Indian Weapons asking for Reservation

[ersakthivel]

Because you don't have compelling & incriminating evidence, you summarily exonerate the accused of all allegations (make-believe or otherwise) ?

You place too much of your faith in Indian systems (investigating agencies, judiciary, bureaucracies etc). Our glorified systems are not as much a iron-curtain as they might have been in some distant past. Basically, there are many systemic loopholes that dalaals know how to exploit to their advantage. Tenders/committes/RFI/RFP's/Panel/commitee etc. are there in every organization but from what we have seen all our lives, right from DIO & BDO at Panchayat & block level to the MES (Military Engg. Services) & to the MoD level, screwing/un-screwing a few nuts-bolts here and there is an everyday affair & that the only way, our systems work.

However, I agree with you regarding the DPSU & Armed forces' corruption part, something which would be plain visible to anyone who have family member/relatives in there.

If Ajai Shukla is lobbying for Arjun (we dont know who is offering bribe here)and F-35(which is an FMS deal with no source for bribes!!!), can we extend the list to know who else are lobbying for which product?

Indian investigating agencies have no means to unrvael slush money deposited in secret accounts in tax havens abroad.

If we see the recent westland,rolsroyce engines and LCH exposes, we come to know of it only when foreign investigating agencies inform us after they get the leads.

 

[p2prada]

Because you don't have compelling & incriminating evidence, you summarily exonerate the accused of all allegations (make-believe or otherwise) ?

You mean me? Or the courts and CBI? Without evidence, nothing can be done.

You place too much of your faith in Indian systems (investigating agencies, judiciary, bureaucracies etc). Our glorified systems are not as much a iron-curtain as they might have been in some distant past. Basically, there are many systemic loopholes that dalaals know how to exploit to their advantage. Tenders/committes/RFI/RFP's/Panel/commitee etc. are there in every organization but from what we have seen all our lives, right from DIO & BDO at Panchayat & block level to the MES (Military Engg. Services) & to the MoD level, screwing/un-screwing a few nuts-bolts here and there is an everyday affair & that the only way, our systems work.

Foreign lobbyists exercising total dominance over Indian arms imports is impossible. They can't pull it off. Far too many "top" people are involved in the system for all for them to be bribed. Some cannot be bribed at all, and that is a show stopper for the corrupt, like the example of Chief VK Singh.

Getting information shouldn't be difficult for foreign companies, but changing requirements to suit their agenda is a whole different cup of tea.

What we see in the civilian domain is very different.

 

[ersakthivel]

Kunal biswas has mentioned an interesting fact , people who complain that problem is with OFB often ignore the point that it is the same OFB which will license produce import rifles.

And the problems mentioned with INSAS are all old teething issues which are fully rectified by now,

What is drivin the new muti cal tender is as usual sudden change in requirements by Army.

 

[Pulkit]

See same what i said one thing or another .. One more loop hole...
The quality has been an issue .... What has anybody done for improving that?
Just as you said many Ifs and Buts...
It snot cooking anything just my view.... explains what is cooked...
you have replied to all my points stating another fact... which means my reasons doubts hold some ground...

Okay.....
I think today with INSAS the issue was not the quality but the need for a more advanced and upgraded rifle....

Like you said...
If DRDO cannot deliver it....What could be the possible reasons:
1)Funds:I doubt as this things will be on priority if not then it should be...
2)Quality:Always an issue need to improve it for sure....
3)Reliability:Ithink over so many years we have recieved enough exp to solve this issue.
4)Cost:Indian made will be always cheaper not per peice but in long run as the parts can be arranged easily and you dont have to rely on other country for maintenance etc...


One person cannot do jack shit ..LOL remember what one person Antony did to countrys defense.... he crippled it...
166,000 rifles is not a small number I believe it will be a phase vise replacement and as i can understand cost of this particular order is gonna be huge....

STuff that even works but is Indian is not ordered in good numbers.... I need not to proove that its been a fact for long....

The problem with the DRDO rifles isn't DRDO, but the quality of rifles made by OFB. Quality control is very poor for INSAS.

It is yet to be seen what is the future of DRDO's MCIWS and whether it will trump over the current 66,000 order. If DRDO can deliver I see no reason why the army won't order it. But if ends up being more expensive or less capable than the winner of the tender, then fat chance. Lots of ifs and buts and only time will tell.

The current goal for import is 166,000 rifles. It's still a very small number. There is an extremely high chance the INSAS will be replaced by the new MCIWS. So, this could be like what happened in the mid-'90s where 100,000 Bulgarian AK-47s were purchased before IA placed an order for 650,000 INSAS.

You can't jump to conclusions before knowing or understanding the ground realities.



He can't do jack-shit.



Stuff that doesn't work is not ordered. I have already explained that.

And what was ordered in mere numbers after which the same thing was imported? There is no such thing. You are just cooking up stories.

 

[Pulkit]

Kunal biswas has mentioned an interesting fact , people who complain that problem is with OFB often ignore the point that it is the same OFB which will license produce import rifles.

And the problems mentioned with INSAS are all old teething issues which are fully rectified by now,

What is drivin the new muti cal tender is as usual sudden change in requirements by Army.

Thats what needs to change ...No Body wants to control or restrict Defense forces but a check is required for sure....
The best way is two organisation having opposite goals to keep a check on each other... Customer keeping a check at maufacture and vise versa....

 

[p2prada]

See same what i said one thing or another .. One more loop hole...
The quality has been an issue .... What has anybody done for improving that?

There is no drive to improve quality. It is simply how DPSUs work.

If DRDO cannot deliver it....What could be the possible reasons:
1)Funds:I doubt as this things will be on priority if not then it should be...
2)Quality:Always an issue need to improve it for sure....
3)Reliability:Ithink over so many years we have recieved enough exp to solve this issue.
4)Cost:Indian made will be always cheaper not per peice but in long run as the parts can be arranged easily and you dont have to rely on other country for maintenance etc...

Funds: They receive adequate funds.
Quality: Not good. It isn't easy to deliver quality. The recent F-35 fire is an example.
Reliability: Not yet. Reliability comes when you get export orders.
Cost: Does it really matter as much as you think? INSAS costs Rs 8000, while the Bulgarian AK-47 costs Rs 2800. This is back in the '90s. The AK-47 is more reliable and has better quality.

One person cannot do jack shit ..LOL remember what one person Antony did to countrys defense.... he crippled it...

That has more to do with the slow bureaucracy than corruption.

166,000 rifles is not a small number I believe it will be a phase vise replacement and as i can understand cost of this particular order is gonna be huge....

IA ordered 100,000 AK-47s in 1996 and the next year they place an order for 650,000 INSAS rifles. I hope you do understand that IA is now over 1 million strong. Around half of them will be active users of this rifle. 166,000 is a small number in comparison to the size of the army. Then there is other wings too, IAF, IN, paramilitary etc. They all may end up using DRDO MCIWS. If the gun is good, the order may eventually cross 1 million.

More importantly, the 166,000 will come with ToT. So, OFB factories will be able to use that experience to make a better quality MCIWS when it is ready. Newer manufacturing techniques can be used. Newer storage techniques will become available. Newer transportation techniques will be used and so on. All of this will directly benefit MCIWS.

STuff that even works but is Indian is not ordered in good numbers.... I need not to proove that its been a fact for long....

Give examples. Don't just make a blind statement without backing it with facts. Explain what was good but wasn't ordered.

If you have come to this conclusion, then you should have done some research about it. But if you don't know what you are talking about, then why make such assertions?

What you are saying is not a fact.

 

[Pulkit]

Drive to improve Quality .... It is simply how DPSUs work ..if thats the case. Then why even go for TOT as even then they will be the one manufacturing it....
Just take the deliveries....why pay for TOT... no fun right??
Funds:Same as i said
Quality:True
Reliability:Why will other country give orders even if your own Army is not using that weapon? Reliability is not related to exports.... Teh reliability of Brahmos is high without any export orders.... true or not?

My leadership needs not to work what can i do ... Reason on behalf of beaurocats...
Miniter didnt sign the file... It was delayed but he never signed it approved it... then...
Antony did nothing... "No Deals No Scams Man".

We are close to 13+Lakh strong are they all need good weapons...

as you said if the MCIWS quality is good then only it will be inducted true ... but as you earlier said the DPSUs cannot improve so why even develop them ... why waste money on them... lets scrap all the projects ... can instead of 60%app foreign weapons lets move towards 100%....


Example:Arjun Mk1 Tejas Mk1 names are enough to tell the whole story ...

Facts never need proof or backing...



But I still wonder how come army never complains about the weapons made by same DPSUs under TOT or licence... what happen to them then?
So as you said DPSUs can never improve lets close them and let private sector take the whole responsibility in achieving 100% import status ... Nothing made in India...

There is no drive to improve quality. It is simply how DPSUs work.



Funds: They receive adequate funds.
Quality: Not good. It isn't easy to deliver quality. The recent F-35 fire is an example.
Reliability: Not yet. Reliability comes when you get export orders.
Cost: Does it really matter as much as you think? INSAS costs Rs 8000, while the Bulgarian AK-47 costs Rs 2800. This is back in the '90s. The AK-47 is more reliable and has better quality.



That has more to do with the slow bureaucracy than corruption.



IA ordered 100,000 AK-47s in 1996 and the next year they place an order for 650,000 INSAS rifles. I hope you do understand that IA is now over 1 million strong. Around half of them will be active users of this rifle. 166,000 is a small number in comparison to the size of the army. Then there is other wings too, IAF, IN, paramilitary etc. They all may end up using DRDO MCIWS. If the gun is good, the order may eventually cross 1 million.

More importantly, the 166,000 will come with ToT. So, OFB factories will be able to use that experience to make a better quality MCIWS when it is ready. Newer manufacturing techniques can be used. Newer storage techniques will become available. Newer transportation techniques will be used and so on. All of this will directly benefit MCIWS.



Give examples. Don't just make a blind statement without backing it with facts. Explain what was good but wasn't ordered.

If you have come to this conclusion, then you should have done some research about it. But if you don't know what you are talking about, then why make such assertions?

What you are saying is not a fact.

 

[p2prada]

Drive to improve Quality .... It is simply how DPSUs work ..if thats the case. Then why even go for TOT as even then they will be the one manufacturing it....
Just take the deliveries....why pay for TOT... no fun right??

During license manufacture, quality is ensured by the foreign company, not OFB.

Teh reliability of Brahmos is high without any export orders.... true or not?

You will see what happens when it becomes open for export next year. Brahmos come with Russian guarantees.

OTOH, we will have to wait for export orders for Akash and Pinaka. Dhruv is a success since exports gave a pretty good response.

My leadership needs not to work what can i do ... Reason on behalf of beaurocats...
Miniter didnt sign the file... It was delayed but he never signed it approved it... then...
Antony did nothing... "No Deals No Scams Man".

You are confusing inefficiency with corruption. They are unrelated to what we were discussing.

as you said if the MCIWS quality is good then only it will be inducted true ... but as you earlier said the DPSUs cannot improve so why even develop them ... why waste money on them... lets scrap all the projects ... can instead of 60%app foreign weapons lets move towards 100%....

Some army people, including Ray, say the same thing. They consider the money on DRDO to be an utter waste.

But I still believe we need DRDO eventually when they make good weapons. But until they make good weapons, they should keep aiming to make good weapons without holding the forces hostage. Unfortunately that isn't happening.

The Indian Army is less advanced than Pak Army today. That's why we didn't go to war in 2008 after Mumbai attacks. Pak Army has more advanced tanks than India now and are developing even better tanks with the Chinese and the Ukranians. That's why the T-72 and T-90 upgrade programs were fast-tracked. We plan on upgrading 1500 T-72s and 600 T-90s. The army will be war-ready only in 2019. That's slipped by 2 years.

Example:Arjun Mk1 Tejas Mk1 names are enough to tell the whole story ...

Incorrect. You said that the army buys a few but still opts for imports "after." T-90 deals were stuck before Arjun became available. So, there was no need for Arjun when it was ready. When T-90 was first ordered, Arjun wasn't even a proper tank. Remember the rifle story from my previous post? Arjun wasn't ready, was more expensive and less sophisticated than the T-90, so it lost to the T-90.

LCA is a different class of aircraft and nearly 178 will be ordered. That's very good numbers. Rafale numbers are also similar. Tejas Mk1 will never be a full fledged fighter, that's why numbers were curtailed. ADA is also not pushing for more Mk1 orders. The navy has categorically rejected the Mk1 as a fighter aircraft right from the beginning. It was always Mk2 or bust. They will induct only 8 Mk1s as trainers. So, when ADA itself understands that then why is it causing a problem for you?

Facts never need proof or backing...

Facts are facts only when there is proof. Sorry, but you don't have any examples because there are none.

But I still wonder how come army never complains about the weapons made by same DPSUs under TOT or licence... what happen to them then?

They do complain. For eg: Indian made T-90 was ready for induction in 2008, but the army refused to take deliveries until the gun barrels were changed. The barrels were changed and the T-90s were delivered by HVF in 2009, a year later. It is no different with Su-30 or Mi-17 or even Rafale.

So as you said DPSUs can never improve lets close them and let private sector take the whole responsibility in achieving 100% import status ... Nothing made in India...

DPSUs can never improve by themselves. But when foreign companies start dealing with them in license production, they employ foreign production and quality standards as dictated by the foreign company. So, after the production is complete, the standards that were used become the new standards. So, if the army orders something else in the future, then the standards set by the foreign company become the standard to follow.

For eg: During MRCA, I got the information that some of the Su-30's standard performance was used in the evaluations. So, the best fighter we have became the benchmark for MRCA.

Earlier Russian aircraft would have service life of just 2000 hours, like Mig-21. That was eventually improved to 4000 on Mig-29 and Su-30, this has improved to 6000 hours on Su-35. We don't know about PAKFA but it should be even higher. Similarly, Rafale is good for 8000 hours. There is incremental increase in quality every time a new system is invented and foreign license production brings new standards in faster.

If DPSUs are expected to achieve such standards alone, then it is impossible. But with foreign companies it becomes entirely possible. This is a primary driver behind license production. It helps the industry learn. That's why Dassault was resisting being held responsible for quality of Indian made Rafales. But now they have agreed to it. Now, HAL will learn to employ French quality standards on Rafale after having learnt inferior Russian quality standards on Su-30. This will directly benefit AMCA program when it happens and maybe even LCA Mk2.

 

[Pulkit]

The summary of what you wrote was that we will be happy army will be happy airforce and navy will be happy if DRDO and PSUs are controlled v=by foreign power...
Point vice:
During manufacture under licence also no gaurantee is given by the foreign... Similarly when in case of rafale this was asked then rafale refused and later made some arrangement which are still not public or finalised....
Before export it has done 6b business in India and Russian guarantee what russia guarantee.. Its a JV not a licence build or TOT that you can claim that.
Yes hopefully next year we will see...

In the case of Dhruv a success there was no such gaurantee...
In case of Pinak and Akash yes we have to wait till they are mature enough ....

I am not confusing inefficiency with corruption and they are interlinked.... they go hand in hand....

I did not say money on DRDO is an utter waste what i said was if they dont deliver every time and every time if we have to import then scrap it there is no use of it..
theres a difference....

DRDO makes good product then wat our DPSUs are not gonna change then whats the solution????

Firstly read what i wrote again... I quoted something similar not exactly a case was presented...

Arjun 1 was cleared from trials ... its was inducted in mere numbers ...why? at that time it was as per the requirement of Army... Army made sure of it during trials .... you can have 1000+ foreign tanks and you keep your own tanks limited....
Upgradation improvements also happen on assembly lines....

I dont want to say anything on Rafale ... It should be scrapped...
LCA Mk1 was fit for IAF for interceptor and Defense line role they could hace easily gone till 100 with little dec in rafale but they didnt....

MK2 as many say will be close to Rafale even if not better by the time Rafael will be getting manufactured here in India Mk2 hopefully will also be ready for mass production....
Navy had a different req agreed...


Facts examples are useless if you dont wanna have a wider view and stick to your own views ignoring facts infront of you...

During license manufacture, quality is ensured by the foreign company, not OFB.



You will see what happens when it becomes open for export next year. Brahmos come with Russian guarantees.

OTOH, we will have to wait for export orders for Akash and Pinaka. Dhruv is a success since exports gave a pretty good response.



You are confusing inefficiency with corruption. They are unrelated to what we were discussing.



Some army people, including Ray, say the same thing. They consider the money on DRDO to be an utter waste.

But I still believe we need DRDO eventually when they make good weapons. But until they make good weapons, they should keep aiming to make good weapons without holding the forces hostage. Unfortunately that isn't happening.

The Indian Army is less advanced than Pak Army today. That's why we didn't go to war in 2008 after Mumbai attacks. Pak Army has more advanced tanks than India now and are developing even better tanks with the Chinese and the Ukranians. That's why the T-72 and T-90 upgrade programs were fast-tracked. We plan on upgrading 1500 T-72s and 600 T-90s. The army will be war-ready only in 2019. That's slipped by 2 years.



Incorrect. You said that the army buys a few but still opts for imports "after." T-90 deals were stuck before Arjun became available. So, there was no need for Arjun when it was ready. When T-90 was first ordered, Arjun wasn't even a proper tank. Remember the rifle story from my previous post? Arjun wasn't ready, was more expensive and less sophisticated than the T-90, so it lost to the T-90.

LCA is a different class of aircraft and nearly 178 will be ordered. That's very good numbers. Rafale numbers are also similar. Tejas Mk1 will never be a full fledged fighter, that's why numbers were curtailed. ADA is also not pushing for more Mk1 orders. The navy has categorically rejected the Mk1 as a fighter aircraft right from the beginning. It was always Mk2 or bust. They will induct only 8 Mk1s as trainers. So, when ADA itself understands that then why is it causing a problem for you?



Facts are facts only when there is proof. Sorry, but you don't have any examples because there are none.



They do complain. For eg: Indian made T-90 was ready for induction in 2008, but the army refused to take deliveries until the gun barrels were changed. The barrels were changed and the T-90s were delivered by HVF in 2009, a year later. It is no different with Su-30 or Mi-17 or even Rafale.



DPSUs can never improve by themselves. But when foreign companies start dealing with them in license production, they employ foreign production and quality standards as dictated by the foreign company. So, after the production is complete, the standards that were used become the new standards. So, if the army orders something else in the future, then the standards set by the foreign company become the standard to follow.

For eg: During MRCA, I got the information that some of the Su-30's standard performance was used in the evaluations. So, the best fighter we have became the benchmark for MRCA.

Earlier Russian aircraft would have service life of just 2000 hours, like Mig-21. That was eventually improved to 4000 on Mig-29 and Su-30, this has improved to 6000 hours on Su-35. We don't know about PAKFA but it should be even higher. Similarly, Rafale is good for 8000 hours. There is incremental increase in quality every time a new system is invented and foreign license production brings new standards in faster.

If DPSUs are expected to achieve such standards alone, then it is impossible. But with foreign companies it becomes entirely possible. This is a primary driver behind license production. It helps the industry learn. That's why Dassault was resisting being held responsible for quality of Indian made Rafales. But now they have agreed to it. Now, HAL will learn to employ French quality standards on Rafale after having learnt inferior Russian quality standards on Su-30. This will directly benefit AMCA program when it happens and maybe even LCA Mk2.

 

[p2prada]

The summary of what you wrote was that we will be happy army will be happy airforce and navy will be happy if DRDO and PSUs are controlled v=by foreign power...

You won't understand unless you know what ails the industry.

During manufacture under licence also no gaurantee is given by the foreign...

Nonsense. All foreign companies are expected to comply.

Similarly when in case of rafale this was asked then rafale refused and later made some arrangement which are still not public or finalised....

Dassault has agreed to all terms and conditions. Rafale quality is their headache, just like Su-30 quality is Russian headache. They have no choice but to work with HAL.

Before export it has done 6b business in India and Russian guarantee what russia guarantee.. Its a JV not a licence build or TOT that you can claim that.

It is the Russian ticket that will make the sales. And most of the countries in the export list will be Russian clients.

I am not confusing inefficiency with corruption and they are interlinked.... they go hand in hand....

So Anthony's lack of initiative resulted in Bofor's scandal?

His inefficiency does not relate to more corruption. You are confusing the issue here.

I did not say money on DRDO is an utter waste what i said was if they dont deliver every time and every time if we have to import then scrap it there is no use of it..

Yes, if something they make is not good enough, it is scrapped.

Arjun 1 was cleared from trials ... its was inducted in mere numbers ...why?

Arjun Mk1 never cleared trials until 2008. Arjun Mk1 cleared winter trials in 2010. Basically the tank was ready only in 2010. Because of DRDO and MoD pressures, the army ordered a substandard Arjun in 2007.

T-90 was ordered in 2001 and that became the standard tank for the next 30 years. That's a difference of 7 years.

Also note that the Arjun was inferior to the T-90 is primary attributes. The only aspect where it was better than the T-90 was in the electronics because T-90's electronics were complete in 1998 and Arjun's in 2007. Meaning, it was simply newer. In terms of firepower and armor, the T-90 was better.

at that time it was as per the requirement of Army...

No, it wasn't. CVRDE promised to rectify defects in the tank during production. It was the Indian style of concurrency.

Upgradation improvements also happen on assembly lines....

No. They happen in workshops not related to the assembly line. There are no Mig-29 and Mirage-2000 assembly lines in India, but the upgrades are happening in India as we speak.

I dont want to say anything on Rafale ... It should be scrapped...

Let's scrap IAF also.

LCA Mk1 was fit for IAF for interceptor and Defense line role they could hace easily gone till 100 with little dec in rafale but they didnt....

If that's the case then please explain why IN is inducting Mk1s as only trainers...

LCA Mk1 has failed to achieve even minimum requirements. Even ADA has announced that. You are completely wrong if you think Mk1 is even a fighter.

MK2 as many say will be close to Rafale

Only the ignorant on this forum claim that. Even ADA doesn't make such a claim. ADA actually claims Mk2 will bring it to original Mk1 specs that was supposed to have been. This is OFFICIAL news said by none other than the director of ADA. LCA Mk2 will be the original LCA Mk1 with AESA. It won't be anywhere close to Rafale. And I have recently been given an idea about the new schedule for LCA Mk2 also. It is not very flattering.

I had pointed out in 2012 than it will take 4 years just to design the LCA for the new engine. F-414 won in 2010, and the LCA's preliminary design was completed only this year. After this is the detailed design stage which will take many months. This will be followed by the R&D stage where they will build the first prototype, followed by flight testing. So, you guys can guess when it is going to be flying. According to the original schedule, LCA Mk2 was supposed to be flying today.

Look, I don't want to discuss LCA or Arjun. I will tell the truth and one particular mod will ban me as usual. I am still under infractions for no reason. Can't use my inbox or edits posts. I am sure you cannot see my avatar as well.

I only plan on getting to the magic 10000 posts and then I will be leaving. After that you can have fun making up stories, until then I am going to continue posting the real situation on the ground. Of course, you can go ahead and not believe it.

Navy had a different req agreed...

No. They only need more engine power and less approach speed with a new landing gear. IAF Mk1, as it is, doesn't even have optimum TWR, so forget about IN Mk1.

Facts examples are useless if you dont wanna have a wider view and stick to your own views ignoring facts infront of you...

What I have is a very wide view. A narrow view would be to shut down DRDO. What you have is fantasy. Learn to know the difference.

 

[Pulkit]

why you are targeted according to you i dont know and i think that need not be true ....
10000 posts is no target or achievement... if it is for you and you want to argue without understanding any one else point then wat eva number u wanna achieve u can go ahead with it...


coming to point:

Do enlighten me with what ails the industry?

Define quality for me here...?
yes anthony is corrupt as well as inefficient .... making loss by not doing anything about it is also corruption...


Russian didnt want it to enter into market as it will kill there own orders...
Yes the clients are gonna be same....


Sir i have worked on assembly lines and i know many ideas of improving a product comes from the experienced worker at assembly line ....

I don't believe that Arjun Mk1 is inferior and just like you I am stubborn enuf not to believe that...

I agreed with you on IN thing they needed more power and IAF took this opportunity to make way for more foreign goods...

You won't understand unless you know what ails the industry.



Nonsense. All foreign companies are expected to comply.



Dassault has agreed to all terms and conditions. Rafale quality is their headache, just like Su-30 quality is Russian headache. They have no choice but to work with HAL.



It is the Russian ticket that will make the sales. And most of the countries in the export list will be Russian clients.



So Anthony's lack of initiative resulted in Bofor's scandal?

His inefficiency does not relate to more corruption. You are confusing the issue here.



Yes, if something they make is not good enough, it is scrapped.



Arjun Mk1 never cleared trials until 2008. Arjun Mk1 cleared winter trials in 2010. Basically the tank was ready only in 2010. Because of DRDO and MoD pressures, the army ordered a substandard Arjun in 2007.

T-90 was ordered in 2001 and that became the standard tank for the next 30 years. That's a difference of 7 years.

Also note that the Arjun was inferior to the T-90 is primary attributes. The only aspect where it was better than the T-90 was in the electronics because T-90's electronics were complete in 1998 and Arjun's in 2007. Meaning, it was simply newer. In terms of firepower and armor, the T-90 was better.



No, it wasn't. CVRDE promised to rectify defects in the tank during production. It was the Indian style of concurrency.



No. They happen in workshops not related to the assembly line. There are no Mig-29 and Mirage-2000 assembly lines in India, but the upgrades are happening in India as we speak.



Let's scrap IAF also.



If that's the case then please explain why IN is inducting Mk1s as only trainers...

LCA Mk1 has failed to achieve even minimum requirements. Even ADA has announced that. You are completely wrong if you think Mk1 is even a fighter.



Only the ignorant on this forum claim that. Even ADA doesn't make such a claim. ADA actually claims Mk2 will bring it to original Mk1 specs that was supposed to have been. This is OFFICIAL news said by none other than the director of ADA. LCA Mk2 will be the original LCA Mk1 with AESA. It won't be anywhere close to Rafale. And I have recently been given an idea about the new schedule for LCA Mk2 also. It is not very flattering.

I had pointed out in 2012 than it will take 4 years just to design the LCA for the new engine. F-414 won in 2010, and the LCA's preliminary design was completed only this year. After this is the detailed design stage which will take many months. This will be followed by the R&D stage where they will build the first prototype, followed by flight testing. So, you guys can guess when it is going to be flying. According to the original schedule, LCA Mk2 was supposed to be flying today.

Look, I don't want to discuss LCA or Arjun. I will tell the truth and one particular mod will ban me as usual. I am still under infractions for no reason. Can't use my inbox or edits posts. I am sure you cannot see my avatar as well.

I only plan on getting to the magic 10000 posts and then I will be leaving. After that you can have fun making up stories, until then I am going to continue posting the real situation on the ground. Of course, you can go ahead and not believe it.



No. They only need more engine power and less approach speed with a new landing gear. IAF Mk1, as it is, doesn't even have optimum TWR, so forget about IN Mk1.



What I have is a very wide view. A narrow view would be to shut down DRDO. What you have is fantasy. Learn to know the difference.

 

[LastProphet]

Only Indian citizens can apply for posts in DRDO. Foreign consultants are accepted, but they are hired through tenders and represent large companies like EADS.

It's not lack of brains or resources, it is all because of mismanagement. Every work group does their own thing and there is no synergy. This is especially the case in large projects where multiple labs are involved with multiple teams under them.

Do you know what really happens here? Say for example I ask you to make a male connector of 2cm dia, another team may make a female connector of 1cm dia. When both have their products ready and they come to interconnect them, obviously fiasco happens. Naturally, none of them take the blame. Work restarts. This time the first team makes 1cm dia and the other team makes 2cm dia, process repeats until they get it right. I have simplified it, but this is what happens, just imagine on a larger scale with materials and tolerances that takes months to finish.

Recently there was a small explosion in a Bangalore lab that I cannot reveal, and it has delayed a "very important" project by a few months. The reason was because one guy (team) was doing something else and another guy (team) came and tampered with it. They were messing with batteries and boom. Nobody was hurt, but "product" was damaged. Neither side knew what the other side was doing. How will the avionics team know what the FCS team is doing and viceversa? They simply lack the experience to work together.

Lack of experience is another cause for failure. When they are designing an airframe, they can't get the loads right the first or the second time, it is a series of hits and misses. They keep trying different combinations until they get a few right. And just so you know this takes weeks to work on. So, what Boeing may take one month, we may take 10 months to finish. Naturally, this will take time. But if you add this with mismanagement, you can only imagine the delays it will cause. That's what is happening to many projects, not just LCA. A friend of mine worked on the same thing for nine months straight and provided a dozen different loads for the same aircraft.

So, when they give deadlines, they are actually quite flexible and realistic, if they were Boeing. What they cannot take into consideration is the failure of one or more teams in large projects, this aspect is impossible to predict.

Consultation can avoid most of this problem and save time. They should have done this properly from the start. What consultants do is, like in my previous examples with loads, the designers work on just two or three loads, and the consultants decide which is the best tolerances to use. This saves them months in determining it by themselves. However it is difficult in the case of India than if we were Korea. We are a growing power and we are eventually going to compete with these big companies, and they know it. They could even give wrong information, so there is always such risk involved.

As long as the armed forces are not held hostage to this, it would be fine. But that's not happening.

When DRDO makes something there is no guarantee it will work. Even DRDO doesn't give that guarantee without having tested it for the umpteenth time. So, until the armed forces field tests it, they are not guaranteed a good product. It is only after it is properly field tested do they come to know if something works or not. But when it comes to imported maal, they are already guaranteed that the system will work because that's the kind of reputation the companies have built up over the years. Foreign companies don't give or show defective products until they themselves have tested it at home or sold it to their own armed forces. So, when they bring something to the field, the armed forces is certain that it will work.

This same issues are less severe in the missile labs of the DRDO. DRDO's missile labs are highly regarded around the world now. When they bring something in for field testing the chances for failure is much lower, and the quality of the prototype itself is very high. Out of the 4 weapons systems I mentioned in my first post, you will notice that three of them are missiles.

What you have explained clearly shows just one thing and that is lack of a proper professional project management....

Good thing is DRDO has realised it and they are conducting workshops for their workforce and best part is its being conducted by professors from IIM's. j


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[p2prada]

why you are targeted according to you

Actually I am. My last infraction, I got it for no reason at all.

10000 posts is no target or achievement... if it is for you and you want to argue without understanding any one else point then wat eva number u wanna achieve u can go ahead with it...

That's not the reason. Explaining things in a simple way to laymen is easy.

I perfectly understand all the points everyone has made to date. I am pointing out that they are simplifying things without knowing any of the ground realities.

For eg: Saying that LCA Mk2 is equal to Rafale is the most absurd point anybody can make. Even those who know the basics of modern aircraft will know that the statement is so far out of reality that actually countering it is laughable. But the problem is certain elements are pushing this point as fact.

Gripen NG itself is far ahead of LCA Mk2, far ahead in most of the parameters, and in most categories even SAAB doesn't claim Gripen is as good as Rafale. They still claim that even though Rafale is better, Gripen is cheaper. I will repeat again, NG is a far more advanced aircraft in comparison to Mk2. It trumps the Mk2 in range, payload, number of hardpoints, capability of radar, maybe even EW and probably even in sensor fusion.

Do enlighten me with what ails the industry?

I already mentioned that. Mismanagement and lack of experience.

Define quality for me here...?

Easy to maintain, high reliability. Both are lacking.

yes anthony is corrupt as well as inefficient .... making loss by not doing anything about it is also corruption...

Then explain how Anthony being corrupt would mean that affects the choices made by the military in procuring weapons.

Russian didnt want it to enter into market as it will kill there own orders...

Russians gave export clearance years ago. Only Indian govt has to give clearance. This is what I mean when I say your "facts" are far rooted from ground realities. The Russians want the Brahmos to be sold outside as soon as possible.

Don't believe every media article you get your hands on.

I don't believe that Arjun Mk1 is inferior and just like you I am stubborn enuf not to believe that...

I am not the only one claiming that. There are three gentlemen from the Indian Army who also claimed the same. Gun specs, shell size, armor size, location etc give away such information to anybody.

T-90 has more armor, a better gun and better shells. According to the army gentlemen from the news debate, they said that the T-90 and Arjun have very similar mobility. So, the only thing left is electronics and in that department Arjun is ahead because it is newer.

I agreed with you on IN thing they needed more power and IAF took this opportunity to make way for more foreign goods...

What you wrote here doesn't make sense. What foreign goods? LCA Mk2 will be more indigenous than LCA Mk1. Right now, Mk1 is at 60-70%, and that will be raised to 80% on Mk2.

 

[Pulkit]

I go by the articles available on net and news i got no other source like urs...
tejas mk2 is going to be as good as it appears on paper....SAAB wanted to have major stake in it due to the potential is sees in the design of the aircraft...

Being from the aero field having basic knowedge of it I can say that MK2 if is completed as shown on paper will be a good alternative for RaFALE...
Cost id not the point here... electronics arms in mk2 will be Indians spares will be easily available.. and as u said mk2 will be more Indegious...
for antony i have already said doin nothin is also a crime for a person at his position...
and by foreign goods i meant Rafale nothing else.....

Actually I am. My last infraction, I got it for no reason at all.

That's not the reason. Explaining things in a simple way to laymen is easy.

I perfectly understand all the points everyone has made to date. I am pointing out that they are simplifying things without knowing any of the ground realities.

For eg: Saying that LCA Mk2 is equal to Rafale is the most absurd point anybody can make. Even those who know the basics of modern aircraft will know that the statement is so far out of reality that actually countering it is laughable. But the problem is certain elements are pushing this point as fact.

Gripen NG itself is far ahead of LCA Mk2, far ahead in most of the parameters, and in most categories even SAAB doesn't claim Gripen is as good as Rafale. They still claim that even though Rafale is better, Gripen is cheaper. I will repeat again, NG is a far more advanced aircraft in comparison to Mk2. It trumps the Mk2 in range, payload, number of hardpoints, capability of radar, maybe even EW and probably even in sensor fusion.

I already mentioned that. Mismanagement and lack of experience.

Easy to maintain, high reliability. Both are lacking.
Then explain how Anthony being corrupt would mean that affects the choices made by the military in procuring weapons.
Russians gave export clearance years ago. Only Indian govt has to give clearance. This is what I mean when I say your "facts" are far rooted from ground realities. The Russians want the Brahmos to be sold outside as soon as possible.

Don't believe every media article you get your hands on.

I am not the only one claiming that. There are three gentlemen from the Indian Army who also claimed the same. Gun specs, shell size, armor size, location etc give away such information to anybody.

T-90 has more armor, a better gun and better shells. According to the army gentlemen from the news debate, they said that the T-90 and Arjun have very similar mobility. So, the only thing left is electronics and in that department Arjun is ahead because it is newer.

What you wrote here doesn't make sense. What foreign goods? LCA Mk2 will be more indigenous than LCA Mk1. Right now, Mk1 is at 60-70%, and that will be raised to 80% on Mk2.

 

[p2prada]

I go by the articles available on net and news i got no other source like urs...
tejas mk2 is going to be as good as it appears on paper....SAAB wanted to have major stake in it due to the potential is sees in the design of the aircraft...

SAAB only saw the money involved and the easy requirements, not its design potential. When it comes to the export market, they would have obviously pushed Gripen, not LCA. They just wanted to earn money at DRDO's expense.

They wanted a 51% stake in the project. How about that? All the work we would do and SAAB will own LCA, not DRDO.

Being from the aero field having basic knowedge of it I can say that MK2 if is completed as shown on paper will be a good alternative for RaFALE...

Sorry, but being from the aero field you should know that having a 50% greater ROA and maybe even performance superiority, greater payload, well tested next gen avionics, advanced weaponry and reliable support structure by a company with 85 years of design experience counts more than an incomplete untested design with many problems. OTOH, let's see when LCA Mk2 flies first.

The way it is now, LCA Mk2 is no match for Rafale, especially in the geographical sectors where it is needed. LCA is a Mig-21 replacement, it is not an alternative to Rafale. People should start understanding that.

Cost id not the point here... electronics arms in mk2 will be Indians spares will be easily available.. and as u said mk2 will be more Indegious...

What's the point if engine is still sourced from elsewhere? And from a country that uses sanctions at the drop of a hat.

Being in the aero field, what would happen to the aircraft if the engine company withdraws support? You tell me.

And Rafale's electronics will be produced in India too. BEL will manufacture RBE-2AA radar and Spectra. Samtel will manufacture the cockpit display systems and HMDS. These are pretty much the most critical equipment. The engine will be manufactured at Koraput. And assembly will happen in Bangalore. At the beginning of the last phase, nearly 100% of the Rafale will be made in India. Eventually the plan is to make spares in India for French and other export Rafales. OTOH, we will only assemble F-414s here. The kits will come from the US for LCA.

At the beginning of Rafale's final phase of manufacturing, Rafale will be more Indian than LCA. At the end of Rafale's final phase, Rafale will be more Indian than LCA will ever be, that's nearly 100%. So, you still think it is bad?

Also, LCA will be 80% indigenous only because the avionics are getting more expensive by the day and more are being added while the engine costs will remain the same. Eventually they will get it to 90% indigenous, maybe one day it will be 95%. All because LCA's other costs will be increasing compared to the what could be the only foreign part on LCA that we cannot modify or manufacture.

As mentioned before in other threads, both IAF and ALA will decide on the future growth of Rafale. And both Dassault and HAL will be involved in designing future avionics for the Rafale. At the end of the day, Rafale will end up being more Indian than French, especially if they simply transfer the entire assembly line here. The CEO of Dassault has actually supported this move, even if it may not work out in the end.

and by foreign goods i meant Rafale nothing else.....

As threat perceptions change, so do requirements. The decision to go for MRCA had nothing to do with going for LCA Mk2. If LCA fails, the IAF has other options, but if Rafale fails, IAF is going to be in a very bad situation. That's the ground reality.

Anyway, this has changed into a LCA-Rafale discussion. It is pointless. Do you have anything more to say about DRDO instead?

 

[p2prada]

What you have explained clearly shows just one thing and that is lack of a proper professional project management....

Good thing is DRDO has realised it and they are conducting workshops for their workforce and best part is its being conducted by professors from IIM's. j

Do you know about NAL Saras? Do you know why it crashed and killed three people?

Because the pilots and scientists did not read the owner's manual for the engine before flying the aircraft.

 

[pankaj nema]

In the " Arms world " the two BIGGEST items are Fighter planes and Tanks

In both these fields DRDO has struggled with LCA and Arjun Tank

Hence we see a somewhat harsh criticism of DRDO

 

[Pulkit]

I am not going to again say whatever i have already said...Just one thing.... I am not saying Tejas is replacement for rafale .. Rafale is not a necessity its a luxury...

Yes Tejas should replace Migs then let them do that....You have 250 odd migs to be replaced and what on order present is close to 80 Tejas.... how do you suggest the gap is filled...

SAAB only saw the money involved and the easy requirements, not its design potential. When it comes to the export market, they would have obviously pushed Gripen, not LCA. They just wanted to earn money at DRDO's expense.

They wanted a 51% stake in the project. How about that? All the work we would do and SAAB will own LCA, not DRDO.



Sorry, but being from the aero field you should know that having a 50% greater ROA and maybe even performance superiority, greater payload, well tested next gen avionics, advanced weaponry and reliable support structure by a company with 85 years of design experience counts more than an incomplete untested design with many problems. OTOH, let's see when LCA Mk2 flies first.

The way it is now, LCA Mk2 is no match for Rafale, especially in the geographical sectors where it is needed. LCA is a Mig-21 replacement, it is not an alternative to Rafale. People should start understanding that.



What's the point if engine is still sourced from elsewhere? And from a country that uses sanctions at the drop of a hat.

Being in the aero field, what would happen to the aircraft if the engine company withdraws support? You tell me.

And Rafale's electronics will be produced in India too. BEL will manufacture RBE-2AA radar and Spectra. Samtel will manufacture the cockpit display systems and HMDS. These are pretty much the most critical equipment. The engine will be manufactured at Koraput. And assembly will happen in Bangalore. At the beginning of the last phase, nearly 100% of the Rafale will be made in India. Eventually the plan is to make spares in India for French and other export Rafales. OTOH, we will only assemble F-414s here. The kits will come from the US for LCA.

At the beginning of Rafale's final phase of manufacturing, Rafale will be more Indian than LCA. At the end of Rafale's final phase, Rafale will be more Indian than LCA will ever be, that's nearly 100%. So, you still think it is bad?

Also, LCA will be 80% indigenous only because the avionics are getting more expensive by the day and more are being added while the engine costs will remain the same. Eventually they will get it to 90% indigenous, maybe one day it will be 95%. All because LCA's other costs will be increasing compared to the what could be the only foreign part on LCA that we cannot modify or manufacture.

As mentioned before in other threads, both IAF and ALA will decide on the future growth of Rafale. And both Dassault and HAL will be involved in designing future avionics for the Rafale. At the end of the day, Rafale will end up being more Indian than French, especially if they simply transfer the entire assembly line here. The CEO of Dassault has actually supported this move, even if it may not work out in the end.



As threat perceptions change, so do requirements. The decision to go for MRCA had nothing to do with going for LCA Mk2. If LCA fails, the IAF has other options, but if Rafale fails, IAF is going to be in a very bad situation. That's the ground reality.

Anyway, this has changed into a LCA-Rafale discussion. It is pointless. Do you have anything more to say about DRDO instead?

 

[Pulkit]

You asked a question about Engine you have a issue with just engine imported then why dont you have same issue with A/C imported the logic is same....

How often will you change Engine how often rarely... but how often will you need spares like clips stablizers brackets rails etc quite often .... you cannot just groud an a/c if you dont have a single clip to be replaced....if we go with what you suggest the time you are talking is of 2025 when it will be 100% made in India that will be an era of 5th gen with fGFA and AMCa in sight in reality .... Rafale will no longer be an asset but an burden of 20b....

The reason given here is we need tech to develop AMCA fromFGFA and rafale... which is utter non sense...

once FGFA is completes AMCA will be in flow with foreign assistance if req but tot is not mandatory....


Electronic used in Tejas are far better than others in the same lot.....
SAAB wanted 51% I said major share wats the difference... i was in favour of partnership not giving any type of control..... mainly as a consultant nothing more.l.....

SAAB only saw the money involved and the easy requirements, not its design potential. When it comes to the export market, they would have obviously pushed Gripen, not LCA. They just wanted to earn money at DRDO's expense.

They wanted a 51% stake in the project. How about that? All the work we would do and SAAB will own LCA, not DRDO.



Sorry, but being from the aero field you should know that having a 50% greater ROA and maybe even performance superiority, greater payload, well tested next gen avionics, advanced weaponry and reliable support structure by a company with 85 years of design experience counts more than an incomplete untested design with many problems. OTOH, let's see when LCA Mk2 flies first.

The way it is now, LCA Mk2 is no match for Rafale, especially in the geographical sectors where it is needed. LCA is a Mig-21 replacement, it is not an alternative to Rafale. People should start understanding that.



What's the point if engine is still sourced from elsewhere? And from a country that uses sanctions at the drop of a hat.

Being in the aero field, what would happen to the aircraft if the engine company withdraws support? You tell me.

And Rafale's electronics will be produced in India too. BEL will manufacture RBE-2AA radar and Spectra. Samtel will manufacture the cockpit display systems and HMDS. These are pretty much the most critical equipment. The engine will be manufactured at Koraput. And assembly will happen in Bangalore. At the beginning of the last phase, nearly 100% of the Rafale will be made in India. Eventually the plan is to make spares in India for French and other export Rafales. OTOH, we will only assemble F-414s here. The kits will come from the US for LCA.

At the beginning of Rafale's final phase of manufacturing, Rafale will be more Indian than LCA. At the end of Rafale's final phase, Rafale will be more Indian than LCA will ever be, that's nearly 100%. So, you still think it is bad?

Also, LCA will be 80% indigenous only because the avionics are getting more expensive by the day and more are being added while the engine costs will remain the same. Eventually they will get it to 90% indigenous, maybe one day it will be 95%. All because LCA's other costs will be increasing compared to the what could be the only foreign part on LCA that we cannot modify or manufacture.

As mentioned before in other threads, both IAF and ALA will decide on the future growth of Rafale. And both Dassault and HAL will be involved in designing future avionics for the Rafale. At the end of the day, Rafale will end up being more Indian than French, especially if they simply transfer the entire assembly line here. The CEO of Dassault has actually supported this move, even if it may not work out in the end.



As threat perceptions change, so do requirements. The decision to go for MRCA had nothing to do with going for LCA Mk2. If LCA fails, the IAF has other options, but if Rafale fails, IAF is going to be in a very bad situation. That's the ground reality.

Anyway, this has changed into a LCA-Rafale discussion. It is pointless. Do you have anything more to say about DRDO instead?

 

[Pulkit]

In the " Arms world " the two BIGGEST items are Fighter planes and Tanks

In both these fields DRDO has struggled with LCA and Arjun Tank

Hence we see a somewhat harsh criticism of DRDO

They face criticism due to delays and quality.... With no exp and no aid in any of these fields DRDO has done a pretty decent job....
Its just that defense forces and DRDO hav enever been in sync... which is req today the most