India's Future Main Battle Tank, NGMBT

[Damian]

The main problem is to convince top army officers and politicians to spend more money for more... unconventional and probably more costly design solutions and that Army need such vehicle.

Look at NATO vs Soviet Union development race, in the end they came up with same or similiar design conclusions however SU collapsed and then NATO especially US that have highly advanced next generation MBT development program ended working on such vehicles because politicians and top officers were thinking that nobody needs such vehicles anymore... so in the end we ended with light tracked UCP's development programs that ended as complete failure and money waste when if late Cold War programs would be continued through 90's to early XXI century we probably allready would use 4th generation MBT's on dedicated hulls or on heavy tracked UCP's.

So this is problem of convience decision makers and also to biuld clear design barriers to know what we want and not to start designing a "gold plated christmass tree" that will be or cancelled money and time waste or if R&D phase will sucesfully end it will be so expensive that nobody will wish to buy it or production will end on very small numbers of vehicles.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

[h=3]FMBT Part I: Army dithers over futuristic tank, DRDO pursues engine[/h]By Ajai Shukla
CVRDE, Avadi, Chennai
Business Standard, 2nd Jan 11


India's Future Main Battle Tank (FMBT), the backbone of the army's strike power into the mid-21st century, languishes while the army continues an extended debate over its specifications.


A year ago, on 6th Dec 2010, Defence Minister AK Antony told the Lok Sabha that the army had formulated the FMBT's specifications and the Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO) was carrying out feasibility studies. Antony, it now emerges, misled parliament. MoD sources say the army remains undecided about the basic features of the FMBT, including whether it should have three crew members or four. Consequently the army has not finalised the FMBT's Preliminary Staff Qualitative Requirements (PSQR), essential for sanctioning the project and allocating funding.


The PSQR also allows engineers to begin designing the FMBT. It specifies the tank's capabilities and components, including its weight; dimensions; mobility; weaponry; armour protection; communications; and any special capabilities that are required, e.g. the ability to drive underwater; or operate on a nuclear battlefield.


But the DRDO has begun work, anxious to shield the FMBT from the delays that plagued the Arjun programme. The FMBT must roll out by 2020, when the army's oldest T-72 tanks, which entered service in 1979, complete their 32-year service lives. Business Standard was granted exclusive permission to visit the Combat Vehicles R&D Establishment (CVRDE), the DRDO facility outside Chennai where the Arjun Mark II is nearing completion; and the FMBT will be developed.


Dr P Sivakumar, CVRDE's livewire director, revealed that work has begun on crucial FMBT systems, even without a PSQR. Based on the army's weight limit of 50 tonnes for the FMBT, the DRDO has launched a "mission mode" project to develop an 1800 Horse Power indigenous engine. Sivakumar says that 1500 HP is sufficient for a 50-tonne tank, but the endemic danger of weight over-runs in a new tank makes a 300 HP margin prudent.


The project will co-opt domestic engineering companies like Kirloskar Oil Engines, Bharat Earth Movers Ltd (BEML), and the Mahindras; research institutions like IITs; and bodies like the Automotive Research Association of India (ARIA), Pune. An Indian "prime contractor" would assemble the FMBT engines from engine components supplied by a network of sub-contractors.


"India has never designed engines; engine technology has always been imported. But we will develop the FMBT engine as a national project. Our approach is not engine-specific; we are looking at developing the complete range of technologies needed for building engines. Not only design"¦ but also manufacturing, testing, evaluation," says Sivakumar.


This ambitious plan is cushioned with pragmatism. The DRDO has brought in international consultants to design the engine and build Indian manufacturing capability in engine-related fields. Sivakumar says that German companies MTU and Renk, which supply engines and transmissions for the Arjun tank, refused to provide consultancy, realising that building Indian capability would end their market here. DRDO is now evaluating consultancy proposals from Ricardo of Britain and AVL of Austria.


"Simultaneously, we have floated an Expression of Interest (EoI) to identify an Indian manufacturing partner. The consultant we select will work in a consortium with the DRDO; the army; and the Indian manufacturing partner, who will be associated with the programme from the design stage itself. We have allowed the consultants to visit manufacturing companies and report on their capability to build a modern engine," explains Sivakumar.


The CVRDE director says that the consultants will finalise the engine design within 12 months, and take 18 months more to build the first prototype. "Within 30 months, or three years maximum, the first engine would be ready for testing," he says.


"Both Ricardo and AVL have proposed that they design and build the first prototypes. But the Indian industry will work alongside the consultant. The first design is never perfect; so the consultant will make the changes needed in design, tolerances, or materials to refine the engine. Then, in the second phase, the Indian partner will produce the engine," says Sivakumar.


Even as CVRDE develops this technological capacity, it is looking further ahead at a hybrid engine for the FMBT after 2030. Sivakumar says that a tank remains static for at least 40% of the time in battle, during which time its engine idles. "This means that 40% of the time, you wastefully run a 1500 HP engine, guzzling diesel and giving away the tank's position, while you need very little power for running electricals like the radios and gun control equipment or for moving the tank slowly. So we are evolving a hybrid technology concept in which the tank will have two engines: a 500 HP engine for low power mode and another 1000 HP engine that kicks in when high power is required, e.g. for manoeuvring in battle," explains the CVRDE director.





(Tomorrow: Choosing FMBT technology: the desirable versus the achievable)


The Future Main Battle Tank (FMBT)


"¢ Army has not finalised FMBT specifications
"¢ Tank required by 2020, when T-72s start retiring
"¢ DRDO has begun work on 1500 HP engine
"¢ Ricardo, AVL are potential design consultants
"¢ Indian industry partner will manufacture engine
"¢ Planning ahead for tandem "hybrid" engine

 

[SpArK]

A year ago, on 6th Dec 2010, Defence Minister AK Antony told the Lok Sabha that the army had formulated the FMBT's specifications and the Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO) was carrying out feasibility studies. Antony, it now emerges, misled parliament. MoD sources say the army remains undecided about the basic features of the FMBT, including whether it should have three crew members or four. Consequently the army has not finalised the FMBT's Preliminary Staff Qualitative Requirements (PSQR), essential for sanctioning the project and allocating funding.

The " misled" part was taken as headline by rediff. Since its from F-35 shukla dunno how much credible is the news.

Antony MISLED Parliament on India's next-gen battle tank! - Rediff.com News

 

[p2prada]

It is difficult to mislead Parliament and expect the opposition to sit around in such a major project.

It is good that CVRDE is already working on the engine, regardless of whether the PSQR was handed over or not.

 

[Anonymouse]

Broadsword: FMBT Part II: India's future main battle tank now grapples with a weight issue

As the Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO) begins designing the Future Main Battle Tank (FMBT), the army is sending out typically mixed messages on the vital question of how big and heavy India wants its tanks. While insisting that the DRDO's 60-tonne Arjun tank weighs too much to move around the riverine terrain of Punjab and J&K, the army has demanded features in the next Arjun model (Arjun Mark II) that will raise its weight to 65 tonnes.



Planning for the FMBT --- the Gen-Next tank that will follow the Arjun Mark II by 2020 --- is even more contradictory. The army wants the FMBT to weigh just 50 tonnes while bettering all the Arjun's features.


Officials at the Combat Vehicles R&D Establishment (CVRDE), Avadi, who will develop the FMBT, say it is impossible to build the FMBT 15 tonnes lighter while also improving crew protection; fitting a more powerful gun that can slam projectiles through improved enemy tanks; and making the FMBT faster and more powerful.


The CVRDE director, P Sivakumar, told Business Standard during an exclusive briefing on the FMBT, that it would meet weight targets only if the army identified its inescapable needs rather than demanding every feature available. One example is crew protection. The FMBT will have a cutting-edge Active Protection System that detects incoming enemy projectiles (which travel faster than rifle bullets); and then fires a projectile to hit and degrade the incoming warhead. But the army also insists on the conventional armour plate that has traditionally protected tank crews.


"If you want a 50-tonne FMBT you must choose wisely. If your Active Protection System can reliably defeat enemy projectiles, why do you also want the heavy armour plating of passive systems? Whatever you use --- composites, lightweight materials, etc. --- the weight of the tank will rise. Similarly, how can you increase your tank gun's ability to penetrate enemy tanks without a weight increase?" asks Sivakumar.


Difficult choices like these are delaying the finalisation of the FMBT's Preliminary Staff Qualitative Requirements (PSQR), the document that will specify its capabilities and major systems. With nothing settled, the DRDO is readying for a heavier-than-planned FMBT. Business Standard reported yesterday that CVRDE is developing an 1800 Horse Power engine, rather than the 1500 HP needed for a 50-tonne FMBT.


While foreign consultancy will drive the engine design, CVRDE will play the central role in building a transmission system, which transfers engine power to the FMBT's tracks. Sivakumar, himself an accomplished transmission designer, says that the CVRDE's home-grown design will be vetted by a consultant, who will be chosen from three candidates: Ricardo; AVL; or US-based South West Research Institute.


"CVRDE has a tradition in transmission design. We built a 1500 HP transmission for the Arjun, which was not used because the engine design was changed. We have also built the "aircraft mounted accessory gearbox" that is standard fitment in the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft. It is 35 kg of magnesium alloy, spinning at 16,800 rpm. This gearbox has successfully completed some 3000 flights," says Sivakumar.


The FMBT will be armed with India's first smoothbore 120-millimetre tank gun. While the rest of the world has long used smoothbore guns --- which fire anti-tank missiles and high-explosive anti-tank (HEAT) rounds --- the DRDO alone has stuck with rifled guns. There is confidence that the changeover will be smooth: the DRDO developed a smoothbore gun for the T-90 tank after Russia illegally blocked gun technologies. The DRDO is also working with Israel Military Industries (IMI), which developed the smoothbore gun for the Merkava tank.


Cushioning the FMBT's ride will be one of the Arjun's unique successes, its hydro-pneumatic suspension unit (HSU), which smoothens the jerks from driving fast over uneven cross-country terrain. The Arjun's smooth ride allows its gun to accurately hit a suitcase two kilometres away while driving at 30 kmph. The initial FMBTs will have improved Arjun HSUs, while CVRDE proposes to develop an "active suspension" by 2030. This has sensors scrutinising the terrain just ahead of the tank and making anticipatory adjustments before the tank's tracks roll over that area.


"The future is active suspension. The FMBT will initially roll out with hydro-pneumatic suspensions but we are commencing R&D for active suspension. It takes some time to develop a reliable active suspension. No tank has managed it so far," says Sivakumar.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Features of the FMBT

• Weight: 50-tonnes
• Engine: 1800 Horse Power
• Transmission: CVRDE-developed
• Armour: Active Protection System (APS)
• Gun: 120 mm smooth bore
• Suspension: Hydro-pneumatic
• Active suspension after 2030

 

[Kunal Biswas]

There is nothing futuristic about it..

 

[Twinblade]

There is nothing futuristic about it..

Screw FMBT, they should do to Arjun what the Swiss did with their Leopard2A4 and arm it with a 140mm smoothbore gun and an auto loader.

I mean seriously, if you want decent levels of protection, decent amount of fire power, decent range, small size, less than 50 tons and 3 member crew, isn't T-90 already available ? Make a T-90 Mki with next-gen Kanchan, 1800hp engine, home made autoloader and a gun which can deliver the power of a Rheinmetall L-55 gun in a smaller package.

 

[Damian]

This Leopard 2 was only test bed, it ended in some museum. It is difficult to put 140mm or bigger gun in to currently used designs.

 

[Payeng]

Their should be some effort to make the Tank more compact in dimension, less area= less area to be covered by armour= reduction in weight.

Isn't it possible to mate both AA MG and Standard MG under a same hood and make that system work in a more automated manner like a CIWS with target seeking data form outside the tanks own camera and sensors connected through Network with recce UAVs, vehicles, troops etc? some thing like this.

even if alternate rounds not possible under the same barrel. Maybe under the same system (dual caliber arrangement). with target seeking capacity from more then the Tanks own cameras and sensor connected by network with other possible units, Maybe this way loads upon gunner/commander could be lessen for them to do other stuffs and maybe reduce one crew requirement.

Tank gurus is it possible to make a tank with standard operation by only 2 crew instead of 3 or 4?

 

[asianobserve]

This Leopard 2 was only test bed, it ended in some museum. It is difficult to put 140mm or bigger gun in to currently used designs.

Not to mention that 140mm ammos takes up more space than 120mm thus limiting further the storage capacity of tanks. This is most probably the reason why the Germans opted for a longer 120 mm gun (L55) rather than upgrading to a bigger and all-new 140mm gun. Hence with the L55 you get a more powerful gun but with the same diameter of ammos.

 

[Payeng]

Features of the FMBT

• Weight: 50-tonnes
• Engine: 1800 Horse Power
• Transmission: CVRDE-developed
• Armour: Active Protection System (APS)
• Gun: 120 mm smooth bore
• Suspension: Hydro-pneumatic
• Active suspension after 2030

South Korea already have an Active Suspension on Hydro-pneumatic system development program already going on for her K2 MBT
Seems like CVRDEs ability to offering the nation a FMBT depends more upon managements ability to convince foreign companies to sign MoUs and JVs/consultants then the sheer ability of her Scientists.

A more managerial challenge then a technical challenge.

 

[Austin]

There is nothing futuristic about it..

Exactly what is futuristic ? What is your expectations of FMBT ?

My expectation is if they can make the FMBT 90 % indigenous with what they have specified then its job well done.

 

[Payeng]

This is an interesting read from the wiki page on K2 Black Panther,.....

Two principal designs were considered during early development: One fitted with a manned turret, and another fitted with an unmanned turret. The latter was scrapped in favour of the former at the early design stage. It was also planned for the K2 to field Rheinmetall's experimental 140 mm smoothbore gun, though this had to be abandoned when Rheinmetall ceased development upon the rationale that its current weapon, the 120 mm / L55 would be more than adequate to counter prospective armored threats for the foreseeable future. The K2's gun was subsequently reconfigured to the L55, along with necessary modifications for ammunition capacity. The vehicle is capable of mounting the 140 mm gun with minimum modifications should the need arise.

India can certainly learn a thing or two from a study upon K2 development program, most of the things India is planning for her FMBT is being applied or under development on the K2 platform. They even had a unmanned turret option for consideration.

It seems like K2 is the tank India Army is talking about.

 

[Twinblade]

This Leopard 2 was only test bed, it ended in some museum. It is difficult to put 140mm or bigger gun in to currently used designs.

True, but hasn't Rheinmetall already developed a 140mm gun and autoloader prototype ?
Surely, addition of autoloader and a heavier gun combined with heavier ammo will guarantee a weight gain of 5-8 tons, but something on the lines of (Jordanian if I remember correctly?) Falcon turret with increased side protection can offset that by 3-5 tons. The penetration power of 120mm guns is not going up much without ridiculously lowering barrel life, and the armour isn't getting any lighter or compact. Between the two, a bigger gun, if successfully integrated into a derivative of current design is going to be a game changer. Such a system would also have the potential to be used as an artillery system.

 

[Damian]

Tank gurus is it possible to make a tank with standard operation by only 2 crew instead of 3 or 4?

Possible but not efficent enough, 3 crew members is minimum. Americans in XM1202 MCS developed for FCS program had to be crewed by 2 people like the rest vehicles based on MGV universal combat platform. However there were doubts if in such configuration vehicle will be efficent, it was advised to search a way to place a 3rd crew member.

True, but hasn't Rheinmetall already developed a 140mm gun and autoloader prototype ?

There were several prototypes and concepts.

Surely, addition of autoloader and a heavier gun combined with heavier ammo will guarantee a weight gain of 5-8 tons, but something on the lines of (Jordanian if I remember correctly?) Falcon turret with increased side protection can offset that by 3-5 tons.

Falcon turret and similiar designs are not suited to be armed with 140mm or bigger gun, ammunition is handled in very small bustle, with 120mm there is allready ~18-20 ronds, think how much less will be with bigger gun.

The penetration power of 120mm guns is not going up much without ridiculously lowering barrel life, and the armour isn't getting any lighter or compact. Between the two, a bigger gun, if successfully integrated into a derivative of current design is going to be a game changer. Such a system would also have the potential to be used as an artillery system.

Too much complication. Future tank should look like this:

As for K2 tank, it have weakly protected turret side armor, it is not well protected within safe manouvering angles.

 

[sayareakd]

cant we have two man crew in tank, commander/gunner into one and driver, with the latest tech like drive by wire and auto loader, isnt it possible to have such a tank. Then it would weight less with turret less design.

 

[Damian]

Think how much lower will be crew situational awareness, and how tank commander will be overloaded with his duties. 3 man crew is minimum as I said.

 

[Santu]

What's the status of this program?? any updates or any progress in work ??

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Its a dead horse, No updates, No GSQR is being finalized ..

Three important realizations drive the DGMF's new proposal.

1. Firstly, there is growing acceptance of the Arjun, after its strong performance in field trials.

2. Secondly, the need for an industrial "eco-structure" for providing spares and maintenance backup for the Arjuns that are already operating. This would come up only if a viable number of tanks are in service.

3. Finally, the DGMF believes that there are no recent breakthrough technologies in armoured vehicle design, which eliminates the logic for building an entirely new tank.

Source : Broadsword: Army proposes to scrap Future Main Battle Tank: instead build successive models of the Arjun

DGMF is more into Arjun`s series ..