India's Future Main Battle Tank, NGMBT

[p2prada]

What's the status of this program?? any updates or any progress in work ??

The design phase for the engine may have ended or in the process of ending,along with the transmission. Once that is done they may start design phase of the tank, as is the norm. Hopefully we will see a prototype in a few years.

There was a leak in the media about the engine, so the Army has put a gag order on all departments related to the FMBT. The only news we have had so far is that the project is running as planned from the various interviews from DRDO.

The tank itself will be developed in stages. Like stage 1 tanks may come with hydro-pneumatic suspensions like on Arjun and will be upgraded to active suspensions later on. It is to have a 120mm smoothbore gun, so there will be more import options for shells, especially from Israel.

Lots of interesting stuff, like a new generation APS, but very little news. It is not out of the ordinary for us to know very little in the beginning. Once the tank is ready for production we will know more. That may be in 2020.

 

[p2prada]

What's the status of this program?? any updates or any progress in work ??

The only other known FMBT program elsewhere is the ongoing Armata UCP. It is to undergo tests in 2013 and production in 2016.

It would be convenient to follow the Armata project to get some clues about the FMBT. They are planning a manned tank and an unmanned tank with similar specs. So, an unmanned FMBT may be an interesting proposition.

 

[p2prada]

Too much complication. Future tank should look like this:

With RCS reduction. :thumb:

 

[arnabmit]

So, Avinash Chander says that DRDO is working on a 2 man crew FMBT.

Features:
> 2 man cockpit of fighter aircraft to be ported into the tank for situation awareness and weapon management system.
> Glass/digital cockpit for driver and commander stations
> Fully automated turret
> Much smaller dimensions (I guess similar to the Sherman/T55 dimensions)
> Much lower weight (I guess in the 40 ton class) due to reduced size
> Much higher armor protection due to reduced size
> Powered by 1500hp diesel engine and transmission currently being developed under a National Mission

@Kunal Biswas @Twinblade @p2prada @ersakthivel

 

[ersakthivel]

But where is the GSQR? Is it a top secret project , so that even the gsrq remains secret?

 

[arnabmit]

Proactive proposal from DRDO. No GSQR.

DRDO recently set up a forum which will proactively research technologies and produce proof-of-concept prototypes independent of any GSQR.

But where is the GSQR? Is it a top secret project , so that even the gsrq remains secret?

 

[p2prada]

So, Avinash Chander says that DRDO is working on a 2 man crew FMBT.

Features:
> 2 man cockpit of fighter aircraft to be ported into the tank for situation awareness and weapon management system.
> Glass/digital cockpit for driver and commander stations
> Fully automated turret
> Much smaller dimensions (I guess similar to the Sherman/T55 dimensions)
> Much lower weight (I guess in the 40 ton class) due to reduced size
> Much higher armor protection due to reduced size
> Powered by 1500hp diesel engine and transmission currently being developed under a National Mission

@Kunal Biswas @Twinblade @p2prada @ersakthivel

Where did you get it from?

I don't know how this fighter cockpit thing works out. Is he talking about a tandem seating arrangement? I am pretty sure you still need 3 crew members, one to find targets and keep an eye out while the other takes out designated targets, apart from the driver. But whatever works for them...

A digital, glass cockpit for the crew is an obvious requirement. None of that electro-mechanical crap.

Smaller crew means a smaller tank and also lower weight in the 40 tons class. It could be lighter than a T-90 in that respect.

I hope they have planned a backup engine if the CVRDE 1800 HP fails.

Whatever the case, they have time to start the project. If they get permission to begin next year, they can start the design phase by early 2016, finish a prototype by 2020-21 and have it ready for induction well before 2025. It should normally take less than 10 years, but it requires the army to be properly involved from the earliest stages. By then the last batches of the T-90s will require upgrades along with the first batch of 600 which will require some amount of rebuilds and the upgraded T-72 will be ready to be phased out and replaced by the FMBT.

The next project, a FMBT Mk2, can focus on making a completely unmanned tank networked to a crew of 5 sitting in a command center in the battlefield, and a larger group somewhere near the Corps Headquarters. MLUs could include a railgun.

The Armata project is going to be induction-ready in one or two years, so there will be lessons from that project to be learned.

 

[Damian]

The next project, a FMBT Mk2, can focus on making a completely unmanned tank networked to a crew of 5 sitting in a command center in the battlefield, and a larger group somewhere near the Corps Headquarters. MLUs could include a railgun.

I would avoid unmanned system, me and many more people have very low faith in them as trully combat effective, especially on land. Drones does not feel such thing as loyalty, patriotism, duty, they are merely expandable machines that can be controlled by everyone. In this sense it is easy to hack them (drones need open communication channels to be controlled, such channels can be hacked or jammed), hey, these things can even broke down, or worse, malfunction, I heard about incident in US where small armed drone was tested to find and track targets on it's own, but there was bug in a software and it started to track his friendlies, as far as I know everyone panicked and turn that thing off.

This is why US Army and USMC for example, does not want armed drones, they believe that if they were purchase drones, these will be purely logistic machines or conversion kits to allow unmanned control on trucks, so more real soldiers can be put on frontline duty.

So in the end I would avoid all that drone hype. Robotics enthusiasts thend to completely underestimate danger of robotization for their own side, not only potential enemy.

 

[Apollyon]

Where did you get it from?

This (?)

 

[p2prada]

I would avoid unmanned system, me and many more people have very low faith in them as trully combat effective, especially on land. Drones does not feel such thing as loyalty, patriotism, duty, they are merely expandable machines that can be controlled by everyone. In this sense it is easy to hack them (drones need open communication channels to be controlled, such channels can be hacked or jammed), hey, these things can even broke down, or worse, malfunction, I heard about incident in US where small armed drone was tested to find and track targets on it's own, but there was bug in a software and it started to track his friendlies, as far as I know everyone panicked and turn that thing off.

This is why US Army and USMC for example, does not want armed drones, they believe that if they were purchase drones, these will be purely logistic machines or conversion kits to allow unmanned control on trucks, so more real soldiers can be put on frontline duty.

So in the end I would avoid all that drone hype. Robotics enthusiasts thend to completely underestimate danger of robotization for their own side, not only potential enemy.

Drones should become reliable and eventually standardized in one or two decades. When I say FMBT Mk2, you can only imagine how long it will take. It could be 15 years from now for the project to start, let alone be fielded. So, it could happen in the 2030-40 period. It's a long time in the future.

Risk aversion will be part of the objective. That will start with correctly identifying air based assets which is easier. With radar and IR system on tanks, identification issues should be taken care of in the future.

We already have programs for unmanned systems. One such system is an remotely controlled BMP-2 meant to go into NBC contaminated regions.

 

[arnabmit]

Yes, this is the source.

@p2prada

This (?)

 

[Damian]

Drones should become reliable and eventually standardized in one or two decades. When I say FMBT Mk2, you can only imagine how long it will take. It could be 15 years from now for the project to start, let alone be fielded. So, it could happen in the 2030-40 period. It's a long time in the future.

Risk aversion will be part of the objective. That will start with correctly identifying air based assets which is easier. With radar and IR system on tanks, identification issues should be taken care of in the future.

We already have programs for unmanned systems. One such system is an remotely controlled BMP-2 meant to go into NBC contaminated regions.

Well, robots are usefull, but IMHO we should not go further than engineer support drones and logistic drones. Armed drones are something that should be banned worldwide.

 

[Shaitan]

This (?)

Anyone one want tell us the number where it starts about FMBT?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

The Army has no interest in FMBT as of now, There is no GSQR prepared by Army ..

Army is rather willing to put money in Arjuns ( Link provided in last page )

 

[Apollyon]

Anyone one want tell us the number where it starts about FMBT?

Sorry Dude. That's a Secret.

 

[p2prada]

Well, robots are usefull, but IMHO we should not go further than engineer support drones and logistic drones. Armed drones are something that should be banned worldwide.

Come on, that's unrealistic. Banning armed robots won't happen. And even if it did India won't be a party to such a treaty. Except chemical weapons, which were banned for the right reasons, India is not a party to any arms-ban treaty in the world anyway, like nuclear weapons, landmines and cluster weapons.

Armed drones is a major critical project for DRDO, including other types of armed vehicles. While it is still in its infancy, armed drones for anti-terrorist operations has already been happening.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...ject-for-Indian-Army/articleshow/11173443.cms

Key DRDO laboratories, like R&DE (Engineers), Pune, have diversified from conventional tasks of making bridges, mine-laying and mine-clearance equipment to the more advanced systems involving robotics and artificial intelligence applications. A small group of robotics, set up in 2001-02 for designing UGVs, has since evolved into a full-fledged robotics development laboratory 'Saksham', which has been spearheading the DRDO's UGV initiative.

According to Sundaresh, surveys relating to the global market for UGVs have revealed that governments of various countries have committed mind-boggling amounts for acquisition and deployment of UGVs. "There is immense potential and opportunity for scaling up this technology to the extent of developing unmanned battle tanks," he said.

Apart from 'Netra', the R&DE (Engineers) is developing a gun-mounted robot, which can be deployed in anti-terrorist situations. "The robot will be equipped with a light machine gun and a grenade launcher," he said and added that the project is in design stage and will take two years to realise.

There is more in the article.

Once we publicly know where the FINSAS program is headed we will know the feasibility of adding unmanned elements into the system, including unmanned tanks.

 

[pankaj nema]

@p2prada
@Kunal Biswas Sir

I believe Indian Army will get some 500 Arjuns and later jump to the next Gen
Russian Armata by 2020 and if Russia and DRDO can collaborate
for FMBT then it is even better

This will be a quid pro quo with DRDO .
DRDO has been demanding a 500 tank order for Arjun

But DRDO alone going for FMBT is crazy ; again the Arjun saga should not be repeated

 

[p2prada]

@p2prada
@Kunal Biswas Sir

I believe Indian Army will get some 500 Arjuns and later jump to the next Gen
Russian Armata by 2020 and if Russia and DRDO can collaborate
for FMBT then it is even better

This will be a quid pro quo with DRDO .
DRDO has been demanding a 500 tank order for Arjun

But DRDO alone going for FMBT is crazy ; again the Arjun saga should not be repeated

The army won't induct more than 200 Arjun Mk2s. The total will be around 350. DRDO wanted a 500 tank order for Mk1, not Mk2. For Mk2, just 500 more tanks won't help it break even. The unit cost is above 40 Crores or above $8 Million per unit and R&D costs are equally high due to the large amount of electronics procured from Israel.

Russian Armata is a not required as long as DRDO delivers on the FMBT.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Army will have 500 Arjuns which are mixed of MK-1/2/3, All three variants will share commonality of spares and hardware ..

The FMBT as of now is DRDO`s tech demostration and there is no Army involvement, Tech demonstration is important as its show DRDO capability to its customer ..

Here are few points from Army`s own view ..

Three important realizations drive the DGMF's new proposal.

1. Firstly, there is growing acceptance of the Arjun, after its strong performance in field trials.

2. Secondly, the need for an industrial "eco-structure" for providing spares and maintenance backup for the Arjuns that are already operating. This would come up only if a viable number of tanks are in service.

3. Finally, the DGMF believes that there are no recent breakthrough technologies in armoured vehicle design, which eliminates the logic for building an entirely new tank.

Source : Broadsword: Army proposes to scrap Future Main Battle Tank: instead build successive models of the Arjun

DGMF is more into Arjun`s series ..

@Kunal Biswas Sir

I believe Indian Army will get some 500 Arjuns and later jump to the next Gen
Russian Armata by 2020 and if Russia and DRDO can collaborate
for FMBT then it is even better

This will be a quid pro quo with DRDO .
DRDO has been demanding a 500 tank order for Arjun

But DRDO alone going for FMBT is crazy ; again the Arjun saga should not be repeated

 

[Damian]

Come on, that's unrealistic. Banning armed robots won't happen. And even if it did India won't be a party to such a treaty. Except chemical weapons, which were banned for the right reasons, India is not a party to any arms-ban treaty in the world anyway, like nuclear weapons, landmines and cluster weapons.

Armed drones is a major critical project for DRDO, including other types of armed vehicles. While it is still in its infancy, armed drones for anti-terrorist operations has already been happening.

DRDO plans 500-cr unmanned vehicle project for Indian Army - The Times of India




There is more in the article.

Once we publicly know where the FINSAS program is headed we will know the feasibility of adding unmanned elements into the system, including unmanned tanks.

Well, call me just one of these guys that are against armed drones. I don't like idea that unmanned machine kill people, it allready created more problems than good.