst of all this, we were still fixated with Pakistan and Kashmir and sorting out own issues, vis-à-vis political integration: particularly of princely states. All we had with respect to Tibet was a disastrous Forward Deployment policy that suffered from three fatal-flaws: it was vague, viscid and essentially vacuous: vague because its parameters were not defined; viscid because it was slow, both to get off with and in its political and logistical implementation; and vacuous because there was very little in the way of either political will or military or tactical superiority to back it up.

China's goal was essentially:- 1) to teach India a lesson and 2) to counter the Forward Deployment policy, which it perceived as a culminating potential military and political risk at its borders- which it achieved and justified via the Tibet-was-a-historical-part-of-China thesis. The technological quotient was somewhat at par, with the degradation in men and materials greater on the Chinese side. This decimation of men and materials- which some Chinese military & political higher up's realized but Mao refused to acknowledge: the under-developed, nascent supply chains in the Tibet plateau region; and the need to host men along the border with the Soviet Union- coupled with the fact that a deployment in the south plateau region was closer to more well-developed Indian infrastructure are the reasons why military historians have propounded the logistical capability argument to explain China's withdrawal from Tawang.

 

[niharjhatn]

OK. So China at that time felt it was too weak militarily to keep Tawang, but thinks it can capture it now by force when the military gap with China is much less ? Does'nt seem very realistic.

As far as human rights go, its painful watching Chinese try to point fingers at everyone else. Same as Pakistanis claiming they are victims of terrorism. Wonder who learned from who!!! What perfect match.

It still does't make it right. Simply because they don't give a s*** about human rights doesn't automatically justify us breaking them too!

Everybody has to break out of this mentality - if there is a problem in another nation, it doesn't mean you can treat people in the same way.

That said, in an effin war caused by the Chinese, I expect this type of shit to happen. Especially after India-Chini bhai bhai and all that crap. Doesn't make it right though!

Hopefully something can be done to reconnect these unfortunate people - requiring cooperation between both GoI and CCP.

 

[Falcon]

anyway in China's major cities there're Indians visible on streets (can't tell apart Sri Lanka or Bengladesh possibly), needless to mention 20K (or 60k?) of South Asian communities in HK .

even in the inner-most city like Chengdu I had dined at an Indian run restaurant called 'Tandoori' (the food was not to my taste frankly. that's one of reasons I think Indians and Chinese are far far away despite geo closeness). And many 'world-class' hotels like to have Indian (Sikh?) concierges as a 'reminiscence' of colonial times.

Chairman Mao said that 1962 was intended to earn a 20-year peace. In that sense it was successful. Who wanted to grab NE of India that would have gone beyond the strategic aim and drawn China into a complication?

when I read Indian talk abt 'human rights', I feel kinda weird.

What do you think about mao zedong's genocide story. You must be proud of it coz it brought economic development for your country.. right?

 

[Naren1987]

I'm not sure Americans are proud of what they did with their Japanese minority, these people went on to wing more Purple hearts than the Saxon Americans.
Read about the 'Purple heart Regiment' and 'Go for Broke', pick a better example.

 

[SPIEZ]

ASAIF Chinese ARE STILL BRUTALLY TREATED AND EVEN WORSE IN PRC, than in India.PERIOD

 

[niceguy2011]

ASAIF Chinese ARE STILL BRUTALLY TREATED AND EVEN WORSE IN PRC, than in India.PERIOD

It is in ur dream or u r brain washed.LOL
Otherwise , u will see Lots of chinese immigrate to India.LOL

 

[Known_Unknown]

^^They do. In the thousands. They are called Tibetans.

Nangpa La shooting incident - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[niceguy2011]

Dead .......is the good.......LOL

 

[Ray]

Dead .......is the good.......LOL

A great mentality indeed!

Cruelty apparently is your masochist pleasure!

The Uighurs are coming! The Uighurs are coming!

 

[SPIEZ]

Dead .......is the good.......LOL

Now we see clearly how well the Chinese are treated 1