Indian T-90S a sub-standard tank ?

[Koovie]

By such logic, the only really modern tanks that were participating in full scale war also fighting with other tanks and armored vehicles and encountered modern anti tank weapons, would be M1A1/M1A2 series, Challenger 2 and Merkava Mk4... Other modern tanks were used only in some peace keeping operations and in environments where there are more mines than modern tani tank weapons (main difference between Iraq and Afghanistan, in Afghanistan there are actually not many anti tank weapons used, so even USMC seein bigger threat in IED's, deciced that their M1A1's in Afghanistan will get only C-IED belly armor, safe seats and IED jammers from TUSK kit, while side ERA tiles will not be used to not add additional weight, especially that as I said, no serious RPG/ATGM threat is seen there compared to Iraq).

I dont have much knowledge about this tank stuff, but the Russians used T 90s in the Chechen war right? And some of them even survived multiple RPG hits. ( everything from wiki )

 

[Damian]

I dont have much knowledge about this tank stuff, but the Russians used T 90s in the Chechen war right? And some of them even survived multiple RPG hits. ( everything from wiki )

It's complete BS, even Russians says no T-90/Object 188 (initially designated T-72BU), nor T-90A/Object 188A1/188A2 was used in Chechenya, only T-72B/Object 184 was used, some with 4S22 Kontakt-5 ERA (T-72B Model 1989 and Model 1990), so they are from outside a bit similiar to original T-90. In Chechenya were used also T-80BV/Object 219RV in some numbers.

And indeed, there were incidents when T-72B's with 4S20 Kontakt-1 ERA mounted, where hit multiple times from RPG's and even ATGM's and survived.

 

[pankaj nema]

Damain,

If India were to enter a war with Pakistan, her anti tank environment would not be same as Iraq or Afghanistan. It would be intense anti tank environment with every thing right from ditches, obstacles, mines, A/tk weapons, missiles, air, ICVs and tanks thrown in by both sides. It is going to be a battle of Krusk. There is neither spaces for manoeuvres nor the terrain for that.

Hence, any comparison with Iraq or Afghanistan would be dishonesty. Those were never tank battles ! One sided battles.

India Pakistan armoured war will be high intensity battles of attrition

We will also suffer losses but we shall win ;no doubt about it

It is India's armoured blitz that can cut Pakistan into two that gives Paki generals sleepless nights

However in the current doctrine of short swift and high intensity battles Indian armour
will only make shallow incursions into Pakistan

Our focus is to destroy the Paki war fighting capability ASAP through joint IAF and IA operations

 

[pankaj nema]

There is neither spaces for manoeuvres nor the terrain for that.

India pakistan Land border has plenty of space for tank battles

The INternational border in J and K ; whole of Punjab and Rajasthan and some areas of Kutch
are all suited for tank manuevers

Infact some time back an Army Lt gen ; Lt gen Lamba made a very provocative statement about
" A MASSIVE Armoured thrust into Rawalpindi "

This means that some areas close to the LOC are also conducive for Tank warfare

 

[p2prada]

There is a lot of space for maneuver warfare in our theater, let alone simple tank battles. We have seen the largest tank battles after WW2 on our borders.

 

[mki]

Morning,

Do you even bother to read the article, Do you know the history of Arjun , especially the last 5 years when the trials started?
Shut up and learn from people who actually know something. Dont call me a paki you ninocoomp.

I have read the article, and I know the history of Arjun"¦"¦. I am strongly advocating our indigenous products"¦"¦

I think you haven't understand what I mean to say"¦..

I said "simply compete Arjun mk2 with t90.... if arjun2 wins (I really hope our tank win) then put fullstop on T-90."

Let me make it clear for you"¦"¦ don't take pressure from foreign country"¦ who are here for business"¦"¦ compete products in fair trial"¦. Check deficiency and efficiency of products"¦ if our defense ministry and defense people taking bribe or what ever and putting our product at lower grade then it is our problem (we backstabbing our selves) and we have to fight with that"¦.. Russia is here for business and of course they will try all the way to make us buy their product"¦. Its not called backstab but it will call business"¦"¦. Our arjun is top line tank"¦.. which is build for us, to suite us and made by us"¦.. the people who opposing it they are also our people (I hope you know that all the defense people ( our armed force as well as ministry) are Indian"¦).

My dear friend I said "don't behave like paki". There is a big big difference between to be a paki and behave like paki"¦"¦ hope you are mature enough to understand the difference"¦.

 

[san]

The Army is not serious about Arjun. Why would they want DRDO to eat up R&D funds that may very well be spent on FMBT and T-90 instead?

Why we need to spend R&D on Russian T90? This is not logical to buy a sub-standard product and then spend money on R&D to make it world class. Better to buy the latest technology by an open Bid.The T90 deal allowed the russian tank industry to keep open during their worst time while we now need to spend additional amount to make it better as the original product is not upto the mark. It is almost same as the TATRA deal.

 

[Ray]

India pakistan Land border has plenty of space for tank battles

The INternational border in J and K ; whole of Punjab and Rajasthan and some areas of Kutch
are all suited for tank manuevers

Infact some time back an Army Lt gen ; Lt gen Lamba made a very provocative statement about
" A MASSIVE Armoured thrust into Rawalpindi "

This means that some areas close to the LOC are also conducive for Tank warfare

I wonder if there is large space for tank manouvres?

Maybe in the desert areas.

Canals and Built Up Areas restricts a free flowing armour manoeuvre.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Sir,

Tank battle can occur even in small places, like towns and villages..

 

[Adux]

I have read the article, and I know the history of Arjun"¦"¦. I am strongly advocating our indigenous products"¦"¦

I think you haven't understand what I mean to say"¦..

I said "simply compete Arjun mk2 with t90.... if arjun2 wins (I really hope our tank win) then put fullstop on T-90."

Let me make it clear for you"¦"¦ don't take pressure from foreign country"¦ who are here for business"¦"¦ compete products in fair trial"¦. Check deficiency and efficiency of products"¦ if our defense ministry and defense people taking bribe or what ever and putting our product at lower grade then it is our problem (we backstabbing our selves) and we have to fight with that"¦.. Russia is here for business and of course they will try all the way to make us buy their product"¦. Its not called backstab but it will call business"¦"¦. Our arjun is top line tank"¦.. which is build for us, to suite us and made by us"¦.. the people who opposing it they are also our people (I hope you know that all the defense people ( our armed force as well as ministry) are Indian"¦).

My dear friend I said "don't behave like paki". There is a big big difference between to be a paki and behave like paki"¦"¦ hope you are mature enough to understand the difference"¦.

Do you know how many competitive trails between T-90 and Arjun, and do you know Arjun has won all the time. The word 'backstab' is for the people here who consider 'russians as some good friend, who only wants the best for india', I hope you know the Russian lobby in India is not ethnicially Russian.

 

[mki]

Do you know how many competitive trails between T-90 and Arjun, and do you know Arjun has won all the time. The word 'backstab' is for the people here who consider 'russians as some good friend, who only wants the best for india', I hope you know the Russian lobby in India is not ethnicially Russian.

my dear friend.

thats what i mean... Russian lobby in india is not Ethnicially russian. they are our people who are trying do degrade Arjun... so you can not say Russians are backstabing.....

hoof thank god you finally get this.......

 

[sayareakd]

first let the Russian army get about 1000 T90 upgraded version then start a tank competition, till then get arjun MKI-2 ready. Remember T90 has lost comparative trials. So next trial should be after Russian army get those first. We are not Russian test lab for their weapons.

 

[sayareakd]

btw despite payment we didnt get complete TOT, russians are screwing us on ammo, as they are not giving us source code for the fire control computer. So we wont get upgrade at same cost. They will find ways and means to screw is big time on T series tank. Remember free is always costly.

 

[sayareakd]

We should give our budget directly to Russia, why should we first give it to army then it will give to Russia ?

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

i think this is a planted story.first of all the arjun mk2 mbt picture does not look real.as per reports it is to feature a sloped frontal turret and the tank should look like leo2a6.also drdo has time and again reiterated that they are hopeful for more orders of arjun mk2 as per commitment given by army vice chief(given the recommendation given by army is met in arjun mk2).the livefist report says that army is not interested in heavy tanks but army has specifically given order to drdo to have features in arjun mk2 which will increase it's weight like era,mine plough etc.the arjun mk2 with improved gun,armour,1500hp indegeneous engine,era,missile firing capacity,aps,sau etc is two generation ahead of t-90s and 1.5 generation ahead of t-90am.also an important factor is that even russia is not interested in t-90 and it's evolutions, and is gong to induct a new tank called armata.so if army want's to spend indian taxpayer's money in funding a obsolete foreign project instead of a latest generation indian invention then it is a criminal offence.

 

[p2prada]

Why we need to spend R&D on Russian T90? This is not logical to buy a sub-standard product and then spend money on R&D to make it world class. Better to buy the latest technology by an open Bid.The T90 deal allowed the russian tank industry to keep open during their worst time while we now need to spend additional amount to make it better as the original product is not upto the mark. It is almost same as the TATRA deal.

T-90 is world class, not sub standard. DRDO thinks Arjun is sub standard and blame it on OFB for it.

The T-90 deal may have helped the Russian tank industry, but the tank still came cheaper than what could have been.

The Pakistanis paid $2Million each for their 320 T-80s with 52 of them second hand. All that without ToT or license manufacture. We paid $2.5Million a piece for ToT and license.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Top DRDO sources tell Business Standard that identifying a production partner at the start of a project, and involving that partner through the development process, is essential for successfully delivering a high-tech product to the military. Instead of the current practice of the MoD arbitrarily nominating a DPSU or OFB factory to build the product, usually when development is almost completed, the DRDO would select a capable partner company from the outset, from the private sector if necessary.

Broadsword: DRDO wants say in procurements: Says indigenous weapon programmes should not be scuttled by substandard production




As per article, HVF manufacturing qualities are poor, therefore it goes both ways..

 

[pmaitra]

To spark off a discussion, we need to know what we are comparing to. What is standard when we evaluate whether T-90S is substandard or not?

Are we going to hold the M1A2 Abrams as standard? Are we going to hold the 'requirements' for Arjun Mk.I as standard, although the latter was late in induction?

Or are we going to use the present day threat perception, including possible opponents, such as tanks (T-80UD, Al-Khalid, Type 99), or man-portable projectiles (RPG, METIS, LAW, Carl Gustav), etc.?

 

[pmaitra]

Also, worth considering this thread here: http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/indian-army/36577-russian-backstab.html

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Merged both threads..