India’s Covert Action Capabilities Stymied By CIA, MI6 Pressure

Bahamut

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A former spy must be a adviser to PMO on this matter as he know how it works .It time that our leadership takes importance in covert action .I remember reading a article about IB and RAW and its links with foreign service especial MI6 ( the book was open screts by MK Dhar,I am searching for it) in Forntline and he talked about how leadership did not trust the intelligent and use them only for political gains and allow foreign agents to operate freely while undermine their strength.
 

Compersion

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I didn't understand a word of what you said.


If the west wants India to cease covert actions against Pakistan, in simple terms it means that we are at war with western agencies.
why would we be announcing like the above to something that is critical and main appendage of a security agency. do you really believe it to be true ... are we giving a indicator to the others that they will be in approval when anything is done (a way of positive reinforcement i like to say). is the above being said to justify reaction because of the opponents crazy ways. why with such openness on a policy that is clear ... was it part of a negotiation ... what are the terms and what happen if another is in breach ?? because with the openness that is being declared it is being implied the other is making breach. and it is being said that the opponents deserve ...

i am only saying that there is more that needs to be read. i like to have a higher standard of such things that we do and not simple terms like it is being said. it is not because of being clueless but because of what we have done and do and will do.
 
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Nuvneet Kundu

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why would we be announcing like the above to something that is critical and main appendage of a security agency. do you really believe it to be true ... are we giving a indicator to the others that they will be in approval when anything is done (a way of positive reinforcement i like to say). is the above being said to justify reaction because of the opponents crazy ways. why with such openness on a policy that is clear ... was it part of a negotiation ... what are the terms and what happen if another is in breach ?? because with the openness that is being declared it is being implied the other is making breach. and it is being said that the opponents deserve ...

i am only saying that there is more that needs to be read. i like to have a higher standard of such things that we do and not simple terms like it is being said. it is not because of being clueless but because of what we have done and do and will do.
That's exactly what I'm saying. No amount of claims from anonymous RAW officials will convince me that the report is accurate. In India such controversial things needs to be said to sell books or to gain publicity. It's stupid to make a sweeping statement about foreign agencies having a control over Indian agencies. The very nature of covert actions is that no one knows how many people are working on our agenda. One RAW official doesn't know what others are doing. This is a stupid report written on some obscure 'news' site to gain pageviews.

The very fact that we exist as a nation and Kashmir and N.E is still a part of India indicates that our agencies are doing their work. The west has been trying to snatch Kashmir (and nukes) away from us. Had our agencies been subservient to theirs then we would have lost Kashmir (and our nukes) already. The fact that we rejected Typhoon fighter and F16 from MMRCA itself suggests that we are pursuing an independent policy.
 

Immanuel

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RAW and its way of working is not stymied in anyway, the only difference is RAW still has to account for its work. ISI/CIA/MI-5 enjoy a lot more freedom but they enjoy a lot more fuck ups too and their fuck ups are monumental. RAW's way of working is quite similar to that of the MOSSAD except that MOSSAD is governed by political leadership with balls. You see, conscription of every Israerli into the IDF brings much need national integrity, deeply roots in patriotism and sense of purpose for the citizen.

Israel is the only place in the world where you (an anoymous Israeli citizen) can get into a cab and say 'national emergency' to the taxi driver & he takes you where you need to be without any questions asked while driving like its the end of the world.

RAW is still one of the best Intel agencies in the World, they only lack some of the newest tech and decisive political backing. As for methods, they can make the average CIA, ISI spook look like a clown.
 

Nuvneet Kundu

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To all those who are saying that RAW lacks this and RAW lacks that, may I ask what objective parameters have you used to arrive at that conclusion? Has anyone of us seen what kind of devices RAW uses have we compared them with the devices that others use? if not then how can we claim that our devices are slightly poor quality.

Truth is that there is one thing that India does bad and that is propaganda. The western powers make sure that even the most basic of their achievements are made into Discovery, Nat Geo documentaries and peddled as hard facts. After watching this, Indians start thinking that we are lacking somewhere, because we don't know what our agencies are doing.

Also, RAW is not a monolith that governments inherit from previous governments. If a new PM has been elected and he has a particular world view that he wants to further, he is not going to go to RAW and beg for some officers to further his goals. He can simply hand pick new people, sanction funds covertly and set up a new team to accomplish whatever he wants. Modi certainly will never reveal his agenda to the old RAW officers who are Congress stooges. In that context, the old ones will keep feeling that nothing is happening while a lot is actually happening, it's just that they aren't a part of it.
 

sorcerer

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i guess i might understand haw you feel and i dont blame you at all ...my only hope is we differentiate between the real ones and the fakes .
Too hard..money is the biggest temptress... Funding for NGO's should be centralized and highly regulated.


exactly ! most interesting
USA is bankrolling the WoT with bases and assets in pakistan..so naturally a nation which is 1000s of miles away will have intel on pakistan which is nearer to India.
USA wanted to counter china with pakistan and they will do everything and anything to hold that position..meaning USA having corrupted the political and military system in pakistan has enough capacity for intel inside pakistan.


even worse than corruption is ( i hope i can now say WAS ) the absolute lack of strategic policy
I agree..but we dont know how many cases of terror attempts are thwarted by our agencies everyday...Lets assume that the agencies are doing a good job with such a pesky neighbor.


my take is that IF donald J gets to the oval office and replaced the taleban rep currently in there ... we ARE going to see a radical change in alignments ...i have little doubt about that

for a season ( like years ) th eusa is going to give up exotic and "refined " involvements with packland ....donald is the kind of guy who thinks straight and hits hard and if people like senator roarbacher also raise their voices we are going to see more direct alignments and less complications
With Donald J or Bush J or any 'J's they all will do is sit and joke. US has a longer longest term strategy for the globe. They can speak all they want and can prior to elections..but once they are in the oval office...they work with their strategic realties in mind which is governed by their sponsors like weapon industries..oil companies...agro business motivated by the Deep State.
They will do Zilch to make anything better.

Obama as we all know was the much celebrated POTUS when he took charge..He spoke of peace..and he even got a NOBEL.. They decided to pull out of Afghan when they had body counts more than their manufacturing capacity for body bags.
Nobel for Peace... :D
Peace in Syria.. Peace in .Egypt...Peace in Afghanistan...Peace in Europe as a result of screw up in Syria..(Geo Strategic Blunder vis a vis Greece)


the people of the usa from who the military are drafted will also want to see less overseas involvement other than immediate direct action and less loading assets and pampering packland but rather telling pack's generals what one usa senator once told a pack general that we will bomb you back to the stone age ....
They have been warning pakistan for loonnng...pakis know that and pakis know how much USA needs pakistan to leverage its position in Asia. As long as pak doings are not DIRECTLY causing any problem for USA..US wont mind what pak does at all.

Hurt the US pride and the people in USA will line up for Overseas involvements... We have seen it in the war in Iraq...twice..

i think we are gonna hear more of that kind of direct talk

depending o how the iowa polls and the rest of it goes , if donald is seen to be winning watch for signs of big time panic in packland

it will be the beginning of the end for their pampered status which they have been unduly enjoying for far too long ....so watch for signals of panic from there

Britain my want to advocate for the packs but i think donald wont give them time of day especially as the talebs in uk had raised a few hundred thousand signatures against him ....plus usa wants to bolster itself first before going around to bail out the brits
USA wont bail out brits or the Europe.. USA has installed the most wanted muslim migrant population in Europe. USA can use them as and when needed against future bad behavior of Europe.


only question that raises doubts for me is how long can donald gain the confidence of the military industrial complex and if something untoward happen to him
As long as his talks are different BUT his policies are aligned with the US military Industrial Complex giving them a good war sale...nothing untoward will happen to him.

i feel confident india can have great dialog with donald , we will need good usa -based communicators and diplomats and lobbyists to get the job done ....we cant send a robe clothed
saint to communicate with him , and i think even modi should not communicate directly too much

we will seriously need better communicators and usa based lobbyists who already know the system and have great contacts in the oval office and pentagon etc
IMO,Transparency is better served if we have Govt to Govt communication than lobbyists with their own agenda.
When we give them good bulky deals...they will listen to us and talk to us..we can even communicate to US in Hebrew and they will understand that.
When India is trying to stand neutral..independent. trying to achieve power positions alone... US will never "understand" India..
 
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This is why i said that USA has invested too much time and money in Pakistan too give it up so easily. Either China will be thrown out or Pakistan ripped apart


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

sorcerer

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This is why i said that USA has invested too much time and money in Pakistan too give it up so easily. Either China will be thrown out or Pakistan ripped apart
Yeahh...!!!
But this is a foreplay that will take sooooooooo long..each nation probing each others weakness to find the chance to hit the jugular.
Relative peace can be achieved with nations in the geography cooperating on mutual interests other than just trade and commerce. but extending cooperation for science, tech and education.
 

kr9

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This is why i said that USA has invested too much time and money in Pakistan too give it up so easily. Either China will be thrown out or Pakistan ripped apart


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
But that won't happen as long as we are playing into their hands. If US develops ties with India, they can overlook Pakistan as a counter to China.

If the west wants India to cease covert actions against Pakistan, in simple terms it means that we are at war with western agencies.
Their ultimate objective, always, has been to be the sole super-power & to dictate world politics. They already head NATO. The unknown variable to their equation is Asia. And they will do all they can to keep Asians fighting with each other.
Russia is also more Asia-friendly, thanks to their isolation from Europe by NATO.

Imagine if Russia, China, India, Japan, Korea & South East Asian Islands join to form an Asian Military Alliance similar to NATO. This terrifies them, it seems. That is what the US is trying to prevent. So in short, US is always at war (proxy or otherwise) with Asia. :biggrin2:

They have the same policy towards Africa & South America.
 

Nuvneet Kundu

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Imagine if Russia, China, India, Japan, Korea & South East Asian Islands join to form an Asian Military Alliance similar to NATO. This terrifies them, it seems. That is what the US is trying to prevent. So in short, US is always at war (proxy or otherwise) with Asia. :biggrin2:

They have the same policy towards Africa & South America.
Very true. Check this out, you will find this interesting to hear it straight from the horse's mouth :

 

Screambowl

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Imagine if Russia, China, India, Japan, Korea & South East Asian Islands join to form an Asian Military Alliance similar to NATO. This terrifies them, it seems. That is what the US is trying to prevent. So in short, US is always at war (proxy or otherwise) with Asia. :biggrin2:

They have the same policy towards Africa & South America.
Pakistan will try to work as american proxy so that it does not happen :p , but we can do it on economic basis :D

Actually , Pakistan is place, where Americans lure Chinese and Chinese lure Americans to get intel, through ISI. This is one reason, for which Russians stay away from Pakis. Because Pakis are the biggest dealers/broker (dalaals) of intel. It's a geographical absurdity.
 

Bahamut

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But that won't happen as long as we are playing into their hands. If US develops ties with India, they can overlook Pakistan as a counter to China.



Their ultimate objective, always, has been to be the sole super-power & to dictate world politics. They already head NATO. The unknown variable to their equation is Asia. And they will do all they can to keep Asians fighting with each other.
Russia is also more Asia-friendly, thanks to their isolation from Europe by NATO.

Imagine if Russia, China, India, Japan, Korea & South East Asian Islands join to form an Asian Military Alliance similar to NATO. This terrifies them, it seems. That is what the US is trying to prevent. So in short, US is always at war (proxy or otherwise) with Asia. :biggrin2:

They have the same policy towards Africa & South America.
The hate which Koreans have for Japaneses make India Pak look like good friends.It will take a lot of leadership for such a thing to happen.
 

Bahamut

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i guess i might understand haw you feel and i dont blame you at all ...my only hope is we differentiate between the real ones and the fakes .



exactly ! most interesting



even worse than corruption is ( i hope i can now say WAS ) the absolute lack of strategic policy



yeah ! well put

my take is that IF donald J gets to the oval office and replaced the taleban rep currently in there ... we ARE going to see a radical change in alignments ...i have little doubt about that

for a season ( like years ) th eusa is going to give up exotic and "refined " involvements with packland ....donald is the kind of guy who thinks straight and hits hard and if people like senator roarbacher also raise their voices we are going to see more direct alignments and less complications

the people of the usa from who the military are drafted will also want to see less overseas involvement other than immediate direct action and less loading assets and pampering packland but rather telling pack's generals what one usa senator once told a pack general that we will bomb you back to the stone age ....

i think we are gonna hear more of that kind of direct talk

depending o how the iowa polls and the rest of it goes , if donald is seen to be winning watch for signs of big time panic in packland

it will be the beginning of the end for their pampered status which they have been unduly enjoying for far too long ....so watch for signals of panic from there

Britain my want to advocate for the packs but i think donald wont give them time of day especially as the talebs in uk had raised a few hundred thousand signatures against him ....plus usa wants to bolster itself first before going around to bail out the brits

only question that raises doubts for me is how long can donald gain the confidence of the military industrial complex and if something untoward happen to him

i feel confident india can have great dialog with donald , we will need good usa -based communicators and diplomats and lobbyists to get the job done ....we cant send a robe clothed saint to communicate with him , and i think even modi should not communicate directly too much

we will seriously need better communicators and usa based lobbyists who already know the system and have great contacts in the oval office and pentagon etc

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no smoking

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Just the way PLA/CCP use to do in North East states of India. One of these days CIA might start in your land as well.
You talk as if CIA didn't do it.
You know what, CIA did that already, with the help of INDIA.
Even today, India intelligence is still quite active in Afghanistan training those willing to fight against Chinese and Pakistan. Yes, your intelligence doesn't tell your media that.
 

sorcerer

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You talk as if CIA didn't do it.
You know what, CIA did that already, with the help of INDIA.
Even today, India intelligence is still quite active in Afghanistan training those willing to fight against Chinese and Pakistan. Yes, your intelligence doesn't tell your media that.
Ofcourse Indian Intelligence is active in Afghanistan... If the information is right..the Spy Chief of Afghan is in India discussing mutual corporation to counter terrorism from pakistan. So that does tell about Indian support for Afghan intel and vice versa. India is trying to keep her diplomatic investment in the region protected just like what chinese are trying to achieve with ISI. But its ISI which is known for supporting terrorism around the world.

Apart from the pakis nobody else (other foreign intel) is blaming anything on Indian Intel agencies :)
So we must be doing an AWESOME job in Afghanistan.

CIA will work through pakistan in East Turkestan with ISIS proxy. It is Just a matter of time. CIA must be waiting for Chinese investment in the region to gain a level where the stakes are high than just human casualties.
 

Syd

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You talk as if CIA didn't do it.
You know what, CIA did that already, with the help of INDIA.
Even today, India intelligence is still quite active in Afghanistan training those willing to fight against Chinese and Pakistan. Yes, your intelligence doesn't tell your media that.
At last, a Chinese admits their involvement with the Afghan Taliban. So if China is involved why do you flag up the alleged Indian involvement?
 

Nuvneet Kundu

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@Syd China has never hid their involvement with Taliban, on the contrary they announce on their international media outlets that they are having talks. They have even invited the Taliban to China to have discussions.
 

Syd

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@Syd China has never hid their involvement with Taliban, on the contrary they announce on their international media outlets that they are having talks. They have even invited the Taliban to China to have discussions.
China has attempted to play the role of "honest broker" i.e. the neutral neighbour. If not would the Afghan Gov bother to attend any meeting arranged by China? But this guy says that Indian Intelligence is training those attacking Pak and China. This is the first time (that I am aware) they have claimed to have been attacked by Indian sponsored elements

He probably means the "Pak Taliban" but he has not backed up his claim with fact. A reference to a neutral source(UN, EU) would be acceptable not rabid Pak and Chinese propaganda. I suppose that he is aware that some of the Uighur agitators are based in Pak?
 

Nuvneet Kundu

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China has attempted to play the role of "honest broker" i.e. the neutral neighbour. If not would the Afghan Gov bother to attend any meeting arranged by China?
Why would the Afghan government attend any meeting not favorable to them you ask? There's this little thing called 'beggars can't be choosers'. I don't mean it in a derogatory way but the reality of Afghanistan is that anyone who controls the largest insurgency has a seat at the negotiation table. China has gained favor with Taliban by various means and the Taliban is their ticket to the great game that is being played in Afghanistan by all major world powers. All of them (US, China and Europe) has managed to keep India isolated from this game by allowing China to fill the vacuum that India could have otherwise filled.

So yeah, that's the reason Afghanistan pretty much has to abide by the terms set by the Chinese. There are no honest brokers or altruists in geopolitics. Why would China want to mediate and why would the US allow China to mediate in a conflict where the US has spent numerous lives, 2 Trillion of dollars (at the rate of 180Bn per year)? The very fact that China has secured itself a seat at the negotiation table means it has made comparable investments to corner a large section of influencers in the region and the US had to concede that no negotiation can be successful without China.
 

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The biggest question that is on every Indian’s mind even as the messy details of the Pathankot operations gradually come to light is why our intelligence agencies have never had the stomach to resort to covert action to cripple terrorist infrastructures in Pakistan.

What is alarming – and this is based on long and searching conversations I have had with a few covert operation specialists in our intelligence agencies – is that the security organisations have allowed their Western counterparts to control them.


Indian army soldiers climb up the stairs of a residential building outside the air force base in Pathankot, Sunday, January 3, 2016. (Photo: AP)
Last evening, as the Pathankot mess unfolded, one former specialist revealed that as far back as 1993-94, the American CIA and British Secret Intelligence Service (MI6) literally forbade the Research and Analysis Wing (RAW) from launching covert operations in Pakistan. These meetings, which were part of the liaison arrangement that the RAW had – and continues to have – Western intelligence agencies have been to the detriment of India and its ability to strike back clandestinely across the border.



Western Agencies’ Control
“Their argument was that Pakistan being a rogue state does not mean that you too stoop to its levels,” a former top RAW officer said, quoting his American counterpart at one liaison meeting, adding that “we have been forced to fight but with our hands tied behind our backs just because one of the Western agencies’ stakes in Pakistan are far too deep.”

We have been forced to fight but with our hands tied behind our backs just because one of the Western agencies’ stakes in Pakistan are far too deep

Former top RAW Officer

The pressure exerted and the control exercised by the two Western intelligence agencies continues. The only difference now is that there is an additional foreign security organisation (which worked closely with the RAW to train the LTTE) which has been able to establish a stranglehold over our intelligence community.


Snapshot
Click here to collapse
India’s Covert Action Experience
  • What is alarming is that the Indian security organisations have allowed their Western counterparts to control them.
  • Till 1993-94, the CIA and British Secret Intelligence Service (MI6) literally forbade the RAW from launching covert operations in Pakistan.
  • Not just the executive is to be blamed, the IB is known to resort to puerile means to ‘catch spies’
  • Covert action could also involve mobilising political forces across borders the way it was done with near precision in Bangladesh in 1992

Incapable of Artful Subtlety
Even as the same forces that have repeatedly attacked India have grown in West Asia, the commonsense wisdom should be that it must rest on our ability to know, to understand, to predict and – when the moment is opportune – to act. But India has never had the capability of acting with artful subtlety or, in other words, undertaking covert operations in our neighbourhood.


French President Jacques Chirac (L) talks with the then Indian Prime Minister Inder Kumar Gujral in New Delhi, January 25, 1998. (Photo: Reuters)
Ever since the then Prime Minister Inder Gujral issued unwritten orders to wind up RAW’s modest covert action capabilities, the agency has found itself crippled and wanting in raising the cost of the clandestine war for Pakistan.

But it is not just executive orders – and cold feet among India’s political class – that have forced the RAW or even the IB to turn to conventional or benign methods of gathering intelligence. It is no secret that the intelligence agencies, especially the IB, have resorted to underhand, and sometimes puerile means, to “catch spies”.


Past Covert Operations
There indeed was a time – in the 80s and early 90s – that the RAW could act with near-total freedom when covert action would be carried out in India’s neighbourhood. Covert operations need not involve sending in special forces across international borders to create mayhem and large scale disturbances in neighbouring countries where governments or non-state actors have been inimical to Indian interests.


Bangladesh’s Prime Minister Sheikh Hasina stands along with army officers for the national anthem during the celebration of the country’s 45th Victory Day in Dhaka, December 16, 2015. (Photo: Reuters)
Covert action could also involve mobilising political forces across borders to bring down governments and this was done with near precision in Bangladesh in 1992 when the RAW was able to bring together the two warring begums – Sheikh Hasina and Khaleda Zia – to run a pro-democracy movement that finally led to the toppling of Lieutenant General H M Ershad.

Specialists have also undertaken covert operations in Afghanistan around the time the Taliban was gaining ground there, clandestinely meeting an Uzbek warlord in European capitals. Others have secretly moved huge consignments of weapons to ethnic insurgent groups in Myanmar.


Narasimha Rao’s Foresight
Former RAW and IB officers recall that the then Prime Minister P V Narasimha Rao has been the “only PM” who understood the foreign policy value of covert operations. When brief unsigned proposals would be taken to him, Rao would, as was his wont, simply nodded to give executive approval to individual covert ops. “That executive authority and decisiveness to sanction covert action has since been sorely lacking,” a former RAW special secretary said.



Indian soldiers stand guard outside the besieged airbase in Pathankot, Monday, January 4, 2016. (Photo: AP)
Lack of Commitment
Critics at once assault the RAW and the IB for incompetence and omnipotence. But it is when the country is faced with national security crises that they are exposed as blundering fools who otherwise manage to deviously manipulate information and events to claim success.

After a series of unpardonable failures and blunders, Pathankot has now thrown up questions that have been asked before. Why didn’t we know? Why didn’t we act more aggressively to prevent the attack? Why were we so unprepared to respond quickly? Why did/do we lack the skills of stealth and deception, contacts/sources/agents and the ability to infiltrate/penetrate the deadly jihadi groups in Pakistan?

The one answer to the clutch of questions is: historically, members of our so-called intelligence community, have been inert with no sense of security first and incapable of the derring-do, expertise, specialisation and commitment that the job of collecting and analysing intelligence demands.

http://www.thequint.com/opinion/201...mied-by-cia-mi6-pressure#.Vqb_c79pRgM.twitter
Indians you don't get one thing that is you are not USA and we are not Afghanistan or Iraq. So in other words you can do nothing
 

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